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Post by rgs318 on Jul 31, 2017 7:54:22 GMT -5
Sota, That is only true if the parents care more about money than the welfare and happiness of their own child.
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Post by sader1970 on Jul 31, 2017 7:57:11 GMT -5
Of course, you are preaching to the choir here with only 1 or 2 exceptions.
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Post by sarasota on Jul 31, 2017 9:35:26 GMT -5
Sota, That is only true if the parents care more about money than the welfare and happiness of their own child. naive over simplification
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Post by Tom on Jul 31, 2017 10:25:21 GMT -5
I am not close to the football parents. I've spoken extensively with the basketball parents. I have never heard a discouraging word by any of them towards the coaches who recruited their sons. Perhaps it's the $200000+ scholarship. From a practical standpoint, even though the entire school community will be molding the student, no single adult is going to spend more time with the kid or have more impact than each member of the coaching staff. Assistants come and go and the head coach is the face of the program and the culture setter for that program so he's the guy. If you're going to entrust your teenage child to some guy for four years, you damn well better like the guy or at least trust/respect him. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- newsaderdad - welcome to the board. I hope your son has a great experience in all aspects of Holy Cross
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Post by sader81 on Jul 31, 2017 11:05:58 GMT -5
Welcome newsaderdad! Hope your son enjoys his time on the hill and gets some quality playing time. I've met Coach Gilmore many times; I like and admire the hard work he puts in and the fact that he is a great ambassador for the college. Unfortunately, his success is measured by wins and losses, and on that front, he has not made the grade over the past few years. I'm sure everyone here has their opinion as to why that's happened, as do I, but the fact remains that our AD has given him at least another year to right the ship. He's closer to the situation than any of us, so I can live with that, and hope for a successful season.
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Post by Chu Chu on Jul 31, 2017 11:44:34 GMT -5
Tuition and Fees $48,940 Room and Board $13,225 Total $62,165 X 4 yrs = $248,660 Just an observation, not directed at any parent in particular. Parents of scholarship players are the recipients of a gift worth a quarter of a million dollars. One could hardly consider such parents objective evaluators of the coach who approved that gift. This is not really a gift, IMO, but rather, a scholarship. It recognizes achievement, and the college has made the decision that it is worthwhile value proposition for the school.
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Post by dharry13 on Jul 31, 2017 11:48:57 GMT -5
Newsaderdad. Congrats to your son for earning a scholarship. Happy to have you on board. I think two things are readily apparent. 1 - we like HCTG as a person which is vitally important in the entire scheme of things. 2 - we want to see the program get back to the heights we once achieved soon as it's been quite a while. As you can imagine we have high standards, which I would guess is a big part of the reason your son chose HC. To help get back where the program belongs. We are passionate - that we can assure you of.
Welcome - we look forward to watching your son play.
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Post by sarasota on Jul 31, 2017 13:17:49 GMT -5
Tuition and Fees $48,940 Room and Board $13,225 Total $62,165 X 4 yrs = $248,660 Just an observation, not directed at any parent in particular. Parents of scholarship players are the recipients of a gift worth a quarter of a million dollars. One could hardly consider such parents objective evaluators of the coach who approved that gift. This is not really a gift, IMO, but rather, a scholarship. It recognizes achievement, and the college has made the decision that it is worthwhile value proposition for the school. All true.....but beside the point.
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Post by jkh67 on Jul 31, 2017 13:44:00 GMT -5
I don't believe anyone on this board wants HC to lower its standards in pursuit of better football records. However, I personally believe...and I believe that most participants on this board believe...that HC could be doing much better on the gridiron than we have been doing over the course of most of the last decade without lowering standards. There are no doubt a number of reasons for our relative lack of success, not all them attributable solely to Gilmore by a long shot. But, if you're going to play the game and spend roughly $4 million a year doing it, winning can't help but be a key metric...even at an institution like HC playing in a conference like the PL. If it's not, what's the point of spending that kind of money on the sport? Gilmore has had more than enough chances to prove he can be a winner at HC. He hasn't done it. I have no reason to believe that he is not a class individual, but it will certainly be time for a change if things don't dramatically improve. Starting this year.
