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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 26, 2017 9:26:52 GMT -5
I was going to apologize that most of you took my last post seriously rather than tongue-in-cheek. However, it looks like it actually generated some really good and thoughtful posts. Glad I didn't put a smiley face at the end of the last post. Now, hopefully none of those subsequent posts were also tongue-in-cheek. The amount of verbiage written, often said with great fervor, about the nickname and mascot (both on this board and email chains that I get) far surpasses the amount devoted to the academic standing, academic credentials, and academic well-being of the college. Why is that?
In the hierarchy of what's important to HC as an institution, what does it say when so much thought is given to a possible change of a nickname/mascot, and so little is said about the academic challenges facing the school? __________________ The decline in classes taught by Jesuits is irreversible. Wait for the uproar when a woman is chosem as the next President of HC! This is not true. We have discussed the College's academics/admissions/ranking over and over and over for years on this board.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 26, 2017 9:34:34 GMT -5
Which comment is not true? It would be good to hear that the number of vocations to the Jesuit order has increased recently. If you refer to a woman president, I am not sure that would raise a furor in a school that now has a majority of women as students.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 26, 2017 9:35:16 GMT -5
The amount of verbiage written, often said with great fervor, about the nickname and mascot (both on this board and email chains that I get) far surpasses the amount devoted to the academic standing, academic credentials, and academic well-being of the college. Why is that?
In the hierarchy of what's important to HC as an institution, what does it say when so much thought is given to a possible change of a nickname/mascot, and so little is said about the academic challenges facing the school? __________________ The decline in classes taught by Jesuits is irreversible. Wait for the uproar when a woman is chosem as the next President of HC! This is not true. We have discussed the College's academics/admissions/ranking over and over and over for years on this board. Yes, on this board and the old board. But only a few ever participate in the discussion. And no one has ever said they are divorcing themselves from HC because the school made standardized tests optional, or is planning to build a PAC (though, for the latter, I recall one poster came close!),
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 26, 2017 9:43:54 GMT -5
Which comment is not true? It would be good to hear that the number of vocations to the Jesuit order has increased recently. If you refer to a woman president, I am not sure that would raise a furor in a school that now has a majority of women as students. The National Catholic Register (probably no friend of the Jesuits) assesses Jesuit vocations. www.ncregister.com/blog/reilly/american-jesuits-are-in-a-free-fall-and-the-crisis-is-getting-worseThe conclusion is in the title. With respect to a woman president, the difference in gender between posters on thus board and most of the greater Holy Cross community is remarkable.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 26, 2017 9:48:30 GMT -5
Sad to hear how bad it has gotten for the Jesuits. Perhaps one of their own in Rome could help inspire more to join?
True we have few women (perhaps no women) posting here at this time. That is too bad and deprives us of what could be some interesting input and perhaps a counterpoint to some strong board opinions. What makes you think that a woman president would cause an uproar among alumni/ae?
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Post by 6sader7 on Oct 26, 2017 9:50:43 GMT -5
I was going to apologize that most of you took my last post seriously rather than tongue-in-cheek. However, it looks like it actually generated some really good and thoughtful posts. Glad I didn't put a smiley face at the end of the last post. Now, hopefully none of those subsequent posts were also tongue-in-cheek. The amount of verbiage written, often said with great fervor, about the nickname and mascot (both on this board and email chains that I get) far surpasses the amount devoted to the academic standing, academic credentials, and academic well-being of the college. Why is that? In the hierarchy of what's important to HC as an institution, what does it say when so much thought is given to a possible change of a nickname/mascot, and so little is said about the academic challenges facing the school? __________________ The decline in classes taught by Jesuits is irreversible. Wait for the uproar when a woman is chosen as the next President of HC! Completely agree. One is a very easy and amusing conversation to have (mascot), the other takes a lot of though and work to fix. People generally gravitate towards easy rather than worthwhile. The mascot is a welcomed distraction from what's actually important.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 26, 2017 16:09:47 GMT -5
Sad to hear how bad it has gotten for the Jesuits. Perhaps one of their own in Rome could help inspire more to join? True we have few women (perhaps no women) posting here at this time. That is too bad and deprives us of what could be some interesting input and perhaps a counterpoint to some strong board opinions. What makes you think that a woman president would cause an uproar among alumni/ae? I was not at HC when it went coed. I believe there was a post or two on the mascot thread that some/many? students were very unhappy with that decision,. Perhaps the decades have made them more welcoming Three of the 28 Jesuit institutions are now headed by women. I thought I caught one school with a non-Catholic at the head, but learned he is a convert (perhaps a recent one). .
