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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 29, 2017 6:39:51 GMT -5
The crusader nickname was coined by Rufus Stanley Woodward, a native of Worcester, a graduate of Amherst, where he played on the offensive line. He was almost certainly a Protestant, and, FWIW, is reported to have been a liberal. Perhaps when he came up with the name, he was thinking of the Knights Templar: they wore the red cross, the so-called Templar Cross, on their tunics. See an avatar on this board. Woodward may have been familiar with the Knights Templar because of the organization's history, which continues to this day. Two centuries after being chartered by a Pope, the order was suppressed by another Pope (early 14th Century). The order was dissolved, with their very, very substantial properties confiscated and turned over to other orders. Subsequently in the 15th Century, surviving remnants of the Templars became associated with the masons guild, which evolved into the Freemasons. The young men's group associated with the Masons is the Order of DeMolay. Does not seem to be as popular as when I was growing up. The Order of DeMolay existed before Woodward suggested the crusader nickname. www.mademolay.org/en/page.php?id=13#.Wc4pZdQrKo8Between 1730 and 1983, Catholics who joined the Masons were automatically excommunicated. Since 1983, Catholics who join the Masons are in a state of "grave sin" and may not receive communion. Its quite possible that the Crusaders of Holy Cross were named by a practicing Mason, or at the least, by someone familiar with the tenets of Freemasonry, Regardless, the Knights Templar version of the Holy Cross Crusader currently represents an unintended affiliation with a fraternal, quasi-religious order that Catholics are forbidden to join. I'm interested in reading any rebuttals before I submit the above as a comment.
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Post by td128 on Sept 29, 2017 6:40:11 GMT -5
What do people think of the idea of a widely disseminated public poll and public forum in which people can select from perhaps 5 options and can share their opinions?
Would not that be the ultimate delivery in terms of embracing the Jesuit principles of informed and engaged interaction?
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Post by cruskater31 on Sept 29, 2017 6:45:12 GMT -5
The question has been called by some members of the HC community. Why is everyone so scared to have a discussion and debate on the topic? The paranoia and fear that some boogie man is in the background orchestrating this is laughable. As the product of Jesuit education I was taught that this is what you do with important topics - face them head on. Am I the only one who remembers this from my days on Mount Saint James? I think the paranoia might be overly sensitive millennials raised in a politically correct environment launching a "crusade" (ironic, eh?). Kids who are not legacy, have no previous connection to HC, and chose the College for its small environment. While there are a number of students from the school I teach currently on the Hill, more and more seem to be choosing Southern schools and more conservative options such as Ave Maria and Franciscan U. No stats here just an observation
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Post by hcgrad94 on Sept 29, 2017 6:55:38 GMT -5
What do people think of the idea of a widely disseminated public poll and public forum in which people can select from perhaps 5 options and can share their opinions? Would not that be the ultimate delivery in terms of embracing the Jesuit principles of informed and engaged interaction? Great. Love it. More discussion and discourse rather than less.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 29, 2017 6:57:14 GMT -5
Other schools have done polls about changing the mascot. And I recall that one or two schools that changed from Crusader also did a poll of faculty, students, and alumni.
It might be something that the BoT could undertake once they have reviewed the comments, and develop a spectrum of choices from which to choose.. That said, the Mulledy change was never polled.
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Post by jkh67 on Sept 29, 2017 6:58:06 GMT -5
My statement that Buroughs had no connections with HC prior to becoming President was wrong. Shame on me. Thanks to sader1970 for setting me straight.
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 29, 2017 7:02:00 GMT -5
From Fr. Boroughs' letter on the subject: "I have charged the group with creating opportunities for students and families, faculty, staff and alumni to participate in the dialogue. The working group will then create a report and summary of findings to be reviewed by the Board of Trustees at the February board meeting. T he working group will not be making a recommendation or suggesting any particular course of action." [emphasis mine] The working group appears to be a vehicle for gathering facts and opinions. Further from the president: "I am looking forward to a thoughtful and engaged discussion and am confident that the Board will carefully reflect upon the information presented and thoughtfully discern the question before them when they meet in February." [It does sound like Fr. Boroughs would like the BOT to go on a retreat to "carefully reflect upon the information presented and thoughtfully discern the question before them." The word "discern" seems to be in every conversation or discussion I have had with any Jesuit in the last decade. ]
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Post by td128 on Sept 29, 2017 7:17:05 GMT -5
Those who control the medium, control the message. Hence, the beauty and the power of a truly open and public format. This is not to say that a public forum cannot itself be overrun by trolls and those more inclined to merely create noise than honest dialogue but hopefully a public forum would have a monitor without real bias (you know somebody like Dean Wormer . . . !!) .
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 29, 2017 7:42:51 GMT -5
I will not pray to my great,, great, great....... great grandfather St. Arnulf de Metz, feast day July 18, or to my great, great, great...... great grandmother, Ste. Begga de Landen, who has TWO feast days September 6 and December 17, nor to my first cousin from long ago, St. Adalard of Corbie, whose feast day is January 2 (St. Adalard died on January 1, but that day is already taken!) asking for enlightenment from heaven on this great question.