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Post by rgs318 on Jul 31, 2017 13:54:23 GMT -5
Do you remember the PL title his team won? I would think that should count for something.
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Post by sader1970 on Jul 31, 2017 14:01:37 GMT -5
And finished 2nd twice as I recall.
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Post by hchoops on Jul 31, 2017 14:16:25 GMT -5
And finished 2nd twice as I recall. To give this perspective the championship was in 2009 the last second place finish was in 2011 the highest finish in the last six years was fourth
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Post by rgs318 on Jul 31, 2017 14:24:45 GMT -5
To give this additional perspective, the posts were in response to the statement. "Gilmore has had more than enough chances to prove he can be a winner at HC. He hasn't done it."
If the question is "what has he done lately?" then the highly rated group of incoming recruits should be counted in the answer.
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Post by hchoops on Jul 31, 2017 14:45:18 GMT -5
To give this additional perspective, the posts were in response to the statement. "Gilmore has had more than enough chances to prove he can be a winner at HC. He hasn't done it." If the question is "what has he done lately?" then the highly rated group of incoming recruits should be counted in the answer. When these recruits win some games, hopefully, Gilmore will be credited
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Post by jkh67 on Jul 31, 2017 15:11:49 GMT -5
Here's the "post Randolph" record (2010-2016) (excluding Monmouth, Bryant, etc.): Colonial Athletic: UMass 0-2 Ivy: Harvard 2-4 Patriot: Colgate 2-5 UNH 0-3 Dartmouth 2-4 Lehigh 1-6 Albany 1-2 Brown 1-4 Lafayette 5-2 Bucknell 5-2 Fordham 2-5 Georgetown 4-3 So, we've gone 1-7 against the CAA; 5-12 against the Ivies; and 19-23 against the PL. (Putting aside going 10-4 against those pigskin powerhouses, Bucknell and Lafayette, the PL record is 9-19).
Some might be tempted to say res ipsa loquitur!
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Post by bringbackcaro on Jul 31, 2017 15:29:31 GMT -5
Here's the "post Randolph" record (2010-2016) (excluding Monmouth, Bryant, etc.): Colonial Athletic: UMass 0-2 Ivy: Harvard 2-4 Patriot: Colgate 2-5 UNH 0-3 Dartmouth 2-4 Lehigh 1-6 Albany 1-2 Brown 1-4 Lafayette 5-2 Bucknell 5-2 Fordham 2-5 Georgetown 4-3 So, we've gone 1-7 against the CAA; 5-12 against the Ivies; and 19-23 against the PL. (Putting aside going 10-4 against those pigskin powerhouses, Bucknell and Lafayette, the PL record is 9-19). Some might be tempted to say res ipsa loquitur! If you wanted to actually take a step back and thing through what has happened in the 1-AA landscape in the last 10 years, the results would make more sense. 3 years prior to TG's arrival: 2001: 4-6 2002: 4-8 2003: 1-11 (The cupboard was pretty bare.)TG's first two seasons: 2004: 3-8 2005: 6-5 TG's recruits make up Frosh-Juniors: 2006: 7-4 TG's recruits make up the entire roster: 2007: 7-4 2008: 7-4 2009: 9-3 Meanwhile, in 2006 the NEC announced that they were adding scholarships, meaning that their first year with schollies on the roster was 2008, and they reached their full allotment in 2010(initially 30, then increasing to 40). Say what you want about the schools in the NEC, but them adding schollies had a direct impact on the pool of kids that HC could recruit without scholarships. This is also the time that the Ivy League re-structured their financial aid program and made it a lot easier to recruit athletes with generous aid packages. Combine these two "outside factors" with HC being toward the bottom of the PL in spending and support (significantly behind Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette) and Fordham adding scholarships in 2009, and it's not all that difficult to understand why our results tailed off. 2010: 6-5 2011: 6-5 2012: 2-9 2013: 3-9 2014: 4-8 2015: 6-5 2016: 4-7 I don't know how you can argue that there is not a direct correlation between HC's drop-off and the change the change in the 1-AA landscape in the northeast on the back end of the 2000s. Now that we have fully ramped our scholarships and increased support for the football program, we are starting to see some big recruiting wins and I fully expect to see a jump similar to where TG brought the program beginning in his 3rd and 4th years.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jul 31, 2017 15:46:59 GMT -5
Fantastic analysis, caro--thanks for sharing that with us.
