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Post by 6sader7 on Oct 22, 2017 16:49:03 GMT -5
Higher level would be CAA. Higher level would be CAA or Independent or a bevvy of other leagues that aren't the Pioneer conference...
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Post by HC92 on Oct 22, 2017 17:27:10 GMT -5
Independent is a non-starter. No other better conference would have us at this point. Let's win the PL more often than once every 25 years before we worry too much about conference affiliation. We can turn it around with the right man at the helm. If not, let's put the resources into hockey and basketball.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 22, 2017 18:58:49 GMT -5
I don't think HC has any plans or aspirations to leave the Patriot League
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Post by cfrivals on Oct 22, 2017 19:03:35 GMT -5
If not aspirations to leave PL or Atlantic Hockey, then the 100 mill was a waste and I doubt the donors would have given all that dough to stay pat.
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Post by jkh67 on Oct 22, 2017 19:06:36 GMT -5
Apparently, a number of posters have never spoken to or have heard from the administrators at Holy Cross, much less the faculty. The very reason that we are in the Patriot League and will remain for many, many, many more years to come is because there is a belief that the league is one of the very few that plays division 1 athletics with true student-athletes. The AI is a manifestation of that common belief. Holy Cross will either drop football altogether or drop to D-3 before it will ever get into a league in which the emphasis is on athlete over student. I believe what sader1998 posted is spot on. Nate will try to get a Carmody-like hire for head coach of football and he (not being sexist here because I don't think there are any women football head coaches) will have a specific amount of time, perhaps 5 years, to turn the program into a Patriot League champion consistently. Failing that, there won't be another football coach - they will pull the plug and use those saved expenses for other things. Heck, couldn't you pretty easily convert the indoor football practice field into a PAC? Plenty of room! I know nothing about HC's current admissions criteria for athletes (or any other students, for that matter). But I've seen lots of commentary deprecating the undue stringency of our standards...and I do personally recall reading about a case somewhere back there where a Massachusetts running back was denied admission to HC for academic reasons and went on to be a big time player for Colgate. Colgate, for God'd sake! IF OUR ADMISSIONS STANDARDS ARE TOUGHER THAN THE IVIES OR OTHER PL SCHOOLS, BOROUGHS NEEDS TO STEP UP AND CUT THAT B.S. OUT. IF HE WON'T DO THAT, HE'S PART OF THE PROBLEM, NOT THE SOLUTION.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 22, 2017 19:08:44 GMT -5
I don't think HC has any plans or aspirations to leave the Patriot League Not happening (anytime soon anyway)...as an institution we've become too intertwined in it for us to leave it at this point. The school has sort of morphed into a Patriot League-type school athletically over the last 30 years i.e. more sports, more student participation... less emphasis on "marquee" sports like football and basketball. I also believe the administration likes being a member of the PL as our admission standards continue to fall....perception being that we are still as exclusive/elite as schools like Colgate. Saying this...it's not mutually exclusive to say that the PL has severely hurt HC football and hindered HC basketball.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 22, 2017 20:07:19 GMT -5
On a positive note, the Patriot League is higher-ranked than the non-scholarship Pioneer League (Massey Rankings...I know they are not necessarily reliable): Colgate-51, Bucknell-71, Holy Cross-72, Lehigh-80, Fordham 98, Lafayette 101, Georgetown 113 (586) San Diego-50, Drake-79, Butler-84, Campbell 87, Dayton-97, Jacksonville 102, Valparisio-104 (603) www.masseyratings.com/cf/compare1aa.htmThe team that wins the Patriot League may be better than the team that wins the Pioneer League this year. It is too close to call right now.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 23, 2017 5:40:19 GMT -5
I don't think HC has any plans or aspirations to leave the Patriot League Not happening (anytime soon anyway)...as an institution we've become too intertwined in it for us to leave it at this point. The school has sort of morphed into a Patriot League-type school athletically over the last 30 years i.e. more sports, more student participation... less emphasis on "marquee" sports like football and basketball. I also believe the administration likes being a member of the PL as our admission standards continue to fall....perception being that we are still as exclusive/elite as schools like Colgate. Saying this...it's not mutually exclusive to say that the PL has severely hurt HC football and hindered HC basketball.
This year membership in PL Football is similar to our 'test score optional' scheme - sort of embarrassing but think of where our academic reputation/rankings would be if we dropped it.
