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Post by rgs318 on Oct 23, 2017 17:09:55 GMT -5
Pak, Might your family be willing to continue their tradition and finance the Holy Cross "Crusade" to return to sports respectability?
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Post by inhocsigno on Oct 23, 2017 17:31:26 GMT -5
Based on his family's history, they are more likely to make a claim for the AD crown and go scorched earth in the conquest.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 23, 2017 17:59:23 GMT -5
Pak, Might your family be willing to continue their tradition and finance the Holy Cross "Crusade" to return to sports respectability? It would, if it could!! The Irish branch of the tree, of which I am descended, foolishly decided to ally themselves with one Thomas FitzGerald, the earl of Kildare, and revolt against Henry VIII. ^^^^This is a painting of FitzGerald. I just noticed that my family coat of arms is in the upper left corner. The revolt failed, and both FitzGerald, and Baron de Neville were sent to the Tower. Where terrible things happened. All the baronial property in County Wexford was subject to attanider, and that ended the noble line in Ireland. The FitzGerald properties were not subject to attainder, as FitzGerald was related to Anne Boleyn. (Thomas Cromwell subsequently laid waste to Wexford and further decimated the family.) The English branch had become progressively more powerful, a de Neville was wife of Richard III, and the second de Neville to be Queen of England. However, choosing poorly for the first time in several centuries, the de Neville's sided with the House of York in the War of the Roses, and the English branch also faded into insignificance. ________________ I should tell a bit more about Hugh de Neville, who went on the Third Crusade with Richard. Richard was captured by Catholic nobles and held for ransom. Hugh escaped and returned to England, where he allied himself with Prince John, later King John. He and King John were close, gambling together. John got upset at something Hugh had done -- he was Chief Forester, which means he administered one third of all the land in England and Wales for the King. He became very rich. The fine was 10,000 marks, approximately 6500 pounds of silver. John ultimately relented and there was little or no fine. Hugh was very learned, which he needed to be to keep the books. Two weeks of his household account have survived. In one entry, he records that he paid John a fee of 200 chickens to be allowed to sleep with his (Hugh's) wife. I assume the two of them shared more than a love of gambling. Hugh is named as one of the 12 'illustrious men' in the preface to the Magna Carta. From a family standpoint, that's a big plus! Contemporary chroniclers describe him as the King's "evil counselor". That's a minus.. And that's probably the truer and fairer description. Very likely, because of his position, he was despised throughout the realm. .
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Post by jkh67 on Oct 23, 2017 20:40:02 GMT -5
This is a baked cake, dudes. I have not heard anything to suggest that any outsiders have expressed umbrage at the "Crusader" name. What's happening here is that the TPTB, having consulted their guilt stricken and lint laden navels, have decided that "Crusader" needs to go. And go it will. If you're offended by this nonsense, the only option is to vote with your feet. Which is what I intend to do. A few questions, though, before I move on. If "Crusader" is offensive, how do you justify "Holy Cross"? Or the Jesuits? Or the retention of the name "Mulledy" on the dorm where I spent my senior year? The selective political correctness is enough to make you sick. Not to mention the abysmal management of the football and basketball programs that used to be part and parcel of the College's DNA. So, farewell alma mater. I'm done.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 23, 2017 21:03:51 GMT -5
if the Crusader is retained will you double your level of contributions to HC?
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Post by ncaam on Oct 24, 2017 6:55:27 GMT -5
Could someone reprise that Dershowitz Brooks discussion?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 24, 2017 7:31:25 GMT -5
One shouldn't conflate 'crusader' with 'Holy Cross' or the 'Jesuits' or 'the R.C. church'. Holy Cross was named for the first Catholic church in Boston. The land for that church was acquired by Charles Bulfinch, who designed the church. Bulfinch gifted the land to his friend, Bishop de Cheverus. de Cheverus was French, but had fled France with the French Revolution. Subscribing to the building of the church were John Adams, Harrison Gray Otis, America's first millionaire Elias Hasket Derby, and other notable Protestants. Bulfinch's design for Holy Cross is thought by some to have been borrowed from the Church of the Holy Spirit in Rome, with which he was familiar. ^^^^The heraldic shield for the church of the Holy Spirit. The creator of HC's 'crusader' nickname was one of those 'black Protestants' my mother would speak of, and a person who otherwise had nothing to do with Holy Cross. (He was born and raised in Worcester, as was his father. They both played sports at Amherst.) And I'll bet dollars to donuts that this black Protestant knew that the In Hoc Signo Vinces on the college seal was also, from the 18th Century, the motto of the Freemasons in America, and thus associated with the Knights Templar. I'm not ascribing malevolence to his nicknaming, only that it was born of a familiarity with the two institutions.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 24, 2017 8:00:12 GMT -5
Could someone reprise that Dershowitz Brooks discussion? Brooks was ten years retired when this ^^^ happened. John Paul II, June 29, 2004 One can try getting past the other crusades, but then there is the Fourth. The Fourth is sort of like explaining, 'he was a good and decent man six days a week, and only murdered on Wednesdays.'