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Post by sader1970 on Jul 31, 2017 15:47:00 GMT -5
Two thumbs up for your comprehensive analysis in a very concise manner, BBC.
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Post by sader1970 on Jul 31, 2017 15:56:16 GMT -5
And just maybe that the points that Caro has made are the ones that have convinced Nate to keep TG when others feel he should have been let go. Nate is looking at the bigger/longer-range picture.
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Post by hcpride on Jul 31, 2017 16:03:24 GMT -5
Now that we have fully ramped our scholarships and increased support for the football program, we are starting to see some big recruiting wins and I fully expect to see a jump similar to where TG brought the program beginning in his 3rd and 4th years. I think we actually landed a couple 2-3 star recruits for 2017 with lower/mid level FBS offers (other than the service academies). I would call those big recruiting wins as those guys (and Connor D.) may be literal game changers at the Patriot League level. (IMHO beating out PL, Ivies and CAA are definite recruiting wins... big wins I think of beating out FBS)
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Post by hchoops on Jul 31, 2017 16:20:13 GMT -5
Playing devil's advocate, all these outside factors mentioned do not explain the three losses to a severely underfunded Gtown and the constant poundings we took last season from Dartmouth, Lehigh, Colgate, Albany(with PP), the close loss to lowly Bucknell, and especially the total 40 point embarrassment to Fordham in Yankee Stadium before many alums., a game over in the first quarter. Gilmore's defenses have been consistently bad.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Jul 31, 2017 17:56:55 GMT -5
And just maybe that the points that Caro has made are the ones that have convinced Nate to keep TG when others feel he should have been let go. Nate is looking at the bigger/longer-range picture. I agree. I believe it was a very good decision to not have a quick trigger on TG, assuming that all would magically be fixed as soon as we got to Year 4 of the new schollie era. Recruiting results last spring are the first indication that it was a good decision, and here's to hoping there are many more supporting facts piling up starting in a few Saturdays.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Jul 31, 2017 18:03:35 GMT -5
Playing devil's advocate, all these outside factors mentioned do not explain the three losses to a severely underfunded Gtown and the constant poundings we took last season from Dartmouth, Lehigh, Colgate, Albany(with PP), the close loss to lowly Bucknell, and especially the total 40 point embarrassment to Fordham in Yankee Stadium before many alums., a game over in the first quarter. Gilmore's defenses have been consistently bad. Some fair criticism. However, I still choose to believe that the guy who took a program that was 27-62 in 8 seasons under the former head coach (only 1 winning season), and had us 39-28 in his first 6 seasons did not somehow forget how to coach a football team.
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Post by td128 on Jul 31, 2017 18:08:30 GMT -5
I personally am excited to see and feel the impact the new assistants have on this year's team. Initial reviews from spring ball were very positive. Very high energy guys and proven leaders.
Let's Win!!
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Post by hchoops on Jul 31, 2017 19:02:08 GMT -5
Playing devil's advocate, all these outside factors mentioned do not explain the three losses to a severely underfunded Gtown and the constant poundings we took last season from Dartmouth, Lehigh, Colgate, Albany(with PP), the close loss to lowly Bucknell, and especially the total 40 point embarrassment to Fordham in Yankee Stadium before many alums., a game over in the first quarter. Gilmore's defenses have been consistently bad. Some fair criticism. However, I still choose to believe that the guy who took a program that was 27-62 in 8 seasons under the former head coach (only 1 winning season), and had us 39-28 in his first 6 seasons did not somehow forget how to coach a football team. There have been other examples of coaches who started strong and faded, but I hope you are correct.
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