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Post by hcpride on Oct 25, 2017 15:46:10 GMT -5
Yes - Correct. Villanova acceptance rate ~44% and Providence ~50% Acceptance rates can be deceiving. If much higher quality students are applying to College A than College B and the two schools have the same acceptance rate, which school do you think has a higher aptitude student body? Excellent point - Villanova's reputation is certainly higher at this point and their incoming test scores and newest Acceptance Rate tell at least part of the story. (Those familiar with the effects of "Test Score Optional" and Early Decision realize the VU-HC numbers are not even close).
Villanova Accepted Students
SAT Math 620-720 range of middle 50% SAT Critical Reading 600-700 range of middle 50% SAT Writing 600-700 range of middle 50% ACT 30-32 range of middle 50% Acceptance Rate Class of 2021: 35.9
Holy Cross Accepted Students*
SAT Math 620-690 range of middle 50% SAT Critical Reading 600-680 range of middle 50% SAT Writing 600-700 range of middle 50% ACT 28-31 range of middle 50% Acceptance Rate Class of 2021: 39.0
*Note: Test Scores: This is notwithstanding the inflationary effect of HC's test score optional (wherein the strongest students are most likely to submit their test scores)...so the differences are arguably even greater.
* Note Acceptance Rate: This is notwithstanding the enhancing effect of HC' s Early Decision program which greatly reduces the acceptance rate. Next year (for Class of 2022) Villanova will utilize Early Decision and expectation is their acceptance rate will further drop to the mid-high 20's.
It is no secret HC admin sees an advantage - reputationally - to PL membership. Without it (in their minds) we slip closer to Providence and further away from schools like Villanova.
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Post by 6sader7 on Oct 25, 2017 15:46:44 GMT -5
For what it's worth, my son applied to both HC and Colgate. HC said no. He graduated from Colgate. In his 4 years there I can tell u that Colgate embraced the student-athlete as a vital piece of the overall Colgate experience. They accepted student athletes that other PL schools would not, on numerous occasions. The overall attitude towards their sports programs and the student athlete as a whole contrasted HCs in many ways. And somehow they still manage to be the highest rated academic institution in the Patriot League every year....Crazy!
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Post by hcpride on Oct 25, 2017 16:10:27 GMT -5
Is not Villanova is somewhere between Providence and HC? Yes - Correct. Villanova acceptance rate ~44% and Providence ~50% Updated Villanova acceptance rate is 35.9. (HC is now 39.0). Given Villanova's academic requirements for admission (I printed the stats, above) it is not surprising their reputation exceeds ours. I am only surprised when some folks don't realize that. I suppose there are some folks still lost about BC, BU and Northeastern reputations also - things change. (I know you are aware of our current reputation and was not directing my comment at you)
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Post by HC1843 on Oct 25, 2017 19:35:49 GMT -5
Yes - Correct. Villanova acceptance rate ~44% and Providence ~50% Acceptance rates can be deceiving. If much higher quality students are applying to College A than College B and the two schools have the same acceptance rate, which school do you think has a higher aptitude student body? These days, Villanova. Group hugs will not rectify how much we have slipped. Many will continue to bury their heads in the sand so they can sleep better at night. Cheers.
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Post by alum on Oct 26, 2017 7:27:55 GMT -5
We have all of these sports because we don't really know how we think about ourselves, indentity wise. Are we an Ivy? Too small. Are we a NESCAC? Too big, except for Tufts, not enough preppies and D1 athletics. We could dump football and hockey and use all of the admissions slots for basketball, play anyone anywhere and try to make a bigger name for ourselves so that the BE would want us or We could try to figure out why some of our PL opponents (thinking especially of Colgate) seem to do this better than we do. What's the difference? When I posted this, I was thinking about athletics, but I see that this thread has taken a turn to talking about why kids today like Nova more than HC. I am trying to understand what we think of ourselves athletically. The Ivy's and NESCAC's offer as many or more sports than we do because they believe that participation matters. My point is that we have seemed to be trying to emulate that. Colgate just kicked our butts in football. It is a smaller school with tougher admissions standards and offers the same mix of sports we do--including ice hockey although they don't have baseball. We finish in comparable spots in the PL President's Cup. Are they getting more football players because their US News ranking is #12? I think the school we really need to look at is Bucknell. They finish above us in the President's Cup each year. They have a comparable endowment, identical US News ranking, a 20% larger student body, a 31% acceptance rate compared to our 39% rate, and 55% more applicants. They have engineering and some business majors. Why are they doing so much better athletically? Do they have more scholarships? Do they have better pull in admissions. I don't purport to understand the PL academic index type formula, but if their students have higher scores, shouldn't it be harder for them to get athletes in? I don't claim to have the answers but as I don't think that we are leaving the PL any time soon, I think we have to figure out how successful programs in the PL do it. FWIW, if one of the problems is that we don't offer majors that football players want, know that I would rather lose in or drop football than try to offer classes in management and marketing. I like HC as a true liberal arts college with the economics accounting sub major and have previously expresses that I would be amenable to a similar economics finance sub major.
