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Post by sarasota on Aug 28, 2017 11:45:43 GMT -5
I was in a FOUR man cell in Wheeler Freshman Year (Wheeler 337). Worked out fine. But we were guys. Got along. The suites that kids get today are Plush by our standards. And we went to Mass every morning in the deep snow! And there were no TVs, no carpets, no phones, no GIRLS. And we LIKED it that way! We also had Corridor Rosary. Hard on your knees on that linoleum floor. One corridor phone. I answered the phone one time, "Sherwood Forrest. Robin Hood speaking." It was the President of the College. Gulp!
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Post by beaven302 on Aug 28, 2017 13:54:43 GMT -5
In 1959 the construction of Rt 290 stopped within view of the campus. Rt 9 was the usual way into Boston. We knew every point along the way into Boston. The way into NY Metro area was down Rt 95 (The CT Pike), which had tolls, or down 5/15. Rt 84 did not yet exist. If you wanted to go across the Tappan Zee into Jersey and PA you went down 95 to the Cross Westchester Pkwy. The construction of 84 was a godsent. On the way down 5/15 there was a restaurant with a waitress who had a condition you might call Mammaries Giganticus. On vacation getaway day your car full of NJ guys would naturally stop at that that restaurant and there would already be HC guys in there. I kid you not. Remember, no girls during the school week, on Sundays girls allowed only in the dorm lobbies, no cars except for Seniors. Can you spell h*rney? The abrupt end of I 290 by HC became a local campaign issue in the mid-60s, with one candidate running radio spots on WORC bemoaning that it "started nowhere and ended at the Burncoat Wall." As for Rte 9, the roadside scenery has changed for the worse. Back in the day, there used to be a distinct break in development between Shrewsbury and Framingham-Natick. Now it's commercial establishments all the way. The old 9-20 Motel used to have wooded areas for neighbors -- now it's a shopping center. Finally, the accursed toll booths on the Connecticut Turnpike may be long gone, but the often-heavy traffic now costs more time than the old toll booths ever did.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Aug 29, 2017 5:12:25 GMT -5
When the CDS comes out later this year, we will be able to ascertain how much the college may have gamed the admissions process for the class of 2021.
In theory, if the yield was unexpectedly large, no one should have been pulled off the waiting list. If we discover that a significant number of those enrolling came off the waiting list, then we can conclude that HC purposefully increased the size of the class by admitting full pays off the waiting list, and only full pays. That approach would tend to dilute the academic credentials of the enrolling class.
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Post by sader1970 on Aug 29, 2017 5:41:30 GMT -5
And we could conclude that Holy Cross is lying about "needs blind admissions," too, right?
As this is the College's stated public policy:
So, PP, with this nefarious plot, the motivation for doing this would be what? Purposely deceive everyone about the poor quality of incoming students? To increase the income stream to offset the building program, like the CAC, Contemplative Center, the new field house, another new dorm? Or, perhaps $$$ so we can pay the expected increase in expenses for joining hockey East?
Would be interested in your further speculation as to motivation here.
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Post by matunuck on Aug 29, 2017 7:04:18 GMT -5
HC was expecting class of 785 but ended up with 820
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Post by crossbball13 on Aug 29, 2017 8:55:22 GMT -5
When the CDS comes out later this year, we will be able to ascertain how much the college may have gamed the admissions process for the class of 2021. In theory, if the yield was unexpectedly large, no one should have been pulled off the waiting list. If we discover that a significant number of those enrolling came off the waiting list, then we can conclude that HC purposefully increased the size of the class by admitting full pays off the waiting list, and only full pays. That approach would tend to dilute the academic credentials of the enrolling class. Uhhh what? Another miss by PP.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Aug 29, 2017 9:04:44 GMT -5
And we could conclude that Holy Cross is lying about "needs blind admissions," too, right? As this is the College's stated public policy: So, PP, with this nefarious plot, the motivation for doing this would be what? Purposely deceive everyone about the poor quality of incoming students? To increase the income stream to offset the building program, like the CAC, Contemplative Center, the new field house, another new dorm? Or, perhaps $$$ so we can pay the expected increase in expenses for joining hockey East? Would be interested in your further speculation as to motivation here. IIRC, Frank V. or one of the other members of TPTB said not that long ago that HC needed to re-examine its need-blind policy, because the college was having trouble in being able to afford the commitment. (PP will note that the college's endowment is too low for a financial aid program that's competitive with its New England peers.) In the following breath, Frank V. said the college would seek more full pays. So in my nefarious plotting, one way to secure more full pays is to take them off the waiting list. As I postulated. if we (the royal we) discover that HC took a significant number off the waiting list for a class that was already at or over the target enrollment, HC would not be selecting wait-listed applicants with financial need; --that would only exacerbate the financial aid woes. In 2016, HC's financial aid amounted to nearly $51 million. The distribution from the endowment, for all purposes, was $26.5 million. Who made up for the $25 million difference? Some/most? of it came from the tuition payments of full pays. (To obtain a number more precise than $25 million, one would have to know the value of Pell grants, Federal, state loans, etc. in the financial aid amount. One would also need to know how much of the $26.5 million was for financial aid.) Contrast this with Bowdoin. Bowdoin's financial aid total was $33.4 million. The distribution from the endowment (for all purposes) was $50 million. .
