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Post by realism on Oct 16, 2017 12:09:30 GMT -5
EMERGENCY, DAMAGE CONTROL— THAT’S THE ESSENSE OF THIS WEEKEND.
There’s a juxtaposition in my mind. 1 On one screen in my mind is the unusual accommodation that Yale made in the second half to a Holy Cross team that didn't seem to belong on that field. Yale not only wanted to be a good sport. It wanted to contain the damage.( The subtlety here can't be overlooked if you understand H.C.'s objectives in using athletics as branding. As host, Yale had to exercise a certain "paternalism" to keep things in check. To the viewer of the game, it was a statement that perhaps H.C. didn't belong there--precisely the impression that's anathema to H.C.'s branding strategy. ) 2. On another screen in my mind is the schedule of @ Syracuse on 8/31/19 and @ Navy on 9/7/19—back to back weekends of FCS-FBS games. ( Thoughts racing through my head—"is there any oversight here for safety ?—the H.C. institution that was on the field with Yale is going to be playing these games back-to-back. Oh my ?" ) 3. Screen 3 is ADNP, Sat. night, post-Yale game waking up in a cold-sweat in full panic attack mode. ( In case you’re wondering, Screen 1 and 2, above, are juxtaposed in ADNP's sleepless head with his own third screen: the TPTB of H.C., pichforks in hand, yelling, “But, how does this crap improve the brand, Natie ?” )
We’ve talked about what followed on Sunday morning. I think there was more than the H.C. football team that, in "Natie's" words, "was spiraling." And some have even alluded to the fact that firing Gilmore required making good on the remaining portion of his three year extension contract. I’ll bet that making him $-whole in his contract amounts to a larger H.C. outflow than the aggregate “paydays” inflows of these two 2019 FBS games. Anyone have more details ? Seems like a number of DUMB decisions. What am I missing ?
Any additional embarrassments for H.C. are counter-productive to their idea of using athletics to enhance their brand. If Navy to Syracuse, as game hosts, would have to go into a "paternalistic looking" damage control mode, it reinforces the perception that H.C. doesn't belong there. Scheduling back-to-back FBS games for a school in H.C.'s situation smacks of desperation. Nothing less ! Doesn’t the potential of injuries and other embarrassing effects offset a lot of the Sader “branding” benefits of the aggressive scheduling that ADNP sold to the T.P.T.B. ?
With all due respect, I find the optimism Sader fans are expressing right now about the impact of a new coach to be “whistling past the cemetery.” Can ADNP now tell TPTB that with all of a new coach's initial responsibilities, he can simultaneously recruit the needed bodies for playing teams traditionally outside of H.C.'s competitive reach, beginning in 2018 and ramping up from there ? That he can immediately assemble a team to play two 2019 "payday-games" without losing a step ? ( A very unusual requirement for an FCS coach, let alone a new one. ) Expecting good performance with these schedules in the next couple of years now seems unrealistic because executing Plan B at this late date pushes everything back. PP, the coterie of his redshirt Sr. pals and the disproportionate number of Srs, on the two deep are leaving the cupboard bare for HCTG's successor. Yet "Natie's" introduction of his Plan B on Sunday ushers in higher expectations for the new head coach than had been the case with Gilmore. Fans seem to have blindspots in adjusting their expectations. As we observe this sudden switch of gears, we have to question whether the pieces of ADNP's strategy remain in sync ? I think fans will be called upon to defer their gratification for a longer period and endure some more pain in the years immediately ahead. Fans like to talk about how a great a project the "Luth" is with its many utilitarian benefits for the athletics program overall. It remains to be proven how much it actually improves H.C. football over various rime intervals ? Enthusiasm about the “Luth" seems to drown out the reality that 4 years into ADNP’s program, ( and many new coaches later ), there isn’t much improvement in performance overall, if any. Have the “Luth," the “ scheduling of prestige schools” and now a mid-season switch to a new coach become a distraction away from realistic expectations ? Perhaps in aggregate these distractions are serving as a Trojan horse preventing a sane look at reality ?