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Post by spenser on Oct 26, 2017 7:32:38 GMT -5
I agree with the bottom line here. Good points throughout.
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Post by nhteamer on Oct 26, 2017 8:29:05 GMT -5
Most schools manipulate their acceptance rate by encouraging everyone to apply irrespective of their odds of getting in. BC does that
Want that 39% to be 20%? Don't charge an application fee and accept the common app alone......DONE
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Post by hcpride on Oct 26, 2017 8:43:25 GMT -5
Most schools manipulate their acceptance rate by encouraging everyone to apply irrespective of their odds of getting in. BC does that Want that 39% to be 20%? Don't charge an application fee and accept the common app alone......DONE Not a fan of BC but I think they do require a supplemental essay and they do require an application fee.
BC (32% Acceptance Rate) does not do Early Decision (greatly reduces acceptance rate if done)...yet.
Villanova (35.9% Acceptance Rate) clearly has it sights on closing the gap with BC. (Villanova just went Early Decision for next year)
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 26, 2017 9:10:14 GMT -5
Is it really that easy? Cripes, aren't apps done on line now? If other schools don't charge an app fee, why are we? Gotta be more complicated than that.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 26, 2017 9:31:29 GMT -5
Most schools manipulate their acceptance rate by encouraging everyone to apply irrespective of their odds of getting in. BC does that Want that 39% to be 20%? Don't charge an application fee and accept the common app alone......DONE Bingo
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Post by Tom on Oct 26, 2017 9:40:32 GMT -5
FWIW, if one of the problems is that we don't offer majors that football players want, know that I would rather lose in or drop football than try to offer classes in management and marketing. I like HC as a true liberal arts college with the economics accounting sub major and have previously expresses that I would be amenable to a similar economics finance sub major. Straying way off the topic of Nate Pine, but back in the day Coach Carter used to recruit kids that wanted an Engineering degree by offering a 3-2, then with WPI. I can think of three classmates off the top of my head that were in that program and played football. HC offers the same program today with Columbia and Dartmouth (I think) and I know they dropped the WPI affiliation, but resurrecting that would be one way to alleviate the major problem
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 26, 2017 9:42:15 GMT -5
I remember that as well and knew some who came to HC because of that option.
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Post by 6sader7 on Oct 26, 2017 10:06:33 GMT -5
This conversation certainly has taken several very interesting turns.
The last thing I'll say with regard to ADNP:
I believe he wants HC Athletics to be successful and has demonstrated this via the Luth.
His biggest challenge with regard to football is going to be our own Administration.
If we don't change the paradigm with regard to how we approach recruiting student athletes we are destined for short term mediocrity, which will certainly lead to long term failure.
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Post by CHC8485 on Oct 26, 2017 12:00:59 GMT -5
FWIW, if one of the problems is that we don't offer majors that football players want, know that I would rather lose in or drop football than try to offer classes in management and marketing. I like HC as a true liberal arts college with the economics accounting sub major and have previously expresses that I would be amenable to a similar economics finance sub major. Straying way off the topic of Nate Pine, but back in the day Coach Carter used to recruit kids that wanted an Engineering degree by offering a 3-2, then with WPI. I can think of three classmates off the top of my head that were in that program and played football. HC offers the same program today with Columbia and Dartmouth (I think) and I know they dropped the WPI affiliation, but resurrecting that would be one way to alleviate the major problem Have been a proponent of this for a couple of years. I'd be curious to know how many students (not just athletes) have been part of the 3-2 program before and after the switch was made from WPI. Seems to me having classes across town where the athlete can take classes and still participate in the life of Holy Cross (as an athlete or in whatever part of the college is your jam - as the kids say today) for 4 years is a lot more attractive than coming to HC for 3 years then going somewhere else for 2.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Oct 26, 2017 12:10:13 GMT -5
This conversation certainly has taken several very interesting turns. The last thing I'll say with regard to ADNP: I believe he wants HC Athletics to be successful and has demonstrated this via the Luth. His biggest challenge with regard to football is going to be our own Administration. Do you think that Dick Regan didn't "want" HC athletics to be successful? Do you think that Tom Gilmore didn't "want" HC football to be successful? Do you think Sean Kearney and Milan Brown didn't "want" HC basketball to be successful? Do you think that Kevin Anderson didn't "want" Army and Maryland football to be successful? 99% of the people in athletics "want" to win and be successful -- having the ability to execute against that and actually driving results in the key, and Nate Pine as shown very little in the area of actually driving more success and wins. The Administration is certainly a challenge, but the biggest challenge on Nate's plate is finding the best possible coach for the HC football program. (The Luth was in motion and happening whether we had Dick Regan, Nate Pine, or Larry The Cable Guy as the Athletics Director.)