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Post by sader1970 on Aug 29, 2017 9:24:04 GMT -5
PP, you may well have spoken to Frank or others in TPTB category more recently than I. The last I heard on multiple fronts was that the HC BOT was committed to maintaining "needs blind admission" policy and it was one of their highest priorities. Believe I heard that as recently as last year from Fr. B. Where we have common ground was that they had concerns about being able to maintain that policy going forward but they seem to believe that that policy is part of what makes HC a truly Jesuit/Catholic institution that there is no discrimination for those who are financially challenged to attend. They also take great pride in being one of the very few schools that have this policy and feel that they are among very elite company while recognizing that Holy Cross does not have the financial wherewithal of those other schools. Two other comments: Having sent my own son there more 20 years ago, Holy Cross seemed to have a significantly different view of what financial aid we needed as a family than I thought the need was. My second son went to Fairfield and they were a little more generous IMO. The second comment is: is there any possibility that the "story" Holy Cross is peddling about this subject is accurate - the algorithm just didn't work? I mean, c'mon, this can certainly be tied to Ann McDermott, right?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Aug 29, 2017 9:34:33 GMT -5
And we could conclude that Holy Cross is lying about "needs blind admissions," too, right? As this is the College's stated public policy: So, PP, with this nefarious plot, the motivation for doing this would be what? Purposely deceive everyone about the poor quality of incoming students? To increase the income stream to offset the building program, like the CAC, Contemplative Center, the new field house, another new dorm? Or, perhaps $$$ so we can pay the expected increase in expenses for joining hockey East? Would be interested in your further speculation as to motivation here. IIRC, Frank V. or one of the other members of TPTB said not that long ago that HC needed to re-examine its need-blind policy, because the college was having trouble in being able to afford the commitment. (PP will note that the college's endowment is too low for a financial aid program that's competitive with its New England peers.) In the following breath, Frank V. said the college would seek more full pays. So in my nefarious plotting, one way to secure more full pays is to take them off the waiting list. As I postulated. if we (the royal we) discover that HC took a significant number off the waiting list for a class that was already at or over the target enrollment, HC would not be selecting wait-listed applicants with financial need; --that would only exacerbate the financial aid woes. In 2016, HC's financial aid amounted to nearly $51 million. The distribution from the endowment, for all purposes, was $26.5 million. Who made up for the $25 million difference? Some/most? of it came from the tuition payments of full pays. (To obtain a number more precise than $25 million, one would have to know the value of Pell grants, Federal, state loans, etc. in the financial aid amount. One would also need to know how much of the $26.5 million was for financial aid.) Contrast this with Bowdoin. Bowdoin's financial aid total was $33.4 million. The distribution from the endowment (for all purposes) was $50 million. . Do students submit financial aid applications along with their admission applications? I was thinking that the financial aid process began after acceptance? If so, would the College, under the "nefarious" scenario, start coding wait list students by wealthy zip code (or another such method) to try to identify the full pays?
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Post by lou on Aug 29, 2017 10:00:31 GMT -5
PP, you may well have spoken to Frank or others in TPTB category more recently than I. It wan't that long ago ... similar comments were made at the 2017 reunion weekend
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Aug 29, 2017 10:04:11 GMT -5
Students submit financial aid application with their regular application. At the time of acceptance, the college indicates the amount of financial aid it is willing to offer. The HC financial package may consist of grants, loans, work-study etc. According to HC, the max Federal loan amount is $27000 for four years.