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 26, 2017 17:02:54 GMT -5
Sad to hear how bad it has gotten for the Jesuits. Perhaps one of their own in Rome could help inspire more to join? True we have few women (perhaps no women) posting here at this time. That is too bad and deprives us of what could be some interesting input and perhaps a counterpoint to some strong board opinions. What makes you think that a woman president would cause an uproar among alumni/ae? I was not at HC when it went coed. I believe there was a post or two on the mascot thread that some/many? students were very unhappy with that decision,. Perhaps the decades have made them more welcoming Three of the 28 Jesuit institutions are now headed by women. I thought I caught one school with a non-Catholic at the head, but learned he is a convert (perhaps a recent one). Was conversion a part of his contract?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 26, 2017 18:46:34 GMT -5
From the HC Common Data Sets.For 2007-200848 percent submitted SAT scores Verbal 25-75 percentiles 590-690 Math 25-75 percentiles 620-690 For 2016-201738 percent submitted SAT scores (the SAT scores are recalibrated back to the old way) Verbal 25-75 percentiles 600-680 Math 25-75 percentiles 620-690 From the Colgate CDS's.For 2007-200879 percent submitted SAT scores (21 percent submitted ACT) Verbal 25-75 percentiles 620-720 Math 25-75 percentiles 630-710 For 2016-201747 percent submitted SAT scores (53 percent ACT) Verbal 25-75 percentiles 640-720 Math 25-75 percentiles 650-740 IMO, Colgate is becoming more competitive and is clearly outpacing HC, which is stagnating. . Here are Lafayette, Bucknell, and Lehigh. LafayetteFor 2007-2008
95 percent submitted Verbal 25-75 percentiles 570-680 Math 25-75 percentiles 610-710 For 2016-2017
67 percent submitted Verbal 25-75 percentiles 580-680 Math 25-75 percentiles 620-710 BucknellFor 2010-11 (earlier years not available. There was a scandal)
84 percent submitted Verbal 25-75 percentiles 570-670 Math 25-75 percentiles 610-710 For 2016-2017
63 percent submitted Verbal 25-75 percentiles 580-670 Math 25-75 percentiles 610-710 LehighFor 2007-2008
95 percent submitted Verbal 25-75 percentiles 600-680 Math 25-75 percentiles 640-710 For 2016-2017
58 percent submitted Verbal 25-75 percentiles 590-680 Math 25-75 percentiles 640-740 Of the five schools, HC is the only one where the composite V/M score has flatlined. The others shoe slight improvement, Colgate's increase being an exception. With only 38 percent submitting SAT scores at HC, this percentage is markedly lower than the other four schools. The growth in the number of applicants submitting ACT scores is really remarkable.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 26, 2017 19:27:46 GMT -5
Of the five schools, HC is the only one where the composite V/M score has flatlined. The others shoe slight improvement, Colgate's increase being an exception. With only 38 percent submitting SAT scores at HC, this percentage is markedly lower than the other four schools. The growth in the number of applicants submitting ACT scores is really remarkable. PP - The test score differences between HC and Colgate/Lehigh/Lafayette/Bucknell are even more pronounced when one remembers HC is the only one of the 5 to practice 'test score optional' (wherein the stronger students are the most likely students to submit test scores). That is why so many fewer SATs are submitted at HC. This year 53% of the HC enrollees were in the top 10 of their high school class. A few have noted a declining applicant quality at HC. [Note: This is not saying HC is no longer a good school with good students and a wonderful faculty.] The ACT continues to gain in popularity. It is indeed interesting that these four PL schools compete with us on the sports field but have no significant applicant overlap with us. And they are certainly not geographic rivals w/HC. (That may account for the lukewarm sports rivalry that has never really taken off - for HC anyway - in the Patriot League).