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Post by joe on Oct 23, 2017 6:05:14 GMT -5
I’m pretty sure I recall certain players in the early 90s having to go through additional screening by HC if their academic records were below the HC average. In fact, I can recall meetings with folks fairly high up the chain, even the president. I further recall this taking place on recruitng visits. I also think for every low band athlete a high band was required, or somesuch thing. Between this and jimmy rigging aid and grant packages it was a complete cluster for recruiting. We cannot and should not go back to that garbage. Perhaps our admissions chairperson should be forward “rejections” of football players to the president’s office for final review. If our president wants succes without compromise, perhaps he’d enthusiastically pick-up that gauntlet, and make intelligent and strategic decisions in that regard.
Whatever everyone’s excuse or rationale is for us remaining in the PL, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s a crap football league. This year was telling. Further, if we wish to succeed, we need to remove the handcuffs, both those imposed by the league and those imposed by the college itself.
It would be amazing if HC could continue to be so self-important and high and mighty despite what’s going on right now, but they’ve been doing it for so many years now. Reality check! Holy Cross is not the best college on the planet. Never was, never will be. It’s a highly selective and very good liberal arts undergraduate little enclave on a hill guided by Jesuit ideals. Special and terrific, but we’re not Harvard. Sorry.
1. Non-medical redshirting 2. Max allowment of FCS scholarships 3. Discontinue AI, get help from admissions 4. Invest in top tier coaching staff 5. Leave PL 6. If 1-5 are done, revisit program future in 8 years.
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Post by ncaam on Oct 23, 2017 6:47:41 GMT -5
You want fr boroughs to review fb player apps? Of all the things that won’t happen that’s numero uno.
This is a function of adnp and Annie. If as we suspect Annie is a road block, adnp should ask each coach to give a couple examples where admissions hurt us. Adnp should then go to Annie and work things out.
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Post by joe on Oct 23, 2017 7:27:46 GMT -5
You want fr boroughs to review fb player apps? Of all the things that won’t happen that’s numero uno. This is a function of adnp and Annie. If as we suspect Annie is a road block, adnp should ask each coach to give a couple examples where admissions hurt us. Adnp should then go to Annie and work things out. I love when guys who never played football for HC tell folks how it was, can, or will be, and with such authority. I wish some other former players would step up to the microphone other than 67 (comments always spot on) and a few others, maybe some of the more prolific players from back in the day.
NCAAM - I'm telling you that former presidents have reviewed the transcripts of football players who needed additional consideration, even through the down years of the 90s. There, it's been said, and stated as fact. Seen it. It happened. Do what you want with that information. You're lucky to be getting it.
But to respond, I don't think it would be particularly onerous for Father B, who has long professed to be a supporter of athletics at HC, to sit back with a tall Dunkin' Donuts coffee and take a look at some transcripts a few times during recruiting season, at least until the process gets going. Frankly he'd probably enjoy it. This is how things get done at D1 football schools, even ones with the highest academic reps in the country, and this is how it needs to get done on the hill. No phone calls, no emails, just a few applications with red stickers on them for him to look through, and perhaps a 5 minute face-to-face between the president and the student. After looking at their application, talking to the head coach, talking to them and eye-balling them, Father B will get a good sense as to whether these 16-17 year old boys have what it takes to succeed academically at HC, and whether or not it's worth taking the risk on recommending their admission. And a young man will have a chance to meet with the president and "get the point" that unless he is serious about academics he should walk away now. This is how it gets done, boys.
And can we stop with the condescending and sexist "Annie" talk. From what I know Ann is a nice person. HC football's failure in dealing with admissions is almost certainly multifactorial, and re-evaluating criteria by which prospective football players are admitted on all levels in critical to our success. it won't get done with condescension.
Oh and one other thing, if it is not done already, football players should have the chance to take a full credit course in the summer following the Fr, So, and Jr seasons. This course should be challenging, but tailored to student-athletes. I would imagine some sort organizational management/history course dealing with leadership, organization and business building, etc., so many great possibilities for a motivated faculty or alum. In fact, I'd be happy to run that personally. And it would not be basketweaving, I can assure you. Add that to my previous list.
1. Non-medical redshirting 2. Max allowment of FCS scholarships 3. Discontinue AI, get help from admissions 4. Invest in top tier coaching staff 5. Leave PL 6. Offer full credit summer course for football players 7. If 1-5 are done, revisit program future in 8 years.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 23, 2017 7:30:33 GMT -5
No varsity athlete got by w/o Frank V approval. I assume he not only approved but that he was the person that the coach or AD could appeal to to make an exception.
I assume that will now fall on the Margaret F, the new provost but Fr. B will not be getting into that level of detail.