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Post by 6sader7 on Oct 16, 2017 12:20:00 GMT -5
The team that played against UConn can easily physically compete with Syracuse or Navy -- Coaching is the primary factor here.
Also, Navy is a generally very undersized team - Their offensive line averages about 265lb across the board and they're not putting up more impressive numbers in the weight room either.
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Post by Ray on Oct 16, 2017 12:44:42 GMT -5
Realism, you're assuming a lot of facts not in evidence, and your obvious disdain for ADNP is coloring your thoughts, IMO.
The idea of NP in a "cold sweat" about this is laughable. Say what you will about the branding efforts, but the guy has been nailing coaching hires since he got to HC. They're one of his top responsibilities, and you can bet he's been preparing for this search for a long time. The final decision here may have come quickly, but it's undoubtedly the culmination of a long process. As NP said in the T&G article, he's essentially been evaluating Gilmore for four years now.
As far as a payout to TG, you have no idea what his termination terms are. It was widely speculated when he signed his last extension two years ago, that it wasn't fully guaranteed. I wouldn't be surprised if we owe TG absolutely nothing for next year. But I don't know the specifics, and neither do you. Don't pretend otherwise.
As for Luth, you're the first person I've seen characterize it as "utilitarian". It's much better than that if you measure against FCS tier/schools we recruit against.
With all due respect, your post makes it sound like you have a vendetta against NP. This is one of the most important decisions/searches of his HC tenure. This is what he gets paid to do. Sit back and see how it plays out.
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Post by bigfan on Oct 16, 2017 13:05:45 GMT -5
"realism" has it completely wrong, NP is right and he is doing a great job compared to the prior AD.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 16, 2017 13:20:54 GMT -5
The use of the name "Natie" to refer to the AD tells us all we need to know about the objectivity of the poster.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Oct 16, 2017 13:28:38 GMT -5
The team that played against UConn can easily physically compete with Syracuse or Navy -- Coaching is the primary factor here. Also, Navy is a generally very undersized team - Their offensive line averages about 265lb across the board and they're not putting up more impressive numbers in the weight room either. Agree here. Many posters here don't follow FCS football as a whole and aren't aware of how common and ho-hum FCS-FBS scheduling is. So many teams much worse than even the current Holy Cross team have played against P5 programs better, faster and stronger than '17 UConn and what'18 BC and '19 Syracuse will be. And many FCS teams that haven't smelt the jockstrap of the FCS top 25 have won FBS games. The game that actually scares me the most, both in terms of injuries and a potentially really embarrassing score is Navy. While undersized, their cut-blocking schemes tend to result in more injuries than usual and their #3 QBs, #2 & 3 OL and #7 & 8 slot-backs might be just as effective at eating up yards late in a blowout as the first teamers.
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Post by 6sader7 on Oct 16, 2017 13:47:17 GMT -5
The thing about a team like Navy (That I've been watching play since I was a child) is that they can absolutely destroy an undisciplined defense -- And once you're down by 2 scores the game starts to get away from you pretty quickly.
With regard to injuries, I really don't think we have much to worry about -- At least no more so than we did with Bucknell when they were pretty much trying to cut on every play.
I think the passing game that we brought out against UConn would have given Navy a lot of grief, actually.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Oct 16, 2017 14:37:11 GMT -5
"realism" has it completely wrong, NP is right and he is doing a great job compared to the prior AD. Are you a robot who was programmed to write that response? Comparisons to the last AD are basically irrelevant, as you would be hard pressed to find anyone who thought he did even an average job. It would be like comparing Milan Brown to Sean Kearney, and saying that Milan was a great coach because he wasn't as bad as Kearney (even though that may also be debatable). The "everything is awesome, nothing to see here" attitude with regard to Pine's tenure as an AD is quite laughable given how few tangible results he has actually delivered. We should all be very cautious about this coaching search if he is going to completely insulate himself like he did in the basketball search. There is absolutely nothing on his resume that indicates he would know how to build a successful football program. A summary of his mentor, Kevin Anderson's coaching hires: Stan Brock (Army): 6-18 Rich Ellerson (Army): 20-42 Randy Edsall (Maryland): 22-34 DJ Durkin (Maryland): 10-10 A total record of 58-104 (.358). Not good.Let's build ourselves a search committee (not search firm), and get this thing right.