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Post by Tom on Oct 24, 2017 8:11:15 GMT -5
This is a baked cake, dudes. I have not heard anything to suggest that any outsiders have expressed umbrage at the "Crusader" name. What's happening here is that the TPTB, having consulted their guilt stricken and lint laden navels, have decided that "Crusader" needs to go. And go it will. If you're offended by this nonsense, the only option is to vote with your feet. Which is what I intend to do. A few questions, though, before I move on. If "Crusader" is offensive, how do you justify "Holy Cross"? Or the Jesuits? Or the retention of the name "Mulledy" on the dorm where I spent my senior year? The selective political correctness is enough to make you sick. Not to mention the abysmal management of the football and basketball programs that used to be part and parcel of the College's DNA. So, farewell alma mater. I'm done. Is it possible that things are simply as they say: The concerns came up during the Mulledy discussions and being an educational institution that promotes critical thinking, they're going to give this a truly fair hearing? Personally, I find the process slightly annoying as it is much ado about nothing. It seems like a waste of time and energy to have this much discussion over a topic that in, my opinion, is just silly. However, at some point, the minority opinion should be heard and considered. Looking at both sides of an issue should lead to a better decision. I am hopeful that this isn't a bag job, but the school is doing just what they say. If the fix isn't in, I am confident the Crusader will remain. Not because in the 21st century a Crusader is exactly what Holy Cross tries to project - young men and women fighting for good. The BoT has a lot of successful real world people who are probably pragmatic enough to see that the negatives of changing tremendously outweigh the positives
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Post by ncaam on Oct 24, 2017 8:24:39 GMT -5
Could someone reprise that Dershowitz Brooks discussion? Brooks was ten years retired when this ^^^ happened. John Paul II, June 29, 2004 One can try getting past the other crusades, but then there is the Fourth. The Fourth is sort of like explaining, 'he was a good and decent man six days a week, and only murdered on Wednesdays.' My ancestry goes back to 1900 Poland and before that Adam and Eve so I am stained with original sin. The Crusaders of old “took the Cross” and thereby stained that symbol. No need to look at the KKK. Since the Cross is thus stained it should be eradicated as well. The Cross and the Jesuits should be discussed at the two upcoming meetings. Wither the Crusader, so to the Cross and the Jesuits. Btw When did you become a mind reader?
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Post by hc811215 on Oct 24, 2017 8:27:48 GMT -5
I know there are some strong feelings about this, but I'll weigh in anyway and hope that my post does not offend. I wonder if in an alternative universe where Holy Cross was just starting an intercollegiate sports program in 2017 and was thinking of names for Holy Cross sports teams today, would "Crusader" even make it into the top 20 names to be considered? I could be wrong, but think not. While it can charitably be said that the Crusades have a somewhat complicated history, the excess, the barbarity, and the slaughter of many thousands of non-combatants during the Crusades have left mostly negative connotations, especially among high school aged students looking at colleges in 2017 and beyond. Perhaps worse for a sports team, their won loss record for the crusades was worse than CMB and CTG combined. If you were to ask the average Catholic (if there were such a thing), what are the top 10 things you associate with Catholicism or which make you proud to be a catholic, I don't think the crusades make either of these lists. The Jesuits who founded Holy Cross were not formed until long after the major crusades were finished. Indeed, St. Ignatius gave up his sword when he founded the Jesuits. While there might have been an additional Worcester connection to knights and the crusades because of its then famous Worcester Armory museum, even that institution has shut down for lack of interest. I don't think the question is whether the crusader name is offensive to others. Rather, is it the name with which the Holy Cross student body, faculty, and administration wish to use to self-identify as a community and to rally behind in sports? I would not be surprised if the college makes a change and would not be terribly upset if they do. While alums should have some say in the matter, I think the decision needs to be more about the present and future, than it needs to be about the past. There is no reference to crusaders in either the alma mater or chu chu rah rah songs. I would not be surprised if our teams became the Purple Knights or just The Purple. We could even keep Iggy.