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Post by 6sader7 on Oct 26, 2017 12:25:50 GMT -5
This conversation certainly has taken several very interesting turns. The last thing I'll say with regard to ADNP: I believe he wants HC Athletics to be successful and has demonstrated this via the Luth. His biggest challenge with regard to football is going to be our own Administration. Do you think that Dick Regan didn't "want" HC athletics to be successful? Do you think that Tom Gilmore didn't "want" HC football to be successful? Do you think Sean Kearney and Milan Brown didn't "want" HC basketball to be successful? Do you think that Kevin Anderson didn't "want" Army and Maryland football to be successful? 99% of the people in athletics "want" to win and be successful -- having the ability to execute against that and actually driving results in the key, and Nate Pine as shown very little in the area of actually driving more success and wins. The Administration is certainly a challenge, but the biggest challenge on Nate's plate is finding the best possible coach for the HC football program. (The Luth was in motion and happening whether we had Dick Regan, Nate Pine, or Larry The Cable Guy as the Athletics Director.) [ My comment was intended to highlight the fact that I don’t believe out Administration is committed to athletic success. They ultimately control budgets, salaries, and recruiting.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Oct 26, 2017 12:30:58 GMT -5
Do you think that Dick Regan didn't "want" HC athletics to be successful? Do you think that Tom Gilmore didn't "want" HC football to be successful? Do you think Sean Kearney and Milan Brown didn't "want" HC basketball to be successful? Do you think that Kevin Anderson didn't "want" Army and Maryland football to be successful? 99% of the people in athletics "want" to win and be successful -- having the ability to execute against that and actually driving results in the key, and Nate Pine as shown very little in the area of actually driving more success and wins. The Administration is certainly a challenge, but the biggest challenge on Nate's plate is finding the best possible coach for the HC football program. (The Luth was in motion and happening whether we had Dick Regan, Nate Pine, or Larry The Cable Guy as the Athletics Director.) [ My comment was intended to highlight the fact that I don’t believe out Administration is committed to athletic success. They ultimately control budgets, salaries, and recruiting. Our budgets (and salaries) appear to have grown very significantly over the last couple years. However, only Pak Phreek will be able to tell with whatever public documents become available after the lag in when they are released.
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Post by 6sader7 on Oct 26, 2017 13:01:35 GMT -5
Great - I'm not sure how else to better express what a Colgate parent on this board already has:
"For what it's worth, my son applied to both HC and Colgate. HC said no. He graduated from Colgate. In his 4 years there I can tell u that Colgate embraced the student-athlete as a vital piece of the overall Colgate experience. They accepted student athletes that other PL schools would not, on numerous occasions. The overall attitude towards their sports programs and the student athlete as a whole contrasted HCs in many ways."
Again, Colgate is a higher rated academic institution than Holy Cross and is located in the middle of nowhere.
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Post by gks on Oct 26, 2017 13:52:21 GMT -5
Colgate wants to win. It's simple.
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Post by alum on Oct 26, 2017 14:27:06 GMT -5
I don't think there has ever been a thread that has taken more twists and turns then this one so let me take another turn.
There are some here who equate having better admissions stats with having a better college and I just don't think it is that simple. While we have an ego thing about having athletic recruits want to come to HC, we are all much more concerned about how they actually perform once they get to Worcester. On the other hand, as to the student body as a whole, there is almost no discussion here about the results on the academic side. Everything begins and ends with our percentage of students admitted and their average SAT scores. If the College wanted to drive down the acceptance rate, they could do as some have suggested and make applications free. They could also send out 100,000 mailers to high school juniors with SAT scores above 1200 and hire ten more admissions counselors to go out and talk to high school kids. This would generate a lot more applications although it might drive yield down some. (That said, my son who works in college admissions tells me that there are programs which can predict whether any particular student is likely to attend.) If we did all of this, I imagine that applications might rise enough to push the admission rate down to the low 30% range. Would a few more kids decide to come because the fact that the College had a lower acceptance rate made them feel smarter or superior? I suppose. Would the College be any better? OF COURSE NOT.
The whole thing is insane but you do have to play the game.
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Post by cruskater31 on Oct 26, 2017 15:36:45 GMT -5
Interesting observation about our present student body. The most recent issue of The Crusader, which I picked up at PC weekend, had 3 pages of sports coverage. There was one article about HC football and a small assortment of pictures and scores from other sports. 2/3 of the sports pages are about pro and FBS college sports. They are probably staying in and watching the top 25 games. Much ink has been spilled here over how to entice them. Winning is a good start!
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Post by hcgrad94 on Oct 26, 2017 20:00:52 GMT -5
Colgate wants to win. It's simple. Ummm really? In Basketball? Have you seen where they are in PL Commissioners Cup?
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Post by hcpride on Oct 26, 2017 20:08:02 GMT -5
Colgate wants to win. It's simple. Ummm really? In Basketball? Have you seen where they are in PL Commissioners Cup? I think he is referencing football in this thread. Does anyone really care about the PL (Is it Presidents' or Commissioners'?) Cup?
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Oct 26, 2017 23:33:38 GMT -5
I very much doubt if the “Crusader” is the problem. And Rams can be vicious. Rams are also all male by nature. The Fordham mascot is sexist! Remove it now!
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