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Post by hchoops on Oct 16, 2017 15:46:27 GMT -5
Again, Anderson's record is irrevant Do you wish to be judged by your previous boss' resume ?
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Post by inhocsigno on Oct 16, 2017 16:01:35 GMT -5
Not sure why there is so much hate for Nate. We should not overlook the simple fact that his self interests (job preservation and chance to move up that old ladder) and our interests (winning) are entirely aligned.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Oct 16, 2017 16:04:29 GMT -5
Again, Anderson's record is irrevant Do you wish to be judged by your previous boss' resume ? I don't know how you can say it's irrelevant. Using another example that's close to home, Mike Brey's assistants have been AWFUL as head coaches. If we had another basketball opening, should we ignore that track record when evaluating the assistant coaches from Notre Dame (a place that would seen like a natural fit to translate to Holy Cross)? Was Mike K's success as a coach at Duke a reason why Woj and Chris Collins were recently hired at Marquette and Northwestern? Athletic Directors, Assistant ADs, Assistant Coaches, etc. don't "own" their records the same way that Head Coaches do, but to simply ignore that track record and toss it out as a non-factor is just not logical. And this is not to say that because Kevin Anderson has done a lousy job that Nate Pine will also do a lousy job, but to look at Nate's resume and think that this is someone who is going to have all of the answers for us is just plain naive. He needs to surround himself with people who have experience "in the arena" when he's making decisions like this one.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Oct 16, 2017 16:09:04 GMT -5
Not sure why there is so much hate for Nate. We should not overlook the simple fact that his self interests (job preservation and chance to move up that old ladder) and our interests (winning) are entirely aligned. 1) Yes, they are aligned, but that does not mean he is automatically going to make a good hire.Just like hiring a young and hungry coach who has visions of coaching in the ACC some day does not automatically mean that he's actually going to be a good coach and win games. 2) See realism's comment about the "Trojan Horse," along with kicking the can down Hockey East Road for examples of things that may make Nate look good in the short term, but not align our athletic program for success in the long term, when he hopes to already be "up that old ladder."
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Post by hchoops on Oct 16, 2017 16:12:55 GMT -5
Again, Anderson's record is irrevant Do you wish to be judged by your previous boss' resume ? I don't know how you can say it's irrelevant. Using another example that's close to home, Mike Brey's assistants have been AWFUL as head coaches. If we had another basketball opening, should we ignore that track record when evaluating the assistant coaches from Notre Dame (a place that would seen like a natural fit to translate to Holy Cross)? Was Mike K's success as a coach at Duke a reason why Woj and Chris Collins were recently hired at Marquette and Northwestern? Athletic Directors, Assistant ADs, Assistant Coaches, etc. don't "own" their records the same way that Head Coaches do, but to simply ignore that track record and toss it out as a non-factor is just not logical. And this is not to say that because Kevin Anderson has done a lousy job that Nate Pine will also do a lousy job, but to look at Nate's resume and think that this is someone who is going to have all of the answers for us is just plain naive. He needs to surround himself with people who have experience "in the arena" when he's making decisions like this one.
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Post by hchoops on Oct 16, 2017 16:16:09 GMT -5
You did not answer my question I never said that NP is guaranteed to make a great hire You presume he will make a bad hire
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Post by bringbackcaro on Oct 16, 2017 16:18:42 GMT -5
You did not answer my question I never said that NP is guaranteed to make a great hire You presume he will make a bad hire I am not assuming anything. To answer your question, if my last boss was not good at his job, I would not wish to be judged by his performance.