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Post by ncaam on Oct 24, 2017 8:44:49 GMT -5
I will stay engaged until and if we can vote. I will vote for iggy as the dumbest mascot available.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 24, 2017 9:28:56 GMT -5
If you were to ask the average Catholic (if there were such a thing), what are the top 10 things you associate with Catholicism or which make you proud to be a catholic, I don't think the crusades make either of these lists. The Knights of Columbus might differ on that opinion. [BTW, they are keeping Columbus in their title, despite recent ethnocentric reinterpretation of history.] Is there some reason why any mascot would have to be in a "top 10" list? The number seems somewhat arbitrary and appears to ignore almost a century of tradition on Mt Saint James. Is we had never been the Crusaders, that is a horse of a different color, as some say. Such a task also carries on the double-digit discrimination against single numbers. (Sorry, once people start picking out reasons to dislike things it is apparently hard to stop.)
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Post by hc811215 on Oct 24, 2017 10:17:46 GMT -5
If you were to ask the average Catholic (if there were such a thing), what are the top 10 things you associate with Catholicism or which make you proud to be a catholic, I don't think the crusades make either of these lists. Is there some reason why any mascot would have to be in a "top 10" list? The number seems somewhat arbitrary and appears to ignore almost a century of tradition on Mt Saint James. Is we had never been the Crusaders, that is a horse of a different color, as some say. Hold on there. Who said anything about changing colors? If we gave up our purple color that would be a bridge too far, even for me.
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Post by joe on Oct 24, 2017 10:21:00 GMT -5
Lots of names would not be used now, but the Crusader was the one chosen and has been used, and become something that means a lot to many people, on many levels. You can’t just erase that.
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Post by nhteamer on Oct 24, 2017 10:38:07 GMT -5
I have infrequently so wanted to be wrong
But, IT'S A BAG JOB
Since 1976 HC has been my biggest charitable donation. If this happens, I'm out I will take no joy in that; but out I shall be.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 24, 2017 12:31:55 GMT -5
Is there some reason why any mascot would have to be in a "top 10" list? The number seems somewhat arbitrary and appears to ignore almost a century of tradition on Mt Saint James. Is we had never been the Crusaders, that is a horse of a different color, as some say. Hold on there. Who said anything about changing colors? If we gave up our purple color that would be a bridge too far, even for me. But as pictures show, our Crusader's horse has had a number of colors over the years!
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Post by Tom on Oct 24, 2017 12:50:01 GMT -5
Hold on there. Who said anything about changing colors? If we gave up our purple color that would be a bridge too far, even for me. But as pictures show, our Crusader's horse has had a number of colors over the years! I know where you can get one of those
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 24, 2017 14:49:21 GMT -5
So now we discuss/debate whether the people who should decide the mascot should be the present and future folks at Holy Cross?
Let me remind everyone that the alums, especially the old gray haired ones, are the ones that have supported the football and basketball teams for decades. How often have we read on Crossports, with notes of disdain, about the average age at Fitton and the Hart? These are the people who spent 4 years on the hill when current students have been there 4 years or less. And while the students and their parents are paying high tuitions, except of course, those lucky ones on athletic scholarships, the old alums are the ones that have been donating to keep the College going for years and years and years. Fr. B has acknowledged as much. The old alums give to Holy Cross in greater percentages and greater total dollars than the younger ones.
I can assure you that if the Crusader is tossed or worse, tossed without alumni input given very serious consideration, the financial impact will be disastrous.
Old alums have already been students and young alums. Students have never been alums and young alums have never been old alums.
The College owes loyalty to those who have been loyal to them. Not saying this should be a decision made solely by the older alums but they have skin in the game.