One reason I used the Bowdoin example is Bowdoin does not include students loans in its financial aid package. (Parents may take out loans though.)
From Bowdoin's financial aid website: __________________________________
Thanks Lou. I hoped I wasn't coming down with a make-up-the-facts affliction.
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Post by hcpride on Aug 29, 2017 12:12:53 GMT -5
FWIW, HC does not have a great financial aid reputation among prospective students. This is in part due to their inclusion of loans as financial aid - notwithstanding their advertised "We meet 100 percent of accepted students’ demonstrated need." Many prospective students see this as a thoroughly misleading quote.
@pakachoak Phreek does bring up a practice I have heard of wherein a full-payer on the wait list of particular institutions does have a competitive advantage. Even if the institution is need-blind in the regular admission process. Kudos to Bowdoin for stating this plainly. Apparently HC currently does not do this.
(One could imagine a scenario wherein HC preserves this "Need Blind" proclamation it is so proud of and then in fine print indicates it applies to regular admission decision and not to early decision, waitlist, or transfer.)
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Post by alum on Aug 29, 2017 13:12:52 GMT -5
FWIW, HC does not have a great financial aid reputation among prospective students. This is in part due to their inclusion of loans as financial aid - notwithstanding their advertised "We meet 100 percent of accepted students’ demonstrated need." Many prospective students see this as a thoroughly misleading quote.@pakachoak Phreek does bring up a practice I have heard of wherein a full-payer on the wait list of particular institutions does have a competitive advantage. Even if the institution is need-blind in the regular admission process. Kudos to Bowdoin for stating this plainly. Apparently HC currently does not do this. (One could imagine a scenario wherein HC preserves this "Need Blind" proclamation it is so proud of and then in fine print indicates it applies to regular admission decision and not to early decision, waitlist, or transfer.) You spend a lot of time telling us that prospective students think poorly about Holy Cross for one reason or another and here we have another example. I am calling BS on this one. Here is a list of all colleges claiming to meet 100% of stated need. There are about 70 on the list (There are other lists with some small differences and this is a year old, but it is instructive.) blog.collegegreenlight.com/blog/colleges-that-meet-100-of-student-financial-need/You will see that, by my quick count, only16 do not require any students to take out loans in order to meet this goal. The schools that do not include loans in the aid package include some Ivy's and NESCAC's and a few others. So, this idea that HC is failing to compete on this basis would seem to be unfounded. Therefore, if these prospective kids think HC is misleading them,they think the same about BC, Brown, Wellseley, Wesleyan and Williams among many other great schools. Of course, the real issue is how one defines full need. These colleges probably all require the CSS Profile in addition to the FAFSA. The Profile calculates the family contribution a little differently. For example, and I have heard this about HC, it takes into account the equity in vacation homes as being an asset available to meet the family contribution. Those of us who have had five kids graduate from high school in the last nine years have heard a lot of kids and lot of parents talk about the cost of college. I find in talking to people that complaints about aid have a lot to do with inapt comparisons of merit money and true financial aid. I have heard people say that one school gave Johnny or Janie more aid than another and am able to recognize from some knowledge of the academic and financial circumstances that it is merit money that is driving the discussion. Once the current building boom is funded, the College ought to really try to focus major and leadership giving on reducing the use of loans in packages and guaranteeing every student $4000 to use in one summer to support an unpaid internship or summer research project. The latter is being offered by a number of schools and is an important tool to convince parents and students of the value of a liberal arts education. By my calculation, about $350,000,000 would accomplish both goals.
