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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 21, 2017 13:40:12 GMT -5
140 characters is the new standard. The acceptance letter reads as if it is a compilation of boilerplate sentences, individually chosen and included to match the accepted students profile. _______________________________ As has been noted, we discussed the perceived failings of HC admissions on the old board, and at length. One of my main, current complaints is that I understood that Ann had been given specific direction to increase the geographic diversity of the enrolling classes, and that a specific numerical goal, expressed as a percentage, had been set for international students.Based on the limited statistics for the class of 2020, Ann failed to achieve either objective, and, in fact, the class of 2020 was less geographically diverse than the class of 2019. Regression to the old days and the old ways. I am convinced that if it wasn't for athletics, geographic diversity would indeed be a hollow effort on the part of admissions. If Ann can't carry out the policies of the college, then she should retire. Was the diversity of the qualified application pool sufficient to carry out a realistic increase in geographic diversity ? There is no way of knowing that, given the paucity of data made publicly available by HC admissions. But for comparison, Boston College class of 2020 applications / acceptances / enrollment CA 3514 /1014 / 173 FL 1061 / 394 / 90 TX 631 / 217 / 47 WA 349 / 112 / 46 International 4086 / 814 / 179 MA 4179 / 1248 / 513 NJ 2521 / 796 / 242 Of BC's total class of 2020 enrollment of 2359, 21.7 percent are from MA By comparison, Wellesley class of 2019 is 13 percent from MA BU class of 2019 is 16 percent from MA Tufts class of 2020 is 20.5 percent from MA Mount Holyoke class of 2019 is 23 percent from MA Northeastern's class of 2020 is 24 percent from MA Brandeis class of 2019 is 25 percent from MA Clark class of 2019 is 36 percent from MA WPI class of 2019 is 42 percent from MA HC class of 2020 is 43 percent from MA Stonehill class of 2020 is 59 percent from MA Why can all these other schools in MA seemingly find sufficient qualified applicants from outside of MA to admit and enroll? (I omitted Harvard, MIT, Amherst, and Williams, because that would simply be piling on.) Why is HC much closer to Stonehill then it is to BC???
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 21, 2017 14:20:46 GMT -5
This does not explain every shortcoming of HC's admissions department and student body that some posters perceive, but doesn't the facts that Holy Cross is aCatholic college and that Massachusetts has a higher percentage of Catholics than the USA in total suggest that HC may attract a higher percentage of students from Massachusetts than some other MA schools that are non-Catholic? I am aware that boston college is also a Catholic school and that it has a different percentage of students from the Commonwealth.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 21, 2017 15:15:48 GMT -5
This does not explain every shortcoming of HC's admissions department and student body that some posters perceive, but doesn't the facts that Holy Cross is aCatholic college and that Massachusetts has a higher percentage of Catholics than the USA in total suggest that HC may attract a higher percentage of students from Massachusetts than some other MA schools that are non-Catholic? I am aware that boston college is also a Catholic school and that it has a different percentage of students from the Commonwealth. Holy Cross is more Catholic than BC, and more Catholic than Georgetown (Only 50 percent of the undergraduates at Georgetown identify as Catholic, IIRC) But if Ann is relying on Catholic high schools in MA and Catholic families to fill the enrollment, that hand is a losing one., The number of Catholic high schools has decreased, and the percentage of Catholic parents who insist that their son/daughter attend a Catholic institution is also in decline. The archdiocese is not closing parishes left and right because attendance at mass remains robust. Percentage in-state at other Jesuit schools (plus Villanova)either class of 2020, or 2019.. 15 percent Loyola Baltimore 17 percent Villanova 27 percent Fairfield 33 percent Univ of Scranton 39 percent Fordham 44 percent Gonzaga 45 percent St. Joe's 58 percent Santa Clara The re-accreditation committee observed some years ago that HC's continued reliance on its traditional recruitment base would lead to a decline in applicant quality, because the Northeast, Catholic demographic was in decline. Their observation seems prophetic.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 21, 2017 17:48:42 GMT -5
I am not defending Ann and I am not privy to her strategy, I was just trying to suggest one factor of many that create the student body mix
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Post by hcgrad94 on Mar 21, 2017 18:48:35 GMT -5
Was the diversity of the qualified application pool sufficient to carry out a realistic increase in geographic diversity ? There is no way of knowing that, given the paucity of data made publicly available by HC admissions. But for comparison, Boston College class of 2020 applications / acceptances / enrollment CA 3514 /1014 / 173 FL 1061 / 394 / 90 TX 631 / 217 / 47 WA 349 / 112 / 46 International 4086 / 814 / 179 MA 4179 / 1248 / 513 NJ 2521 / 796 / 242 Of BC's total class of 2020 enrollment of 2359, 21.7 percent are from MA By comparison, Wellesley class of 2019 is 13 percent from MA BU class of 2019 is 16 percent from MA Tufts class of 2020 is 20.5 percent from MA Mount Holyoke class of 2019 is 23 percent from MA Northeastern's class of 2020 is 24 percent from MA Brandeis class of 2019 is 25 percent from MA Clark class of 2019 is 36 percent from MA WPI class of 2019 is 42 percent from MA HC class of 2020 is 43 percent from MA Stonehill class of 2020 is 59 percent from MA Why can all these other schools in MA seemingly find sufficient qualified applicants from outside of MA to admit and enroll? (I omitted Harvard, MIT, Amherst, and Williams, because that would simply be piling on.) Why is HC much closer to Stonehill then it is to BC??? [b Being Catholic AND a College is a tricky thing. By definition that precludes a certain subset of kids who don't want a Catholic school and/or want a University setting. Comparing us to Tufts and BU is really meaningless in that way.
