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Post by rgs318 on Mar 12, 2017 12:29:41 GMT -5
You may have missed it, but I will once again suggest "Snowflakes." Almost any other name will have people offended. We may also need to do away with any reference to or portrayal of a "Cross" since some find that most offensive indeed.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 12, 2017 13:02:33 GMT -5
If a Catholic college starts shying away from using a cross we will know absolutely that we are at the apocalypse. HC is a Catholic college and should emphasize and promote that at every opportunity. Those who are offended by that should attend or teach at a different college
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 12, 2017 13:06:09 GMT -5
Hasn't the KKK used a burning Cross as a symbol? Yes, it has. The burning Cross was not an original part of Klan ceremonies and was added later, but it is there and I can guarantee that it will offend some. I would also say, "So what!" Keep the Cross and the Crusader, preserve tradition and link to the faith that helped to establish our college. In a PC age is this still possible?
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Post by ncaam on Mar 12, 2017 14:29:27 GMT -5
HC Crusaders now and forever. Crossmen and Iggies? You can't be serious. Sota, is political correctness invoked only when something opposes what you believe? Catholic priests are currently not in vogue. Should we get rid of them too?
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Post by beaven302 on Mar 12, 2017 14:36:23 GMT -5
You may have missed it, but I will once again suggest "Snowflakes." Almost any other name will have people offended. We may also need to do away with any reference to or portrayal of a "Cross" since some find that most offensive indeed. Good point. Almost any name that refers to some sort of human being can be interpreted in a negative way; - Spartans -- homicidal militarists who oppressed the hapless helots;
- Trojans -- kidnappers who snatched a young Greek woman and wouldn't give her back;
- Sooners -- stole Indian lands in Oklahama;
- Gladiators -- homicidal thugs;
- Jayhawk[er]s -- murderous guerrilla fighters along the Kansas-Missouri border;
- Red Raiders -- conjures up images of all sorts of bloodthirsty marauders;
- Vikings -- more thieving, killing marauders;
- Boilermakers -- their product helps cause air pollution.
The list just goes on an on. Apart from snowflakes, perhaps a safe choice would be some type of vegetarian animal or a plant.
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Post by CHC8485 on Mar 12, 2017 15:07:20 GMT -5
Again, some history of the name for context college.holycross.edu/departments/archives/exhibits/crusader/crusader_pages/1920s-1930s/09-29-1925.pdfcollege.holycross.edu/departments/archives/exhibits/crusader/crusader_pages/1920s-1930s/10-06-1925.pdfAnd I'd say that if there is a desire to change because we think the idea of Crusaders somehow does not embody what we aspire to be, then change. But don't change becasue someone is or might be offended. I'll close with what I posted back in June the last time we discussed this, following the Brooks-Mulledy decision Said the following to my sister in an e-mail between her ('78) my brother ('83) and my self. She spent an adult "gap year" in Europe a couple of years ago, based in France and found herself visiting many sites of slaughters in Southwestern France. She was questioning the appropriateness of the Crusader as a mascot for Holy Cross. My brother, a PhD historian, gave some historical context as has been presented here and the broader meaning of the term. I responded as follows:
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 12, 2017 16:32:35 GMT -5
Tom, with respect to Mulledy, the final report referenced and addressed the individual comments made by alumni. As I recall, the alumni were not identified by name but by when they attended, e.g., an alumnus from the early 1980s wrote '........'.
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Post by Tom on Mar 12, 2017 18:18:03 GMT -5
Tom, with respect to Mulledy, the final report referenced and addressed the individual comments made by alumni. As I recall, the alumni were not identified by name but by when they attended, e.g., an alumnus from the early 1980s wrote '........'. I kind of covered myself. .. "Someone else had a daughter graduate about 5 years ago. She was invited to be one of the alums to discuss issue about Mulledy Hall. She was upset to report that the discussion groups were a total sham. Contrary to what had been reported, there was zero alumni input into the decision to rename Mulledy, or at least at the meeting she was invited to. She simply got to listen to a talk about why it was anti-HC to have a building named after Fr Mulledy. Once again there no opportunity to voice a dissenting view" I reported one person's experience. Maybe other meetings had more give and take
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Post by timholycross on Mar 12, 2017 20:17:44 GMT -5
I suggest we don't. The bigots and the intransigents are the people insisting on the name change. Grow a pair and keep it.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Mar 13, 2017 5:00:29 GMT -5
Tom, with respect to Mulledy, the final report referenced and addressed the individual comments made by alumni. As I recall, the alumni were not identified by name but by when they attended, e.g., an alumnus from the early 1980s wrote '........'. I kind of covered myself. .. "Someone else had a daughter graduate about 5 years ago. She was invited to be one of the alums to discuss issue about Mulledy Hall. She was upset to report that the discussion groups were a total sham. Contrary to what had been reported, there was zero alumni input into the decision to rename Mulledy, or at least at the meeting she was invited to. She simply got to listen to a talk about why it was anti-HC to have a building named after Fr Mulledy. Once again there no opportunity to voice a dissenting view" I reported one person's experience. Maybe other meetings had more give and take And yet ultimately his name stayed on the building.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 13, 2017 5:05:48 GMT -5
This link may have been posted earlier, but I do not remember seeing it. If you want to read the initial letter to the Crusader you can read it and some student editorials at: theholycrosscrusader.com
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 13, 2017 7:50:34 GMT -5
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 13, 2017 8:32:57 GMT -5
When looking at the 11 'crusades', it isn't immediately clear what virtues or achievements a 'Crusader' seeks to emulate.