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 26, 2017 19:50:12 GMT -5
From the HC Common Data Sets.For 2007-200848 percent submitted SAT scores Verbal 25-75 percentiles 590-690 Math 25-75 percentiles 620-690 For 2016-201738 percent submitted SAT scores (the SAT scores are recalibrated back to the old way) Verbal 25-75 percentiles 600-680 Math 25-75 percentiles 620-690 From the Colgate CDS's.For 2007-200879 percent submitted SAT scores (21 percent submitted ACT) Verbal 25-75 percentiles 620-720 Math 25-75 percentiles 630-710 For 2016-201747 percent submitted SAT scores (53 percent ACT) Verbal 25-75 percentiles 640-720 Math 25-75 percentiles 650-740 IMO, Colgate is becoming more competitive and is clearly outpacing HC, which is stagnating. . Here are Lafayette, Bucknell, and Lehigh. LafayetteFor 2007-2008
95 percent submitted Verbal 25-75 percentiles 570-680 Math 25-75 percentiles 610-710 For 2016-2017
67 percent submitted Verbal 25-75 percentiles 580-680 Math 25-75 percentiles 620-710 BucknellFor 2010-11 (earlier years not available. There was a scandal)
84 percent submitted Verbal 25-75 percentiles 570-670 Math 25-75 percentiles 610-710 For 2016-2017
63 percent submitted Verbal 25-75 percentiles 580-670 Math 25-75 percentiles 610-710 LehighFor 2007-2008
95 percent submitted Verbal 25-75 percentiles 600-680 Math 25-75 percentiles 640-710 For 2016-2017
58 percent submitted Verbal 25-75 percentiles 590-680 Math 25-75 percentiles 640-740 Of the five schools, HC is the only one where the composite V/M score has flatlined. The others shoe slight improvement, Colgate's increase being an exception. With only 38 percent submitting SAT scores at HC, this percentage is markedly lower than the other four schools. The growth in the number of applicants submitting ACT scores is really remarkable. This is getting more discouraging Fordham 2015-2016
Fordham has too few CDS years on the web to compare years. This is the most recent. 77 percent submitted V 580-670 M 590-680 Georgetown 2007-2008
93 percent submitted V 650-750 M 650-740 2016-2017
73 percent submitted V 660-760 M 660-760 Santa Clara 2007-2008
90 percent submitted V 540-650 M 570-670 2016-2017
50 percent submitted V 590-680 M 610-720 Boston University 2008-2009
90 percent submitted V 580-670 M 600-690 2016-2017
77 percent submitted V 580-680 M 620-730 I included Santa Clara because it is West Coast (more ACT out there historically) and, like Georgetown, is about 50 percent Catholic. In the space of about ten years, Santa Clara has picked up nearly 100 points and now surpasses Holy Cross. Is this because its drawing most of its students from the West Coast, or because it is only about 50 percent Catholic, or because it is more diverse, about 50 percent of the class of 2020 are white? Georgetown's 75th percentile picked up 30 points over the ten years. Holy Cross' 75th percentile dropped 10 points. Holy Cross is barely squeaking ahead of Fordham.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 26, 2017 20:00:30 GMT -5
M 620-730 I included Santa Clara because it is West Coast (more ACT out there historically) and, like Georgetown, is about 50 percent Catholic. In the space of about ten years, Santa Clara has picked up nearly 100 points and now surpasses Holy Cross. Is this because its drawing most of its students from the West Coast, or because it is only about 50 percent Catholic, or because it is more diverse, about 50 percent of the class of 2020 are white? Georgetown's 75th percentile picked up 30 points over the ten years. Holy Cross' 75th percentile dropped 10 points. Holy Cross is barely squeaking ahead of Fordham.Last year's college data set has Holy Cross with a 'test score optional" ACT average of 29 and Fordham at a 29 also. (Induced denial and then apoplexy on at least one poster when I pointed this out a few weeks ago....when I noted the large and growing gap v Villanova folks seemed to already know that).