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Post by hcpride on Aug 29, 2017 14:05:22 GMT -5
FWIW, HC does not have a great financial aid reputation among prospective students. This is in part due to their inclusion of loans as financial aid - notwithstanding their advertised "We meet 100 percent of accepted students’ demonstrated need." Many prospective students see this as a thoroughly misleading quote.@pakachoak Phreek does bring up a practice I have heard of wherein a full-payer on the wait list of particular institutions does have a competitive advantage. Even if the institution is need-blind in the regular admission process. Kudos to Bowdoin for stating this plainly. Apparently HC currently does not do this. (One could imagine a scenario wherein HC preserves this "Need Blind" proclamation it is so proud of and then in fine print indicates it applies to regular admission decision and not to early decision, waitlist, or transfer.) You spend a lot of time telling us that prospective students think poorly about Holy Cross for one reason or another and here we have another example. I am calling BS on this one. Here is a list of all colleges claiming to meet 100% of stated need. There are about 70 on the list (There are other lists with some small differences and this is a year old, but it is instructive.) blog.collegegreenlight.com/blog/colleges-that-meet-100-of-student-financial-need/You will see that, by my quick count, only16 do not require any students to take out loans in order to meet this goal. The schools that do not include loans in the aid package include some Ivy's and NESCAC's and a few others. So, this idea that HC is failing to compete on this basis would seem to be unfounded. Therefore, if these prospective kids think HC is misleading them,they think the same about BC, Brown, Wellseley, Wesleyan and Williams among many other great schools. Of course, the real issue is how one defines full need. These colleges probably all require the CSS Profile in addition to the FAFSA. The Profile calculates the family contribution a little differently. For example, and I have heard this about HC, it takes into account the equity in vacation homes as being an asset available to meet the family contribution. Those of us who have had five kids graduate from high school in the last nine years have heard a lot of kids and lot of parents talk about the cost of college. I find in talking to people that complaints about aid have a lot to do with inapt comparisons of merit money and true financial aid. I have heard people say that one school gave Johnny or Janie more aid than another and am able to recognize from some knowledge of the academic and financial circumstances that it is merit money that is driving the discussion. Once the current building boom is funded, the College ought to really try to focus major and leadership giving on reducing the use of loans in packages and guaranteeing every student $4000 to use in one summer to support an unpaid internship or summer research project. The latter is being offered by a number of schools and is an important tool to convince parents and students of the value of a liberal arts education. By my calculation, about $350,000,000 would accomplish both goals. FWIW, HC does not have a great financial aid reputation among prospective students. This is in part due to their inclusion of loans as financial aid - notwithstanding their advertised "We meet 100 percent of accepted students’ demonstrated need." Many prospective students see this as a thoroughly misleading quote.
Underlined the part you seem to have missed since you essentially agreed with me concerning their financial aid reputation. I agree the CSS profile utilized by some other schools may result in more favorable need decisions. And contribute to a reputation. Hence the phrase " in part". I further agree that the lack of merit aid at HC tends to obfuscate the issue for some folks and that may also (incorrectly, as you note) contribute to its financial aid reputation. Hence the phrase, in part. You have also misunderstood my phrase "not have a great financial aid reputation" to mean "students think poorly about Holy Cross". Not at all. (I make/made no representation HC is the only '100% demonstrated need' school to include loans and to only note that in the fine print or off of the main financial aid web page. It is also no secret that prospective parents and students alike find this misleading. And I note your agreement that it would be better NOT to include loans as part of the financial aid packages.)
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Aug 29, 2017 14:48:44 GMT -5
How the Ivies determine need differs. For example, Harvard does not consider home equity in the parent's house, Brown does. _____________________________
How might HC eliminate loans? Assume that 1200 students at HC each have $7000 of loans as part of their annual financial aid package,.an increase in the endowment by about $185 million would do the trick. Matter of tradeoffs: adding $75 million to the endowment would defray the increased costs of men's ice hockey HE membership. ____________________________ Financial aid, three similarly-sized institutions
Holy Cross $50.7M Colgate $54.4M Wesleyan $55.0M
Holy Cross is more generous than Lafayette, which awards #40 million for about 2500 undergraduates.
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Post by matunuck on Dec 1, 2017 15:42:40 GMT -5
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Post by crusader12 on Dec 1, 2017 17:56:07 GMT -5
A 40% acceptance rate yet we lose student athletes to other PL schools? BAD! So glad I pulled the plug, Holy Cross is going in the wrong direction.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 1, 2017 19:32:08 GMT -5
What plug did you pull?
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Post by Chu Chu on Dec 1, 2017 19:33:57 GMT -5
I really like the "Holy Cross at a Glance" format. Very informative.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Dec 1, 2017 21:21:12 GMT -5
A 40% acceptance rate yet we lose student athletes to other PL schools? BAD! So glad I pulled the plug, Holy Cross is going in the wrong direction. Congrats! Hair plug? Plug from your shower drain?
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