People's Crusade, poorly equipped peasants, annihilated. No knights on this Crusade.
First Crusade succeeded (However,the period of counting the Omer, between Pesach and Shavuos, when the massacres [of Jews in the First Crusade] occurred, became fixed in Jewish law as a time for mourning.). What the Knights Templar wore is unknown.
Second Crusade failed. Knights Templar authorized by Pope to wear white tunics, but specifically directed not to wear crosses.
Third Crusade failed. Knights Templar allowed to wear red crosses on their white tunics by the Pope..
Fourth Crusade failed. Many of the crusaders were excommunicated for attacking fellow Catholics/Christians at the start of the crusade. The crusaders eventually decided to attack (successfully) Constantinople, and behaved badly (an understatement) toward Orthodox priests and nuns, and churches of the Eastern rite. . Children's Crusade, unarmed, naive innocents who either died or were sold into slavery.
Fifth Crusade failed.
Sixth Crusade succeeded. Achieved by diplomacy, not force of arms., The Crusade was led by an excommunicated emperor, Frederic II
Seventh Crusade, abandoned.
Eighth Crusade, abandoned.
Ninth Crusade, abandoned.
By my count, that's a 'winning' percentage of .181, and if one omits a 'success' achieved in the course of a large-scale massacre, a winning percentage of .090. By that arithmetic, a 'crusader' mascot commemorates a bunch of losers.
As for the Knights Templar, abolished by Clement V in 1311. The order lives on as freemasons, and the highest level of masonry, 33rd degree, are known as Knights Templar.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Mar 13, 2017 9:04:24 GMT -5
Sader Fan, the point of my sarcastic post earlier in the thread was to beg the question "where do we draw the line?" As with any PC police (I'm not an officer, but I do appreciate what they're trying to do) I am totally against trying to protect the frailties of any and all denominations. The point of free speech (not talking hate speech here, which can and should be blocked) is that all ideas can be presented, and the "best" ones can win. If you are offended, overcome it with your way of thinking or opinion, or don't listen. A cartoonish mascot of a knight with the name of a Jesuit saint, the motto of a Roman emperor who chose faith to win in battle, or an action word meaning "to lead or take part in an energetic and organized campaign concerning a social, political, or religious issue," are not offensive.
We should spend more time finding out why people are so easily offended and helping them figure out how to get over it, rather than bend to the loudest mouth or the weakest link.
I also think if ISIS or Al Qaeda didn't call the US/allies' troops "Crusaders" in every diatribe, almost without exception, there would be less offense taken.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Mar 13, 2017 9:08:05 GMT -5
When looking at the 11 'crusades', it isn't immediately clear what virtues or achievements a 'Crusader' seeks to emulate. People's Crusade, poorly equipped peasants, annihilated. No knights on this Crusade. First Crusade succeeded (However,the period of counting the Omer, between Pesach and Shavuos, when the massacres [of Jews in the First Crusade] occurred, became fixed in Jewish law as a time for mourning.). What the Knights Templar wore is unknown. Second Crusade failed. Knights Templar authorized by Pope to wear white tunics, but specifically directed not to wear crosses. Third Crusade failed. Knights Templar allowed to wear red crosses on their white tunics by the Pope.. Fourth Crusade failed. Many of the crusaders were excommunicated for attacking fellow Catholics/Christians at the start of the crusade. The crusaders eventually decided to attack (successfully) Constantinople, and behaved badly (an understatement) toward Orthodox priests and nuns, and churches of the Eastern rite. . Children's Crusade, unarmed, naive innocents who either died or were sold into slavery. Fifth Crusade failed. Sixth Crusade succeeded. Achieved by diplomacy, not force of arms., The Crusade was led by an excommunicated emperor, Frederic II Seventh Crusade, abandoned. Eighth Crusade, abandoned. Ninth Crusade, abandoned. By my count, that's a 'winning' percentage of .181, and if one omits a 'success' achieved in the course of a large-scale massacre, a winning percentage of .090. By that arithmetic, a 'crusader' mascot commemorates a bunch of losers. As for the Knights Templar, abolished by Clement V in 1311. The order lives on as freemasons, and the highest level of masonry, 33rd degree, are known as Knights Templar. I can appreciate your standpoint on theses Crusades (capital "C") being abject failures in their moral directions... but I would argue your point about winning percentages (probably the only time I would argue numbers with you!) A noble cause is worth emulating regardless of the number of times it is successful. Countless martyrs may have been killed before they can see their mission succeed, only to inspire others many years later who strive for the cause. Again, while the specific proper noun campaigns above may have been misguided, let's not say that a failed cause is one not worth exemplifying.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Mar 13, 2017 9:17:37 GMT -5
Before you know it, the mascots of all colleges will be fruits and vegetables.