If I did pray, and my prayers were answered, would this not cause much consternation at the college on how to consider and weight such a communication?
(BTW, those aren't the only 'family' saints.)
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Sept 29, 2017 8:16:10 GMT -5
This is an example of the madness that got Trump elected If that is true please bring us more of it on every subject
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Post by Tom on Sept 29, 2017 8:26:00 GMT -5
Looks like it's finally happening. A formal inquiry into the implications of the Crusader moniker. Alumni check your emails.
Good grief.
I believe that many of the nickname changes in college sports in recent decades have resulted from publicly voiced objections to monikers like "Indians" (Dartmouth, Stanford), "Fighting Sioux" (N.D. State), and "Redmen" (St. John's). In some cases, the groups supposedly offended by certain names have let it be known that it's OK with them (e.g., Fla. State Seminoles). If concerns have been expressed about the word "Crusaders" by folks who are not members of the HC community, the College ought to let the HC community know the content of those concerns and by whom they have been expressed. If there is nothing to report on that front, this looks like a self-induced exercise in political correctness organized by a guy who himself had no connection with Holy Cross before being named its President. If that's what's happening here, I can only quote the Twittering man in the Oval Office. Sad!. I believe that the leaders of the Sioux Nation, like the Seminole Nation, publicly said they had no problem with our friends in North Dakota. Like any large group, the leaders don't necessarily speak for 100 percent of their constituents. Florida St is a big money program with clout in the NCAA. North Dakota less so, and the NCAA imposed sanctions because the Sioux Nation should have been offended. There have also been some publicly voiced objections to the UMass Minutemen because of the violent, gun carrying nature of the mascot
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Post by joe on Sept 29, 2017 8:51:44 GMT -5
From Fr. Boroughs' letter on the subject: "I have charged the group with creating opportunities for students and families, faculty, staff and alumni to participate in the dialogue. The working group will then create a report and summary of findings to be reviewed by the Board of Trustees at the February board meeting. T he working group will not be making a recommendation or suggesting any particular course of action." [emphasis mine] The working group appears to be a vehicle for gathering facts and opinions. Further from the president: "I am looking forward to a thoughtful and engaged discussion and am confident that the Board will carefully reflect upon the information presented and thoughtfully discern the question before them when they meet in February." [It does sound like Fr. Boroughs would like the BOT to go on a retreat to "carefully reflect upon the information presented and thoughtfully discern the question before them." The word "discern" seems to be in every conversation or discussion I have had with any Jesuit in the last decade. ] I get it but re-read my sentence above. If we think the tone and tenor of the committee will not have a bearing on the BoT's determination we'd be living in la-la-land. Agree with TD's suggestion, which I'm sure he'll bring to the powers that be, and I'd be happy to stand behind him.
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Post by timholycross on Sept 29, 2017 8:56:20 GMT -5
Money should have no impact on the decision. It is right or it’s wrong. The principle is what’s at stake here. Not that an 80-20 support for the Crusader wont save him, I believe there is no need for this exercise but to favor excommunication on the part of the current administration. What exactly is the principle at stake? Not bending over for every group that wants to change something because it offends them or it's perceived that it offends someone else. Damn sick of it.
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Post by nhteamer on Sept 29, 2017 10:14:16 GMT -5
the PTB have already decided. This is just for show; to later say there was a "process" that was meticulously followed.
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Post by timholycross on Sept 29, 2017 13:37:54 GMT -5
I have to agree with that, nh...A fait accompli as my father used to say.
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 29, 2017 13:56:48 GMT -5
I had not intended to post this, but with all of the discussion, here is what I sent to Fr B (and received a reply the next day from the committee chair.
Father Boroughs,
I can't claim this letter and committee are a surprise, so I have already given this some thought. I strongly support the role of the Crusader as both mascot and moniker. The good done with that as HC's nickname for many decades is well documented.
I am aware of the intense emotion generated by this topic, but once on this slippery slope, what must be changed next? How about the name of the school? After all, the KKK has used a burning Cross a as symbol...clearly offensive. Does anyone want to be known as connected to "College of the Holy to be named later"? And, the word "Holy" would be offensive to those with secular beliefs, so that may have to go as well. Change the name of the campus newspaper...OK, I can live with that. After all it has become an occasional web post and no longer seems to be a newspaper. However, I was, I am, and I graduated as, a "Crusader" and desire no other connection.
When we allow a minority of "others" (whether within or outside our community) to foist their definitions of our symbols upon us, all may well be lost as soon as the discussion is started. I won't drone on with more examples, but I would make 2 points. (1) this seems to be one more in a line of objectionable issues being raised for political reasons and as part of an effort to rewrite history, and (2) such a change may well cost HC some financial support and seems to already be underway (with a bookstore official telling me some months back of being told to not have items with the word "Crusader" on them in the bookstore).
I do hope that the committee finds some way around this tempest in a teapot. I do not envy the pressure you must be under. My support for Holy Cross will not change because I will always be grateful for all I received through and because of Holy Cross.