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Post by ncaam on Oct 27, 2017 5:51:55 GMT -5
Here are Lafayette, Bucknell, and Lehigh. LafayetteFor 2007-2008
95 percent submitted Verbal 25-75 percentiles 570-680 Math 25-75 percentiles 610-710 For 2016-2017
67 percent submitted Verbal 25-75 percentiles 580-680 Math 25-75 percentiles 620-710 BucknellFor 2010-11 (earlier years not available. There was a scandal)
84 percent submitted Verbal 25-75 percentiles 570-670 Math 25-75 percentiles 610-710 For 2016-2017
63 percent submitted Verbal 25-75 percentiles 580-670 Math 25-75 percentiles 610-710 LehighFor 2007-2008
95 percent submitted Verbal 25-75 percentiles 600-680 Math 25-75 percentiles 640-710 For 2016-2017
58 percent submitted Verbal 25-75 percentiles 590-680 Math 25-75 percentiles 640-740 Of the five schools, HC is the only one where the composite V/M score has flatlined. The others shoe slight improvement, Colgate's increase being an exception. With only 38 percent submitting SAT scores at HC, this percentage is markedly lower than the other four schools. The growth in the number of applicants submitting ACT scores is really remarkable. This is getting more discouraging Fordham 2015-2016
Fordham has too few CDS years on the web to compare years. This is the most recent. 77 percent submitted V 580-670 M 590-680 Georgetown 2007-2008
93 percent submitted V 650-750 M 650-740 2016-2017
73 percent submitted V 660-760 M 660-760 Santa Clara 2007-2008
90 percent submitted V 540-650 M 570-670 2016-2017
50 percent submitted V 590-680 M 610-720 Boston University 2008-2009
90 percent submitted V 580-670 M 600-690 2016-2017
77 percent submitted V 580-680 M 620-730 I included Santa Clara because it is West Coast (more ACT out there historically) and, like Georgetown, is about 50 percent Catholic. In the space of about ten years, Santa Clara has picked up nearly 100 points and now surpasses Holy Cross. Is this because its drawing most of its students from the West Coast, or because it is only about 50 percent Catholic, or because it is more diverse, about 50 percent of the class of 2020 are white? Georgetown's 75th percentile picked up 30 points over the ten years. Holy Cross' 75th percentile dropped 10 points. Holy Cross is barely squeaking ahead of Fordham. Santa Clara has a more diverse curriculum and is located in the heart of the Silicon Valley.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 27, 2017 7:11:40 GMT -5
Read and weep, Holy Cross.
Composite (verbal and math) SAT scores 2016-17 for the 75th percentile, meaning 25 percent of the entering class who submitted SAT scores had scores at or above this composite score. If SAT is optional, it is so indicated. Notre Dame 1540 (36 percent submitted SAT scores) Georgetown 1520 (73 percent) Colgate 1460 (47 percent) Boston College 1450 (percentage unknown) Lehigh 1420 (58 percent) Villanova 1420 (50 percent) Boston University 1410 (77 percent) Santa Clara 1400 (50 percent) Lafayette 1390 (67 percent) Bucknell 1380 (63 percent) Holy Cross 1370 (38 percent) optional Fordham 1350 (77 percent) 2015-16 data American 1340 (50 percent) optional Loyola Marymount 1330 (61 percent) Loyola Maryland 1290 (55 percent) optional Fairfield 1270 (76 percent) optional St. Joe's 1230 (63 percent) optional 2015-16 data
All the schools above HC either increased their composite score from ten years prior, or remained level. HC's composite score dropped 10 points. BC and Notre Dame both up 30 points. (Villanova's public CDS does not go back ten years.)
As a metric, the 75th percentile should represent those applicants who test well comparatively, and for a school like HC, with SAT optional, the preponderance of students submitting SATs should be nearer the 75th percentile; the distribution under HC's curve is not bell-shaped.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 27, 2017 7:27:15 GMT -5
So, since ND has actually a lower percentage of SAT submissions, we should assume that the school is not optional but rather they can submit ACT scores instead, right?
How about a comparison of ACT scores? Does HC keep those as well?
And I am not totally convinced that the SAT optional skews the numbers upward as my understanding is 100% of athletes must submit SAT scores as required by the NCAA. While we like to say that our football and basketball players are "representative" of the school, are they "average?" My guess is they are average or slightly worse but not better than average. Just a guess. We also have a disproportionately high number of student-athletes who presumably are submitting their scores. I'll let you stat gurus do the analysis but it would almost seem that if every varsity player must submit SATs, almost none of the non-athletes are.
I am not weeping yet but certainly Holy Cross can and should be doing better in this area and admissions needs to do some serious introspection.