Look, despite what people are trying to make this out to be, the name Crusader and the mascot are not something immoral. As many more eloquently than I have stated, the mascot is not something that need to mean something to others, instead it is what it means to the group who has selected it.
I would be be willing to bet that the College will ultimately change the mascot name, without any change in look, to "Purple Knights" akin to West Point's "Black Knights."
That would mean that the rest of us don't have to wait until 50 years after graduation to achieve that title.
Then the rest of us could have our insider's secret that a Purple Knight is REALLY a Crusader. They better keep the cross on the shield!!
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 24, 2017 15:51:32 GMT -5
One shouldn't conflate 'crusader' with 'Holy Cross' or the 'Jesuits' or 'the R.C. church'. Holy Cross was named for the first Catholic church in Boston. The land for that church was acquired by Charles Bulfinch, who designed the church. Bulfinch gifted the land to his friend, Bishop de Cheverus. de Cheverus was French, but had fled France with the French Revolution. Subscribing to the building of the church were John Adams, Harrison Gray Otis, America's first millionaire Elias Hasket Derby, and other notable Protestants. Bulfinch's design for Holy Cross is thought by some to have been borrowed from the Church of the Holy Spirit in Rome, with which he was familiar. ^^^^The heraldic shield for the church of the Holy Spirit. The creator of HC's 'crusader' nickname was one of those 'black Protestants' my mother would speak of, and a person who otherwise had nothing to do with Holy Cross. (He was born and raised in Worcester, as was his father. They both played sports at Amherst.) And I'll bet dollars to donuts that this black Protestant knew that the In Hoc Signo Vinces on the college seal was also, from the 18th Century, the motto of the Freemasons in America, and thus associated with the Knights Templar. I'm not ascribing malevolence to his nicknaming, only that it was born of a familiarity with the two institutions. Critics may not care where the name came from. With today's atmosphere, if they don't like it, it will make no difference. It will be judged 'bad." Its removal may be demanded. After all, the KKK does do that "Cross" thing, don't they. We could always fall back on the Crusaders of Bergen Catholic High School's motto...DEUS VULT!
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Post by Chu Chu on Oct 24, 2017 16:24:15 GMT -5
Over the years, Holy Cross has stood for excellence along with free and open dialog. The Catholic identity informs the life on campus, but does not dominate it. Holy Cross graduates have spanned the religious and political spectrum, ranging from Michael Harrington (Socialist Candidate for President and Author of The Other America), Phillip Berrigan (anti-war activist and pacifist) to Clarence Thomas (very conservative Supreme Court justice). Holy Cross grads include the first physician astronaut, and the first physician to successfully perform transplant surgery (for which he got the Nobel prize), all the way to the first African American to head a major university and the first African American Roman Caholic Bishop. I worry about the name ONLY if it starts to diminish this vibrant diversity of thought and action that has always been a part of Holy Cross. So far, there is no problem that I can see, but if that is starting to happen, then it should change.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 24, 2017 16:58:21 GMT -5
Very well put, Chu!!!
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 24, 2017 17:45:52 GMT -5
How's this...change the college nickname to Purple Knights and when alums reach their 50th reunion, call them "Crusaders"? Or, we could just leave things as they are and have been (for about a century now).
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Post by inhocsigno on Oct 24, 2017 18:05:49 GMT -5
How's this...change the college nickname to Purple Knights and when alums reach their 50th reunion, call them "Crusaders"? Or, we could just leave things as they are and have been (for about a century now). While I can appreciate that some may be offended by the historical context of the Crusader, I don't know if changing to Purple Knights will be enough for some. The color purple is associated with nobility, wealth, royalty, etc. Therefore, anti-monarchists, socialists and communists would be offended. www.colorpsychology.org/purple/Knights, while sometimes carry the connotation of chivalry, etc., Knights also represent a hierarchical system that oppressed serfs and the lower classes. Such caste system is antithetical to our democratic virtues. Accordingly, good Sir, I don't think the college can change to such a triggering mascot.
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Post by spenser on Oct 24, 2017 18:38:32 GMT -5
People should start taking this seriously. The genealogy stuff above is foolish. I don’t care if it’s correct, it’s making a joke out of the issue. Reasoned, non-emotional argument may win the day. Or not. BECUSE RIGHT NOW THE CRUSADER IS GONE. Doesn’t have to be. But right now GONE!
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