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Post by rgs318 on Oct 21, 2017 14:42:11 GMT -5
When those same people are the ones making evaluations now, I think the comparison is an apt one.
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Post by joe on Oct 21, 2017 14:43:22 GMT -5
Reality check:
Program needs to be razed and rebuilt. Everything from the enthusiasm level to the coaching to the play calling to the choice and use of personnel is light years from where it needs to be. Even down to the ill-fitting Barney-purple uniforms and the matte helmets. Why do even our slimmest guys like like they’ve poured themselves into a yoga costume? From their size, appearance, and demeanor, Colgate looked like a D1 school today and we did not. We walked around with heads down, like we’d already given up on the season. Coaches were not into it either, and not surprisingly the players failed to respond. We need a complete mental, aesthetic, and philosophical dismantling and rebuilding, starting with the administration, then the coaches, then the players, than all the other aesthetics like uniforms, stadium issues, etc. Save the money on the Kalif bobble head and put it to better use.
I’m back to not watching. Can’t believe we drove all the way to Worcester for this. My son asked me to take him home in the 3rd quarter, but we’d have left anyway.
Here’s more reality: We’d not only lose, but get pounded by Assumption.
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Post by 6sader7 on Oct 21, 2017 14:53:45 GMT -5
At this point the talent level of the opposition is irrelevant.
We have equal if not more talent on our roster than Colgate.
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Post by td128 on Oct 21, 2017 14:55:48 GMT -5
I think this is an obvious statement -- at least for those who have played -- but football especially is a sport/game that must be played with a high level of emotion.
With it, great things can happen. Without it, you do not really stand a chance.
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Post by joe on Oct 21, 2017 14:56:32 GMT -5
At this point the talent level of the opposition is irrelevant. We have equal if not more talent on our roster than Colgate. For the sake of this program you better be right 67. Other teams just look bigger, stronger, faster, and leaner to me. On average, that is, and purely eyeballing it. Forget what the roster says. As a former player wouldn’t you agree? It seems very obvious to me.
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Post by 6sader7 on Oct 21, 2017 15:04:05 GMT -5
I don’t agree.
Our offensive and defensive lines are comprable in size and strength. They have always run the ball well between the tackles well and have alaways been extremely well coached.
We both have a few stand out skill players as well - I really think the biggest difference today is coaching and overall player management.
Lehigh / Lafayette typically get kids with better football pedigree due to their location, but that could potentially be solved with better recruiting.
Turning a program around often is a chicken and egg problem with regard to better players / better coaching / better program.
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Post by lou on Oct 21, 2017 15:09:17 GMT -5
At this point the talent level of the opposition is irrelevant. We have equal if not more talent on our roster than Colgate. Sorry, not even close. Did you see the game?
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Post by 6sader7 on Oct 21, 2017 15:12:09 GMT -5
At this point the talent level of the opposition is irrelevant. We have equal if not more talent on our roster than Colgate. Sorry, not even close. Did you see the game? Yes - same players who out played UNH and hung with UCOonn
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Post by bikeman on Oct 21, 2017 15:15:10 GMT -5
Abysmal coaching aside, some players should be brought aside and questioned for lack of effort. Quitting, or no football passion at all, is a heckuva way to earn your scholarship. We were focusing on certain players each play. Are they that poorly coached that they have no clue at all how to make a play? Argh!!
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Post by joe on Oct 21, 2017 15:15:34 GMT -5
67 you always make very cogent points and I personally respect your opinion, but I have to disagree with basically everything in your last post, starting with how we have always run well between the tackles. Maybe when old 67 was opening the holes we did, but not now.
In terms of UNH, I don’t know. Same for UConn. Both mysteries to me. I know we have endured injuries since then, but now I’m starting to think both opponents had off days.
The men on the team are great guys, but ever person and every team has a breaking point. This team finally lost one too many heartbreakers and has been broken. I applaud their effort through all of that. It must have been horrific, in as much as a “game” can be horrific. It’s not war or cancer, after all.
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Post by 6sader7 on Oct 21, 2017 15:19:17 GMT -5
67 you always make very cogent points and I personally respect your opinion, but I have to disagree with basically everything in your last post, starting with how we have always run well between the tackles. Maybe when old 67 was opening the holes we did, but not now. In terms of UNH, I don’t know. Same for UConn. Both mysteries to me. I know we have endured injuries since then, but now I’m starting to think both opponents had off days. The men on the team are great guys, but ever person and every team has a breaking point. This team finally lost one too many heartbreakers and has been broken. I applaud their effort through all of that. It must have been horrific. I stated that Colgate always runs well between the tackles and THEY are extremely well coached.