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Post by inhocsigno on Oct 16, 2017 16:19:17 GMT -5
Not sure why there is so much hate for Nate. We should not overlook the simple fact that his self interests (job preservation and chance to move up that old ladder) and our interests (winning) are entirely aligned. 1) Yes, they are aligned, but that does not mean he is automatically going to make a good hire.Just like hiring a young and hungry coach who has visions of coaching in the ACC some day does not automatically mean that he's actually going to be a good coach and win games. 2) See realism's comment about the "Trojan Horse," along with kicking the can down Hockey East Road for examples of things that may make Nate look good in the short term, but not align our athletic program for success in the long term, when he hopes to already be "up that old ladder." It is not like he is going to become the AD at Notre Dame from HC. This is his career and if he hopes to move up in the long run, the decisions he makes will be on his resume throughout. I will give him the benefit of the doubt that what he is doing (in his opinion) are in the best interests of the teams/programs. If he is wrong, we will have to be accountable, the same as anyone else in their careers. I disregarded realism's post because he does not understand that scheduling FBS games is actually good for the program, whether we win, lose or lose big. He is also the newly crowned Top Debbie Downer on the site.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Oct 16, 2017 16:21:44 GMT -5
1) Yes, they are aligned, but that does not mean he is automatically going to make a good hire.Just like hiring a young and hungry coach who has visions of coaching in the ACC some day does not automatically mean that he's actually going to be a good coach and win games. 2) See realism's comment about the "Trojan Horse," along with kicking the can down Hockey East Road for examples of things that may make Nate look good in the short term, but not align our athletic program for success in the long term, when he hopes to already be "up that old ladder." It is not like he is going to become the AD at Notre Dame from HC. This is his career and if he hopes to move up in the long run, the decisions he makes will be on his resume throughout. I will give him the benefit of the doubt that what he is doing (in his opinion) are in the best interests of the teams/programs. If he is wrong, we will have to be accountable, the same as anyone else in their careers. I disregarded realism's post because he does not understand that scheduling FBS games is actually good for the program, whether we win, lose or lose big. He is also the newly crowned Top Debbie Downer on the site. I agree with you regarding FBS scheduling and don't care how much we lose those games by, but the larger point that I took from realism was regarding the myth that we are in the midst of some sort of masterful national "branding" initiative.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 16, 2017 16:36:13 GMT -5
The team that played against UConn can easily physically compete with Syracuse or Navy -- Coaching is the primary factor here. Also, Navy is a generally very undersized team - Their offensive line averages about 265lb across the board and they're not putting up more impressive numbers in the weight room either. I don't have a dog in this fight but Syracuse under their 3rd-year coach is a FBS team on the rise. They beat Clemson (Ranked 2nd, FBS) a few days ago and knocked star Clemson quarterback Kelly Bryant out of the game with a 1st half concussion. Navy (5-1 this year BTW) is no FBS joke. I did notice that once UConn (whose defensive star was bounced early) put in their starting QB (he has started ever since) they torched us for 3 quick TDs. And won. So I didn't take as many positives away from that one as some folks. I know it is 22 months or so away but I would have very serious concerns about this scheduling no matter the era of HC football we are talking about. Two potential enormous consecutive blowouts is something I would avoid scheduling. Just keeping it real. (I have a concern about the talent level of the HC frosh and sophs in that they were not able to (by and large) crack the starting lineup on a team that, to be fair, is not too good even by PL standards. Maybe that is part of the internal issue for this year's team so I may be off base there. But it at least throws up a caution flag in terms of the next few years...and this year's recruiting might understandably be an issue too. )
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Post by realism on Oct 16, 2017 17:10:02 GMT -5
I agree with you regarding FBS scheduling and don't care how much we lose those games by, but the larger point that I took from realism was regarding the myth that we are in the midst of some sort of masterful national "branding" initiative. You have it right, bringbackcaro. I actually have thought that the scheduling that ADNP put together was theoretically masterful. I have no opinion about whether ADNP will be able to really upgrade H.C. football, or athletic PERFORMANCE in general. I certainly don't think ADNP brought this kind of skill with him. But, I bought into the "branding" value of the new schedules for H.C. because, in reality, the opponents are nowhere near "peer schools" of H.C. today. It creates the impression for the unwashed that H.C. belongs in those circles. Posters sure bit on it. However, what was witnessed at Yale on Saturday was a real psycho-downer for H.C.--because of the way they had to be paternalistically managed. The score didn't matter. ADNP may have screwed up the benefits of "rubbing elbows" with future opponents by waiting so long to execute Plan B--replacing HCTG. Now, the .500 overall football schedule results in the early years ( '18-'19-'20 ) that I thought would make the schedules acceptable are really in doubt. And the scheduling of Navy and Syracuse in the same year is a mark of desperation. No other FCS schoo would do it. Makes you believe, as some say, that H.C. really does have self-desrructive karma.