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Post by ncaam on Mar 13, 2017 10:50:26 GMT -5
Western civ/Christianity/Catholics have been at war with Islam since at least 700 AD. The Crusaders were a piece of that long and ongoing war. Proud to be a Crusader.
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Post by Sader Fan on Mar 13, 2017 11:53:41 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong. I am not personally offended by using "Crusaders". However, it is branding that is at issue. We can have all the great reasons in the world to keep the Crusader as our mascot and team name but if a significant segment is offended by "Crusaders", why keep it?
The bottom line at HC is to attract talented students and faculty, get grants and donations, follow a moral code consistent with the Jesuit tradition and maintain a positive image. I think a name change would advance all of these goals.
While some may applaud our standing up to the "PC" forces, others will condemn it. I believe we adopted the name "Crusaders" in good faith many years ago but why keep a divisive brand name? The pros of changing outweigh the cons.
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Post by beaven302 on Mar 13, 2017 12:33:11 GMT -5
As was made clear in Western Civ at HC back in the '60s, there was little that was noble or worth emulating in any of the crusades. Pope Urban II called the First Crusade largely to get the warring, homicidal nobility to take their violent conflicts out of Europe. As for the participants, their motivations were a mixed bag of a desire to put the Holy Land under Christian rule, adventure, and personal or political gain. Also, in addition to the list of Crusades in another post, there was the Albigensian Crusade waged against the Cathar heretics in southern France and the Northern Crusades in which the Teutonic Knights warred against the Baltic tribes who had the temerity not to convert to Christianity. Like the Middle Eastern crusades, these events made perfect sense to the participants, but appear to be little more than murder and mayhem to those alive today.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 13, 2017 13:26:01 GMT -5
At Georgetown, Mulledy might still be Mulledy, and McSherry might still be McSherry if the university had not converted the former, unused Jesuit residence (named after Mulledy, who, IIRC, built it) into a student residence. Once student research revealed Mulledy's past role, it became more than a bit much to have black students living in a hall named after him. Handwriting on the wall? www.mdsj.org/news-detail?TN=NEWS-20160418020550^^^ The Maryland province. As for the man who first coined the name 'Crusader, he was [Rufus] Stanley Woodward [III?.], a native of Worcester, and a graduate of Amherst. Son of Rufus Stanley Woodward (jr? II?) and Stella Brooks. (And quite likely, in the Irish vernacular of my mother, a 'black Protestant' (which had apparently come to mean any Protestant in a predominately Catholic environment, with negative connotations)) A very noted and accomplished sports columnist. www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40114-2003Dec29.html
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Post by timholycross on Mar 13, 2017 13:57:24 GMT -5
Before you know it, the mascots of all colleges will be fruits and vegetables. Well at least the phrase "Hoya Saxa" and the nickname "Hoya" are safe... and I don't think anyone is offended by bulldogs, either.
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Post by ncaam on Mar 13, 2017 14:05:34 GMT -5
Keeping Islam from conquering Western Civilization was/is a noble goal. Only because the Crusaders and others like them fought defensive wars against Islam were we able to sit in Beaven studying about it.
Wars were ugly back then (and now). Islam raped, pillaged and took slaves. The West fought back with ugly tactics as well. Islam was on their way to park their horses at the Vatican when Jan Sobieski came to the rescue at Vienna. His heroics are marked by the phrase, "I came, I saw, God conquered."
Sader fan, why the avatar?
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Post by Tom on Mar 13, 2017 15:51:10 GMT -5
Keeping Islam from conquering Western Civilization was/is a noble goal. Only because the Crusaders and others like them fought defensive wars against Islam were we able to sit in Beaven studying about it. Wars were ugly back then (and now). Islam raped, pillaged and took slaves. The West fought back with ugly tactics as well. Islam was on their way to park their horses at the Vatican when Jan Sobieski came to the rescue at Vienna. His heroics are marked by the phrase, "I came, I saw, God conquered." Sader fan, why the avatar? As men and women for others, I'm thinking our crusade is more about the actual meaning of the verb "Lead or take part in a vigorous campaign for social, political, or religious change" - ideally that change being for the greater good. If you start narrowing the focus to a particular crusade, there might be debate about whether or not the goal of that crusade was in fact "good". I can't imagine much debate over having our alums out trying to change the world to make it a better place
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 13, 2017 15:54:05 GMT -5
Fantastic post, Tom--beautifully stated
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Post by Chu Chu on Mar 13, 2017 17:45:15 GMT -5
In medical school I played on an intramural team known as the Nads. Our cheer, of course, was "Go Nads".
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