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Post by matunuck on Oct 27, 2017 8:07:58 GMT -5
I included Santa Clara because it is West Coast (more ACT out there historically) and, like Georgetown, is about 50 percent Catholic. In the space of about ten years, Santa Clara has picked up nearly 100 points and now surpasses Holy Cross. Is this because its drawing most of its students from the West Coast, or because it is only about 50 percent Catholic, or because it is more diverse, about 50 percent of the class of 2020 are white? Georgetown's 75th percentile picked up 30 points over the ten years. Holy Cross' 75th percentile dropped 10 points. Holy Cross is barely squeaking ahead of Fordham. 17 percent of Santa Clara's students are Asian www.forbes.com/colleges/santa-clara-university/
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Post by ncaam on Oct 27, 2017 8:14:17 GMT -5
STEM. Never gave HC a second thought for my son. Give up liberal arts only or die. IMHO
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Post by lou on Oct 27, 2017 8:19:12 GMT -5
According to our college president we have one of the finest science complexes in the business
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Post by hcpride on Oct 27, 2017 8:28:09 GMT -5
So, since ND has actually a lower percentage of SAT submissions, we should assume that the school is not optional but rather they can submit ACT scores instead, right? How about a comparison of ACT scores? Does HC keep those as well? And I am not totally convinced that the SAT optional skews the numbers upward as my understanding is 100% of athletes must submit SAT scores as required by the NCAA. While we like to say that our football and basketball players are "representative" of the school, are they "average?" My guess is they are average or slightly worse but not better than average. Just a guess. We also have a disproportionately high number of student-athletes who presumably are submitting their scores. I'll let you stat gurus do the analysis but it would almost seem that if every varsity player must submit SATs, almost none of the non-athletes are. I am not weeping yet but certainly Holy Cross can and should be doing better in this area and admissions needs to do some serious introspection. sader1970 - It is universally accepted (as you know) that 'test score optional' inflates college board score statistics because those students with the higher board scores are far more likely to submit them than students with lower board scores. Thus skewing the stats upward. The idea that HC would be an exception to this notion given its relatively high percentage of recruited athletes within an enrolled class is not persuasive. (By your novel theory, a return to 'test score required' would result in an even higher board score average...rest assured that even the densest admissions staff would jump to perform that course reversal.)
So, for example, if HC and Fordham both have an average ACT of 29 on last year's data sets (and they do), rest assured Fordham enrollees actually have a higher average. Given the very well-known 'test score optional' effect. This is no secret to parents, guidance counselors, and prospective students. One suspects that shortly Fordham will pass us by - if they have not already - the same way BC and Villanova have.
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Post by matunuck on Oct 27, 2017 8:29:34 GMT -5
HC does a absolutely horrendous job marketing its non-social science offerings. They spend 98 percent of their time pushing a social agenda.
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Post by matunuck on Oct 27, 2017 8:56:43 GMT -5
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 27, 2017 9:00:32 GMT -5
As for me . . . . die.
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Post by lou on Oct 27, 2017 9:05:45 GMT -5
HC does a absolutely horrendous job marketing its non-social science offerings. They spend 98 percent of their time pushing a social agenda. Wasn't the case during Phil Buroughs speech and panel discussion on Sunday. No social "agenda" and lots of discussion of our strengths in the sciences
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 27, 2017 9:19:09 GMT -5
Let me add that we have created the Holy Cross Insurance Professionals affinity group (like the lawyers and educators have). While we are trying to educate our current students of the many and varied careers in the insurance field for any major, we are trying to focus on our math majors who can have a lucrative career as actuaries and have a fair number of alums who have gone that route with great success. We have a number of math majors who have expressed serious interest in becoming actuaries and have had some recent grads start the process of becoming actuaries. www.linkedin.com/groups/8559327www.holycross.edu/alumni/crusaders-connect/affinity-groups/alumni-insurance-professionals-network
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Post by matunuck on Oct 27, 2017 9:25:07 GMT -5
HC does a absolutely horrendous job marketing its non-social science offerings. They spend 98 percent of their time pushing a social agenda. Wasn't the case during Phil Buroughs speech and panel discussion on Sunday. No social "agenda" and lots of discussion of our strengths in the sciences Yup, no agenda here www.holycross.edu/leadership/office-president/excerpt-presidents-fall-address-faculty-and-staff-2017In between the political sermons, be nice if he could spend just a bit more time explaining his plan to make HC MORE academically competitive and address the obvious slippage in our overall competitiveness. Can't find a single substantive explanation from him.
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