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Post by gks on Oct 23, 2017 7:48:10 GMT -5
It is not "sexist" to criticize the HC admissions office when it comes to athletics. This is not a football-specific problem. It is across the board. If you are an athlete (especially football) it is much, much harder for you to get in and get through the admissions office. I'm sorry, coaches who have been successful in the past simply do not suddenly forget how to coach. HC puts ridiculous constraints on themselves. While I hate the PL this is a HC problem and a HC problem alone. The amount of overall league titles HC has won in the past 10-15 years total is awful.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Oct 23, 2017 7:53:01 GMT -5
No varsity athlete got by w/o Frank V approval. I assume he not only approved but that he was the person that the coach or AD could appeal to to make an exception. I assume that will now fall on the Margaret F, the new provost but Fr. B will not be getting into that level of detail. Doesn't McDermott report to Burroughs? Like many others, having some accountability could be all that is needed to make a change. "If I hear about any more instances where a football player meets the AI criteria but gets denied admission to HC and ends up at a PL or Ivy school, we are going to have a problem." Should be pretty simple. There is no incentive for coaches to recruit players who can't survive academically at HC. As ncaam notes, it's on the athletic department to foster this change, because we know nothing positive would be originating from the other direction. Gather up all of the key examples where HC has been screwed by admissions, and present a compelling case.
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Post by joe on Oct 23, 2017 7:56:43 GMT -5
No varsity athlete got by w/o Frank V approval. I assume he not only approved but that he was the person that the coach or AD could appeal to to make an exception. I assume that will now fall on the Margaret F, the new provost but Fr. B will not be getting into that level of detail.
I know, and despite Frank V being not only a great guy and historically pro-athletics and pro-athlete, things have continued to fail.
Father B is "not getting into that level of detail," eh? Well maybe he should. He OK'd the restoration of football scholarships, the extension of Tom Gilmore, and the construction of an almost 100 million dollar sports megaplex on the hill. I'd say he is highly involved already and SHOULD be getting into "that level of detail," at least for a few recruiting seasons. That level of detail is where battles like these are won or lost. It's what separates the teams who land the game-breakers and those that do not. Thinking otherwise is naïve.
Once again, I'll say it: In D1 football, if you are in for a penny, you MUST BE in for a pound. No half-steps, no half-measures, no smoke and mirrors. We've proven that no coach on the planet can turn this ship around on his own. It's simply a fool's errand.
What I'm saying I direct to the marque sports. I am personally not interested in HC continuing to field and fund D1 minor sports, most of which are D1 in name only. You simply cannot be everything to everyone. And I agree with others that if we cannot fully support football, we need to drop the program or go D3.
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billy72
Climbing Mt. St. James
Posts: 95
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Post by billy72 on Oct 23, 2017 7:57:23 GMT -5
Hate to say it but current acceptance rate for HC is 39 percent, and Colgate is at 28.7 percent.
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Post by gks on Oct 23, 2017 8:04:35 GMT -5
Can't compare acceptance of regular students and athletes....apples to oranges. One example, SATs are not optional for athletes. Student-athletes getting denied are not dummies. HC was and has very stingy when it came to accepting so-called low band kids. This shrinks the prospect pool even smaller. Another self-inflicted wound.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 23, 2017 8:11:14 GMT -5
I don’t have an org chart with me but Frank V was senior VP and formerly the provost and, of course, past interim president of the College.
I believe that Ann may have reported directly to Frank but do know with certainty that any and all varsity athletes needed not only to get past Ann but Frank too.
That always gave me some thought whether Ann or Frank was the main obstacle to athletic admissions.
Maybe his role was a function of his past presidency that McFarland and Boroughs trusted him and delegated those reviews and now that he is not in that position, will the new provost fill that role or taken by Fr. B himself.
But anyone who thinks we will be leaving the PL anytime soon is misreading the tea leaves IMHO.
And as for athletes rejected by HC and going to other PL schools, in the past we have had posters from other PL schools claim the same thing - that a recruit got rejected by their school and ended playing for HC. I have no facts either way.
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Post by joe on Oct 23, 2017 8:22:28 GMT -5
Good points sader1970, but if we're reading tea leaves, what did they say about Nate Pine firing Tom Gilmore two weeks ago? I wasn't reading leaves at that time, but I for one postulated that if termination were being considered, why wait until the end of the year. I'm now postulating that we are in such dire straights that we are looking at a gut job here. Might as well pull all the punches. If the PL were up right now, I'd say otherwise. But the scholarship experiment has failed for the PL, and failed badly.
My feeling is that logic and practicality may finally be replacing stubbornness and posturing on the hill, and that at this point, anything can happen.