Sincerely, Robert Stevenson
Professor Robert G. Stevenson, EdD HC Graduating Class of 1967 Deus Vult
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Post by hcgrad94 on Sept 29, 2017 14:05:15 GMT -5
the PTB have already decided. This is just for show; to later say there was a "process" that was meticulously followed. Let's talk in February.
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Post by td128 on Sept 29, 2017 14:16:08 GMT -5
. . . a bookstore official telling me some months back of being told to not have items with the word "Crusader" on them in the bookstore.
Speechless . . .
Perhaps we should produce some Friends of Crusader Football sportswear. Would think we might have some strong demand.
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Post by td128 on Sept 29, 2017 14:23:58 GMT -5
I did quickly scan the bookstore site and saw a handful of items with our Crusader name. Not many but a couple. Just in case, I figured that a good market move would be to clean them out of these hats. An easy double and perhaps a triple if they deep six the name.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 29, 2017 15:06:48 GMT -5
The following is a list of schools that still have the crusader nickname. Other schools, including several Catholic schools (including one Catholic FCS school), have been dropping the name over the past decade. College of the Holy Cross, Valparaiso University, The Crusader mascot is currently the topic of debate, with the president, many alumni, and many faculty supporting a name change. However, there is no specific plan for a new mascot that has been proposed so far. (Valpo changed its nickname to the Crusaders at the beginning of WWII, because of anti-German sentiment.) North Greenville University,Script across the shield: "Christ makes the difference". Northwest Nazarene University, The University has declared an intent to change mascots, but have no concrete plan to implement change. Evangel University, “In the past there have been suggestions and committees formed to discuss changing the mascot entirely,” Underwood said. “However the idea has been tabled until further notice.” The mascot has come under fire for its historical ramifications, dating back to the Crusades. William Carey UniversityBelmont Abbey College (Catholic) Clarke University the Crusader mascot was changed into a lion named “Cutlass T Crusader,” creating distance between the mascot and the historical phenomenon of crusading.This new mascot got rid of all crusading imagery by creating him as a tiger, but there is still controversy in the name and an ongoing debate about it. Dallas Christian College. Crusader name only. No mascot. ++++++++++++++++++++++++ Was it not the NCAA that forced most of the changes away from Indian mascots?
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Post by Ray on Sept 29, 2017 15:53:38 GMT -5
What do people think of the idea of a widely disseminated public poll and public forum in which people can select from perhaps 5 options and can share their opinions? Would not that be the ultimate delivery in terms of embracing the Jesuit principles of informed and engaged interaction? Step 1 is to decide if you're changing anything, which is what Fr. Boroughs just kicked off. We're a long way away from a vote on alternatives.
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 29, 2017 16:09:02 GMT -5
RGS, nice job. A couple of months ago, I sent Fr. Boroughs the 1970 Class survey showing overwhelming support for retaining the Crusader. Fr. Boroughs, uncharacteristically, did not respond.
In the survey, here are a few of my personal comments:
"As a Catholic College, the Crusader represents a strong defense of our religion. In addition, the term "crusader" has come to mean one who participates in a 'remedial enterprise undertaken with zeal and enthusiasm." This is especially appropriate for the College's athletic teams and the way in which the students and graduates should fulfill the College's mission of 'men and women for others' - with zeal and enthusiasm."
I also wrote:
"I fully recognize that the College has made a concerted effort to increase diversity among the students and faculty and the numbers of non-Christian students is much greater than ever. Some of them might be offended about a 'warrior for Christ.' especially our Muslim and Jewish students. However, removal of the Crusader will not make the College any less Jesuit/Catholic. I have also read that a survey of current students that something like 86% voted to retain the name 'Crusader' and I am confident that 86% of the current students are not Catholic which tells me that many of the non-Catholics feel comfortable retaining the name/symbol. In addition, colleges and universities must not fall victim to 'political correctness' and to change things because someone might be offended by something that occurred in the Middle Ages. There are precious few things that don't offend SOMEONE. No one is forced to attend Holy Cross. If the symbol is so offensive, there are many other colleges and universities that are non-sectarian that they can attend."
And, while I wrote even more (of course), this:
"If people find the Crusader symbol offensive, they will also find the crosses and crucifixes on campus as offensive or even the name 'Holy Cross' as this was Constantine's symbol and the symbol of Catholic Christianity. Will our alma mater be re-named in the future, the 'College of Worcester.'"
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Post by crusader12 on Sept 29, 2017 16:15:35 GMT -5
This makes me sick! From the website it looks like the fix is already in to remove the sword and shield because it "promotes violence". I said it before, I think they keep the crusader name but remove all swords and shields from the imagery to say "well at least we did something".
In the words of the president of the united states: REALLY DISGUSTING!!!
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Post by HC92 on Sept 29, 2017 17:29:50 GMT -5
Fighting Irish is okay but Iggy promotes violence?
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Post by timholycross on Sept 29, 2017 19:10:20 GMT -5
Hey, in a world that Dr. Seuss is considered a racist, anything's possible.
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