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Post by sarasota on Mar 21, 2017 20:27:59 GMT -5
gold watch for AMcD. She must have pictures.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 21, 2017 20:31:06 GMT -5
I am not defending Ann and I am not privy to her strategy, I was just trying to suggest one factor of many that create the student body mix IIRC, the discussions about Ann's presumed 'strategy' on the old board centered on these aspects: a.) A dis-inclination to engage in mass promotional mailings, and to not use PSAT / National Merit scores to identify potential applications in a pro-active way. b.) A reliance on school visits to promote HC, most of which seem to be to schools that might be characterized as an old boys / old girls network, where administrators and counselors have worked with Ann & HC in the past. Nearly all the school visits, outside of New England tend to be to Catholic / private high schools. c.) School visits to states with large populations are often widely scattered, e.g., FL, or non-existent, e.g., TX. d.) Gimmicks, such as SAT optional. I characterize it as a gimmick because it significantly boosted applications, but as other schools go SAT optional, the advantage is lost. And I have difficulty believing that such a low percentage of enrolling students submitted standardized test scores, yet these students had high class rankings in their high schools. Something seems amiss. e.) A great emphasis and dependence on early admissions to fill the class. About half the class of 2020 was filled by early admits. For Santa Clara, 17 percent of the class was early admits. What that means though is that HC had a yield of about 16 percent of the regular-decision admits. That's a poor yield. (Note" e.) wasn't discussed on the old board.) .
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Post by Xmassader on Mar 21, 2017 22:23:09 GMT -5
PP As to your point (b), this may be happening in the East but not in metro Detroit. With 5 all boys and 5 all girls Catholic high schools available for a visit, I don't think that an HC admissions person has visited in over 25 years. And this includes U-D Jesuit and Loyola---the two Jesuit HSs. When I spoke with Fr. Kiser, the U-D Jesuit president, last year, he confirmed no contact from HC admissions. I suggested a "trade" in which he would encourage the HC admissions staff to come to metro Detroit and, in turn, the HC development staff could give U-D some pointers on increasing its 35% alumni giving level to HC's 50%+. Still waiting on both counts.
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Post by ncaam on Mar 22, 2017 6:44:22 GMT -5
HC suffers from tuition $$$ and lack of robust biz program.
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Post by hchoops on Mar 22, 2017 8:35:47 GMT -5
PP As to your point (b), this may be happening in the East but not in metro Detroit. With 5 all boys and 5 all girls Catholic high schools available for a visit, I don't think that an HC admissions person has visited in over 25 years. And this includes U-D Jesuit and Loyola---the two Jesuit HSs. When I spoke with Fr. Kiser, the U-D Jesuit president, last year, he confirmed no contact from HC admissions. I suggested a "trade" in which he would encourage the HC admissions staff to come to metro Detroit and, in turn, the HC development staff could give U-D some pointers on increasing its 35% alumni giving level to HC's 50%+. Still waiting on both counts. I would think that 35% to a HS is pretty good, maybe favorably comparable to 50% to a college a terrible fact about admissions not visiting Detroit
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Post by hcpride on Mar 22, 2017 9:45:02 GMT -5
d.) Gimmicks, such as SAT optional. I characterize it as a gimmick because it significantly boosted applications, but as other schools go SAT optional, the advantage is lost. And I have difficulty believing that such a low percentage of enrolling students submitted standardized test scores, yet these students had high class rankings in their high schools. Something seems amiss. e.) A great emphasis and dependence on early admissions to fill the class. About half the class of 2020 was filled by early admits. For Santa Clara, 17 percent of the class was early admits. What that means though is that HC had a yield of about 16 percent of the regular-decision admits. That's a poor yield. (Note" e.) wasn't discussed on the old board.) . As to point 'e', there is no doubt that by admitting about 50% of an incoming class via early decision (at a whopping 75% admission rate BTW) HC gains some statistical advantages and (getting to those 'yield' and 'selectivity' stats ) this cuts the slots to fill out of 6600 applicants essentially in half. Of course, with a very high number of recruited varsity athletes (32% of an enrolled class, if Forbes is to be believed) generally entering HC via early decision it is fairly easy to see how they can get to such a high early decision number. In contrast, Santa Clara is reported by Forbes as having 7% of their students as varsity athletes. A very high number of 'committed' varsity athletes at HC is certainly a large step in the direction of a very high early decision number at HC - I assume admissions folks are very aware of that). One suspects both 'd.)' (the test-optional admissions strategy) and 'e.)' (the early admissions emphasis strategy) both yield statistical advantages, if not actual applicant quality advantages.