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Post by joe on Oct 21, 2017 15:20:56 GMT -5
67 you always make very cogent points and I personally respect your opinion, but I have to disagree with basically everything in your last post, starting with how we have always run well between the tackles. Maybe when old 67 was opening the holes we did, but not now. In terms of UNH, I don’t know. Same for UConn. Both mysteries to me. I know we have endured injuries since then, but now I’m starting to think both opponents had off days. The men on the team are great guys, but ever person and every team has a breaking point. This team finally lost one too many heartbreakers and has been broken. I applaud their effort through all of that. It must have been horrific. I stated that Colgate always runs well between the tackles and THEY are extremely well coached. Agreed then. Same story every year. They also have learned to pass from sideline to sideline since 2008, it would seem.
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Post by beerseach on Oct 21, 2017 15:40:08 GMT -5
The talent is there. This is clearly an emotionally beat down team for the second year in a row. Pride does come to mind of course, it has to, but I watch other teams and they remain enthusiastic. There is just a negative aura/energy about the program that was allowed to continue for most of a second season in a row. I don't care what anyone says, that takes a toll on you regardless of who you are...
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Post by hc87 on Oct 21, 2017 16:00:23 GMT -5
I think we have decent talent, but I'm pretty certain Colgate had superior talent overall.
We lack the playmakers on both sides of the ball that they have.... both their lines were better than ours too.
I think both lines can be coached up moving forward (next year and beyond) but we have to up our recruiting efforts in finding better athletes at a variety of positions.
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Post by crusader12 on Oct 21, 2017 16:08:04 GMT -5
I think today's game demonstrates that we need more of a recruiter mastermind than a football mastermind as the next head coach. Both would be ideal but ADNP needs to look at a coach that can bring in talent. Today and last week were just horrible showings.
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Post by 6sader7 on Oct 21, 2017 16:08:26 GMT -5
Put simply - Colgate doesn't have 40 points better talent than Holy Cross and that's the loss we're staring at today.
We can all speculate as to the degrees better of talent etc all we want - But this HC team has plenty enough talent to beat Colgate.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 21, 2017 16:19:05 GMT -5
Eye-ball test to me (and playing devil's advocate/contrarian) but outside of 2 very good LBs and maybe a couple on the DL, we don't have impact players on defense. (fully knowing we are banged up in the secondary...which sort of leads to my argument that our overall talent doesn't match Colgate's i.e. lack of depth)
Offensively our RBs are OK..but not in the class of Holland or Edmonds etc....our wide-outs as a group this year have been poor imo. We have no one close to some of the WRs Colgate had today. Pujals can be an impact player but he has been very poorly utilized this year imo.
Are they 38 points better talent-wise? No, but they were definitely the better team talent-wise...throw in our coaching debacle and your final is Colgate 45 HC 7.
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Post by HC92 on Oct 21, 2017 16:19:30 GMT -5
The team has definitely given up. No sense watching anymore. Sad, but true. We lost by a combined 80-7 the last two weeks and it could have been much worse but for the benevolence of the Yale coach.
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Post by realism on Oct 21, 2017 16:28:01 GMT -5
Eye-ball test to me (and playing devil's advocate/contrarian) but outside of 2 very good LBs and maybe a couple on the DL, we don't have impact players on defense. (fully knowing we are banged up in the secondary...which sort of leads to my argument that our overall talent doesn't match Colgate's i.e. lack of depth) Offensively our RBs are OK..but not in the class of Holland or Edmonds etc....our wide-outs as a group this year have been poor imo. We have no one close to some of the WRs Colgate had today. Pujals can be an impact player but he has been very poorly utilized this year imo. Are they 38 points better talent-wise? No, but they were definitely the better team talent-wise...throw in our coaching debacle and your final is Colgate 45 HC 7. I'd add to your list how comparatively young this Colgate team is and will be. And how laden with Srs. and "5 yrs" H.C's 2-deep is. A lot of very serious intent and energy went into this H.C team--HCTG knew he had to put experience on the field if he wanted to keep his job. Consequently, the new coach is inheriting a cupboard that's bare as far as "comparative" playing experience goes. Will 'gate be 38 points better talent-wise next year ? Dunno. But, I'll bet dollars to donuts they'll be better.
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Post by joe on Oct 21, 2017 16:36:47 GMT -5
Not sure if their wide receivers were better athletically, but I will tell you they got open more. I will say again Colgate just appeared “bigger” - taller, stronger, faster, leaner, more D1ish.