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billy72
Climbing Mt. St. James
Posts: 95
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Post by billy72 on Oct 23, 2017 8:24:53 GMT -5
I am just implying that school better do something about the escalating acceptance rate . We are no longer on “most selective “ status that we had a couple of years ago !
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Post by joe on Oct 23, 2017 8:36:13 GMT -5
Billy I'm not sure if and how the rising acceptance rate impacts the future of the football program. I would bet that once you account for prospective student-athletes going elsewhere or Holy Cross discontinuing recruitment for one reason or another, and many other variables, the acceptance rate among football-specific applicants is probably similar to the general population, or at least not significantly different enough such that it would influence that overall acceptance rate. I did see the data on acceptances published in the alumni magazine this month. Interesting, isn't it. We're not quite as elite as many of us would think. I suspect we may have needed to accept more students due to accepted students heading elsewhere, but I really don't know. The data needs to be looked out over time as there's a lot of variables including the strength of the applying class and other things that goes into interpreting that number accurately.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 23, 2017 8:40:11 GMT -5
Seems to me that Ivy, CAA, and NEC are showing increasing quality in their football programs and increasing quality of recruits.
Patriot League is going the other way.
Within the Patriot League I suspect we (HC) are not as attractive to academically qualifying students as some of our PL rivals given the state of our imploding football program. Our academic reputation (and readily available admission stats) certainly aren't helping vis a vis our Patriot League football rivals (as some still imagine they would).
Those who think we are at rock bottom right now may be engaging in wishful thinking. There is no reason to think the PL and HC will defy the systemic trends and bounce back next year.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 23, 2017 9:01:31 GMT -5
I’m pretty sure I recall certain players in the early 90s having to go through additional screening by HC if their academic records were below the HC average. In fact, I can recall meetings with folks fairly high up the chain, even the president. I further recall this taking place on recruitng visits. I also think for every low band athlete a high band was required, or somesuch thing. Between this and jimmy rigging aid and grant packages it was a complete cluster for recruiting. We cannot and should not go back to that garbage. Perhaps our admissions chairperson should be forward “rejections” of football players to the president’s office for final review. If our president wants succes without compromise, perhaps he’d enthusiastically pick-up that gauntlet, and make intelligent and strategic decisions in that regard. Whatever everyone’s excuse or rationale is for us remaining in the PL, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s a crap football league. This year was telling. Further, if we wish to succeed, we need to remove the handcuffs, both those imposed by the league and those imposed by the college itself. It would be amazing if HC could continue to be so self-important and high and mighty despite what’s going on right now, but they’ve been doing it for so many years now. Reality check! Holy Cross is not the best college on the planet. Never was, never will be. It’s a highly selective and very good liberal arts undergraduate little enclave on a hill guided by Jesuit ideals. Special and terrific, but we’re not Harvard. Sorry. 1. Non-medical redshirting 2. Max allowment of FCS scholarships 3. Discontinue AI, get help from admissions 4. Invest in top tier coaching staff 5. Leave PL 6. If 1-5 are done, revisit program future in 8 years. I would support 1, 2, 3, and 4...but before leaving the PL (or being ineligible for the PL title in FB as was the case with Fordham for a few years), then wait that 5-8 years and reevaluate at that point. Perhaps it is again time to lead the PL in a direction that HC wants to take (as we did with hoops and Fordham did with football scholarships). We do not need to continue to be the proverbial sheep, do we?
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 23, 2017 9:09:13 GMT -5
On the original threat title...I met with a former student yesterday who has coached (for about 15 years) and been in college athletic administration for over 20 years now. When I mentioned that some (on this forum) were critical of ADNP, he was legitimately surprised. He said that, in the athletic administration community, ADNP is highly regarded and that his opinions carry weight. He said that anyone who had worked with him could never feel he was anything but first rate and a leader among college athletic directors.
I just thought it might be nice to inject an "outsider's" opinion into this discussion.
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Post by Chu Chu on Oct 23, 2017 11:31:15 GMT -5
On the original threat title...I met with a former student yesterday who has coached (for about 15 years) and been in college athletic administration for over 20 years now. When I mentioned that some (on this forum) were critical of ADNP, he was legitimately surprised. He said that, in the athletic administration community, ADNP is highly regarded and that his opinions carry weight. He said that anyone who had worked with him could never feel he was anything but first rate and a leader among college athletic directors. I just thought it might be nice to inject an "outsider's" opinion into this discussion. I agree with this, just based on my personal interaction with him and all that he has undertaken thus far. There has been a revolution in our media, public relations, facilities and coach recruiting. He is heads and shoulders above his predecessor.
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