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Post by inhocsigno on Oct 16, 2017 17:29:10 GMT -5
I agree with you regarding FBS scheduling and don't care how much we lose those games by, but the larger point that I took from realism was regarding the myth that we are in the midst of some sort of masterful national "branding" initiative. You have it right, bringbackcaro. I actually have thought that the scheduling that ADNP put together was theoretically masterful. I have no opinion about whether ADNP will be able to really upgrade H.C. football, or athletic PERFORMANCE in general. I certainly don't think ADNP brought this kind of skill with him. But, I bought into the "branding" value of the new schedules for H.C. because, in reality, the opponents are nowhere near "peer schools" of H.C. today. It creates the impression for the unwashed that H.C. belongs in those circles. Posters sure bit on it. However, what was witnessed at Yale on Saturday was a real psycho-downer for H.C.--because of the way they had to be paternalistically managed. The score didn't matter. ADNP may have screwed up the benefits of "rubbing elbows" with future opponents by waiting so long to execute Plan B--replacing HCTG. Now, the .500 schedule results in the early years ( '18-'19-'20 ) that I thought would be acceptable are really in doubt. And the scheduling of Navy and Syracuse in the same year is a mark of desperation. You really begin to believe H.C. has bad karma. I don't buy generally all of what you said. We got our asses kicked on Saturday; we did not get castrated. We are down, no doubt, and the team must play better. Gilmore has paid the price for the past play and Rock must get the kids ready to play the remainder of the schedule. If the team does not play better for the school, their teammates, their individual pride, then they are in teh wrong sport and at the wrong level. After the season, and during the coaching search, we look to the future. As to the future, we have not played the 18, 19 and 20 seasons yet. I'll reserve judgment until then. No reason for you to start throwing in the towel now. There is a reason why the score is unknown until the games have been played. We want Navy and Syracuse and any other FBS game we can get. By your logic, every football team with a bad record/season should not schedule games in the future out of fear of losing. Best thing for branding - is winning. We are not winning right now. We can again.
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Post by joe on Oct 16, 2017 18:51:46 GMT -5
I think Realism’s assumed sense of panic by NP is probably over the top, as his pessimism, but his general message has truth. The plan was to be a really solid program by now, one well prepared for the challenges ahead. This goes without saying, right?
What’s still amazing to me is that only a few weeks ago we pummeled the no. 9 team in the nation, and now we sit on the verge of a lost season, and amidst a mid-season coaching change. This is certainly a crisis situation but also a great opportunity for a total re-set.
By the way, with the way this season has gone, it would not surprise me if this coaching change leads to a renewed vigor for the players and we end up at 6-5 and win the league, then show up and play well in the FCS. Would not surprise me AT ALL. The PL stinks. Winning it would not be that big of a deal, really. No juggernauts to beat.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 16, 2017 19:12:13 GMT -5
When Pine was an assistant at Cal, the Bears were 29-22.
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Post by hchoops on Oct 16, 2017 19:16:35 GMT -5
When Pine was an assistant at Cal, the Bears were 29-22. almost As irrelevant as BBC’s Anderson’ stats
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 16, 2017 19:26:50 GMT -5
When Pine was an assistant at Cal, the Bears were 29-22. almost As irrelevant as BBC’s Anderson’ stats Yes, which is why I posted them.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Oct 16, 2017 20:42:35 GMT -5
When Pine was an assistant at Cal, the Bears were 29-22. almost As irrelevant as BBC’s Anderson’ stats Simply ignoring that his mentor couldn't pick a college football coach if one fell on his head is insanity.
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