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Post by ncaam on Oct 21, 2017 16:50:26 GMT -5
There is a lot of blame to go around a the coaching and administration level. But This is the first time since I was a freshman in 2004 that I can say I’m embarrassed by the lack of pride and effort displayed by our players in the 2nd half of that game. Really dissapointing to see. 67, do you see a problem with the offensive line not putting out? I mean how do you go from the way the start of the year to went to now it’s just a jailbreak to the quarterback. I’m wondering if there’s some jealousy animosity whatever that developed during the year maybe where the coaches blamed the line rather than the quarterback for the problems and the line didn’t like it. Could that possibly be the case?
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Post by hcpride on Oct 21, 2017 17:07:32 GMT -5
Eye-ball test to me (and playing devil's advocate/contrarian) but outside of 2 very good LBs and maybe a couple on the DL, we don't have impact players on defense. (fully knowing we are banged up in the secondary...which sort of leads to my argument that our overall talent doesn't match Colgate's i.e. lack of depth) Offensively our RBs are OK..but not in the class of Holland or Edmonds etc....our wide-outs as a group this year have been poor imo. We have no one close to some of the WRs Colgate had today. Pujals can be an impact player but he has been very poorly utilized this year imo. Are they 38 points better talent-wise? No, but they were definitely the better team talent-wise...throw in our coaching debacle and your final is Colgate 45 HC 7. I'd add to your list how comparatively young this Colgate team is and will be. And how laden with Srs. and "5 yrs" H.C's 2-deep is. A lot of very serious intent and energy went into this H.C team--HCTG knew he had to put experience on the field if he wanted to keep his job. Consequently, the new coach is inheriting a cupboard that's bare as far as "comparative" playing experience goes. Will 'gate be 38 points better talent-wise next year ? Dunno. But, I'll bet dollars to donuts they'll be better. Gotta agree. Our lack of young talent just jumps off the page when you look at our games. Heck even the game notes: www.goholycross.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=33100&ATCLID=211673285 make that crystal clear. Next year could be another and more complete disaster - we will certainly lose a great deal of the talent we do have and the experience we do have to graduation. We are not a couple of tweaks from excellence on the gridiron. One would have to be gulping the purple koolaid at this point to think so. I wish I was expert enough in the recruiting game to figure out what went particularly wrong the last two years (eyeballs and general knowledge tell me something did not go so well) or so and what will happen during the upcoming recruiting cycle. I'm thinking it is tough to recruit during 'interim coach ' periods and kids tend (in gross and macro terms) towards winning programs.
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Post by hccape on Oct 21, 2017 17:16:00 GMT -5
ADNP, has the right idea. Football is a huge investment and right now it is drowning. This is not a new problem but a solution has got to happen quickly. He is going to have to find a young coach that is going to use HC as a stepping stone, but here for 5 years. My personal opinion is that it's the coaching and recruiting. A good program should make enough money to support other sports at the school, this is becoming a very large financial liability. HC has the facilities now and the education that it should be very attractive with a full scholarship. Hell back in the day (80's) if you got a full boot to HC and you lived in the Northeast it was a no brainer.
I have watched all the games and it is a program issue and it has to be uprooted and replanted. At the end of the day these are young men that need to be lead, that is not happening. I will continue to support this team by watching because as a former collegiate football player that means something, you dont quit as a team member or a fan. The players give up most of their summers to play this game you know they just hate losing. Let's pray that this administration finds a suitable coach that can lead a winning program.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 21, 2017 17:20:23 GMT -5
They didn't have to all be "open" because I saw multiple times, when I was still at the game, when our defenders were right there (one, a very dubious interference call). Here's the thing, 'gate had wide receiver Ives who is 6'5" and he ended up with 3 catches for 92 yards and 1 TD. His longest was 59 yards. We had sub 6' defenders on him who were right there. Their QB threw high and on at least one of those catches, Ives jumped way up and caught the ball one-handed for a circus catch.
Our 5th year QB had 4 turnovers - a fumble and 3 interceptions. I didn't see the last one and one of them happened as he was hit and his pass as a result was about a 5 yard blooper right into the 'gate defenders hands for a pick 6. The guy who hit him looped around and had a clear shot on Peter. Whose fault? Our O-line or just a well planned, well executed defensive play? I'll leave it to you experts.
BTW, glad 67 clarified about which team had the great running team as I too thought he was claiming Holy Cross. I think we last had a great running team with Gil Fenerty.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 21, 2017 17:24:37 GMT -5
BTW, well before the game, I saw a number of kids and parents with tags on with the words "RECRUIT" and they appeared to be built like football players though another poster said he saw Carmody with basketball recruits. Great game for either group to have watched.
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