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Post by sarasota on Mar 22, 2017 11:37:22 GMT -5
Maybe all AMcD is adept at is gaming the stats.
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Post by alum on Mar 22, 2017 12:27:28 GMT -5
Maybe all AMcD is adept at is gaming the stats. I don't think she is good at gaming the stats at all. If she was, she would not have briefly added the extra essay a few years ago which plummeted applications. If she was good at gaming the stats, she would spend a lot of money attracting applications. She might even offer free applications to anyone who comes for a tour or interview session. There are ways of running up the numbers and I don't think she pursues them. That leads me to believe that she and the other powers that be are either happy with the quality of their classes or are skimping on recruiting. I hope I am wrong on both fronts but I don't think I am.
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Post by sarasota on Mar 22, 2017 13:06:22 GMT -5
Like all top-down organizations, it's not always easy to know who the puppet master(s) REALLY is (are).
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Post by hcgrad94 on Mar 22, 2017 15:28:57 GMT -5
Would be fascinated to hear specific examples of colleges and universities that aren't run in this "top down" manner you continuously attach to HC. Thanks.
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Post by sarasota on Mar 22, 2017 15:58:35 GMT -5
hcgrad94- I believe the real power is much more concentrated at HC than in other colleges. The requirement that the Prez be a Jesuit preserves this concentration.
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Post by CHC8485 on Mar 22, 2017 16:22:33 GMT -5
OK. So tell me again, where is this requirement that the President of the College be a Jesuit. And if you tell me it's in the Charter, please provide the clause or paragraph because you've posted this before and I've provided you a link to the Charter where I could not find such a requirement, asked you to point it out to me. You have yet to do that, but you still keep insisting that the President must be a Jesuit.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Mar 22, 2017 16:40:38 GMT -5
hcgrad94- I believe the real power is much more concentrated at HC than in other colleges. The requirement that the Prez be a Jesuit preserves this concentration. Okay great could you just give me other examples specifically that would be really helpful thanks.
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Post by sarasota on Mar 22, 2017 18:40:35 GMT -5
8485- Sometimes, tradition can be so strong that it need not be codified. Many other Catholic colleges have lay President and are doing fine. Only HC getting its first lay Prez will prove me wrong.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 22, 2017 19:02:40 GMT -5
hcpride, you are correct that the relatively high number of recruited athletes at HC would drive up the early admit numbers. However, I don't think that's the whole explanation. When I have more time tomorrow, I'll speculate further.
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Post by CHC8485 on Mar 22, 2017 19:37:41 GMT -5
Ooops. My bad. I forgot that requirement can sometimes mean tradition or strong preference.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 22, 2017 19:56:16 GMT -5
8485- Sometimes, tradition can be so strong that it need not be codified. Many other Catholic colleges have lay President and are doing fine. Only HC getting its first lay Prez will prove me wrong. Holy Cross has already had a lay president:Frank Vellacio
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Post by sarasota on Mar 22, 2017 22:56:21 GMT -5
He was interim only and you know that.
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Post by crossbball13 on Mar 23, 2017 6:09:34 GMT -5
hcpride, you are correct that the relatively high number of recruited athletes at HC would drive up the early admit numbers. However, I don't think that's the whole explanation. When I have more time tomorrow, I'll speculate further. I challenge you to say 1 good thing about holy cross
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Post by hcpride on Mar 23, 2017 6:20:53 GMT -5
hcpride, you are correct that the relatively high number of recruited athletes at HC would drive up the early admit numbers. However, I don't think that's the whole explanation. When I have more time tomorrow, I'll speculate further. I meant to explain that the enormous (relative to size, of course) number of committed varsity athletes (32% of HC student body) heading to HC make up a large number within the very large percentage of early admits at HC. Much has been written on the statistical/institutional advantages of large (and in the case of HC, very large) numbers of early commits. The fact that we admit 75% of our early decision applicants is another very large number. Obviously HC admissions office has tried their best strategies to mitigate - and failing that, to obscure - our slide in academic admission standards and key statistical categories. (Of course, HC is still a good school with a good reputation, attracts a good number of very nice young people with solid academic credentials, and holds a good USNWR Liberal Arts College ranking. While not the same level on all aforementioned fronts as 35 years ago, nevertheless a tied for 32 in USNWR (Liberal Arts College) ranking indicates things are working out OK thus far at my alma mater. That is not by accident or luck when one considers the macro forces at play in society, rising costs, prospective student ready access to data, and competition from other colleges.)
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