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Post by spenser on Oct 22, 2017 18:57:52 GMT -5
I agree with HC92 to a great extent. What happened to the team that played UConn an UNH. It vaporized. Saturday was a disgrace. 21/44 is ridiculous. And those numbers support what he originally said. And I’ve been sitting in that stadium since I was a little kid in the early 60’s.
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Post by HC92 on Oct 22, 2017 19:08:27 GMT -5
We have lost 4 of our last 12 games by at least 32 points. Can't be too many other D-1 teams who can say that. The fact that so many of us who have followed HC football closely for 30+ years are now willing to entertain the notion that we could be okay with dropping the program in the next decade if we don't make significant improvements should tell NP everything he needs to know.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 22, 2017 19:56:43 GMT -5
Here's my prediction: Nate Pine will be long gone from Holy Cross before we give up Crusader (er, Holy Cross) football.
I'm very confident he already knows this and, more importantly, so does Fr. Boroughs. As I've said repeatedly, it is my belief based on multiple public and private comments by Fr. Boroughs since he became president that he believes that athletics is a way to expand the Holy Cross brand as well as spread the geographic diversity of the student body. However, the man is smart enough to not throw money at problems that won't or can't be solved. A losing football team does not expand the brand. After 5 years getting scholarships back, it is too early to send up the white flag especially with the LAC just coming on line and FBS teams finally on the schedule (a revenue source as well as a brand expander). His patience is probably not unlimited to get the program turned around but it will have to be turned around soon. It is probably do or die for football based on the success of the next coach. Failure will probably mean the end of Holy Cross football because it is a means to an end, not an end in itself.
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Post by inhocsigno on Oct 22, 2017 21:04:56 GMT -5
Weak quitters - directed at many posters. All this talk about dropping the program is absurd. Football belongs at HC as much as any other sport, and arguably more so based on tradition (basketball excepted). If the next coach cannot do it, fire him and try another. All the talk about money is absurd. Most D1 schools lose money on football. It is a marketing, community engagement, student involvement, etc. expense. If it was a straight business decision there would be no college football outside of the P5.
If we won more this year, these discussions would not be happening and everyone would be cheering for their crusaders. Just a bunch a pussy rats jumping ship during a tough time. I would hate to be in a foxhole with you many of you guys.
The team can get better and can compete at this level - FCS. Need a change of direction, and some help from admissions. The school needs to sto acting like we're the greatest academic institution of all time. We need to give some leeway to the coaches, like other schools in the league and in FCS.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 22, 2017 21:16:07 GMT -5
My argument, if there is one....is that Holy Cross might be better served dropping football, leaving the PL and joining the BE or A-10 in hoop and Olympic sports and the Hockey East.
Obviously much, much easier said than done.
I'd rather not drop football but is that scenario better for the HC brand/identity?
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Post by inhocsigno on Oct 22, 2017 21:23:07 GMT -5
My argument, if there is one....is that Holy Cross might be better served dropping football, leaving the PL and joining the BE or A-10 in hoop and the Hockey East. Obviously much, much easier said than done. I'd rather nvot drop football but is that scenario better for the HC brand/identity? With all due respect, your argument is long noted. Your negativity vs football, or at least Gilmore, is also well & long noted. I wonder if this season is your dream scenario to advance your agenda. Honestly, you were right on Gilmore. However, and please understand that I root for and like HC hockey; literally no one outside of a few geographic areas and all of Tim Horton land care about hockey. Unless we are in the bean pot, and playing for or winning national championships, which will not happen, hockey does very little for the school. Basketball, football and baseball could do more for US national recognition, probably in that order.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 22, 2017 21:34:28 GMT -5
I would argue that there aren't many bigger HC football supporters alive today than myself....I take no pleasure in their misfortune, my Dad played a little in the 40s, uncle in the 50s, brother was a walk-on in the 80s, work mentors, friends at HC who played etc etc...my ties run long and very deep.
I want HC to have football...but at the end of the day, at what cost? If it's just to have a so-so program in the PL, can't compete with the better Ivies and are completely over-matched in our FBS games...what are we doing basically?
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Post by inhocsigno on Oct 22, 2017 21:49:47 GMT -5
I don't question your concern or dedication to HC. I question your, and many other posters' ability to discern the unique context of HC football now. Comparing to the 40's - 70's is useless. Many reasons, but most relevant is geographic. Comparing to 80's is actually helpful. Ask anyone involved with the program if they had to deal with Ann McDermott-level admissions problems and AI back then.
For (not) better, but worse, HC is a regional school that needs to be able to attract talent nationally in order to compete in sports. NE football does not cut it. As bad as the Colonial decision by Brooks was, no one has done more damage to sports than McDermott and the admissions department (based on instructions from above). Instead of arguing against continuation, I would submit you argue for improvement and support.
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Post by HC92 on Oct 22, 2017 22:07:12 GMT -5
Every single person who posts here regularly (besides bison137) wants HC football to succeed. But, at some point, if we are where we are a decade from now, you'd have to at least seriously consider whether the benefits (tangible, intangible or otherwise) outweigh the costs of maintaining a mediocre PL football program (if that's what we still are a decade from now which we all hope we are not).
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Post by hc87 on Oct 22, 2017 22:09:22 GMT -5
As for geographical diversity...the 1980s teams had many players outside of the Northeast....multiple players from the states of Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, Texas, Virginia, California etc are just guys from the top of my head that I know personally...it's a facade that we didn't recruit nationally then
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Post by inhocsigno on Oct 22, 2017 22:25:21 GMT -5
As for geographical diversity...the 1980s teams had many players outside of the Northeast....multiple players from the states of Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, Texas, Virginia, California etc are just guys from the top of my head that I know personally...it's a facade that we didn't recruit nationally then Reading comp. look again. Pre 80's was geographic. 80's was admissions, coaching and success breeding success. I believe that I said 80's team and coaches did not have to deal with the admissions issues of the 90's through today. However, I defer to Knob Creek on weekends after my kids are sleeping, so I could be wrong. Back then, the school cared about FB more and sought to win.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 22, 2017 22:55:03 GMT -5
As for geographical diversity...the 1980s teams had many players outside of the Northeast....multiple players from the states of Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, Texas, Virginia, California etc are just guys from the top of my head that I know personally...it's a facade that we didn't recruit nationally Back then, the school cared about FB more and sought to win. What I find most troubling is that, as a school, we've almost basically lost at least a generation of fans of HC football. If you were a senior at Holy Cross in 1991 (last really good team with all due respect to the 2009 squad, last team that had scholarships etc) you'd be pushing 50 now. If you go to a game at Fitton these days, you're hard pressed to find many people in the crowd in their 20s, 30s or even 40s. Point being...it's going to be difficult to reboot a solid following for HC football when most haven't cared for about 30 years.
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Post by inhocsigno on Oct 22, 2017 23:49:52 GMT -5
Honestly, I cannot disagree re crowds and excitement, because we just don't know. We have not won consistently in a long time to gauge crowds, etc. however, while many on here harken to the crowds and espirit of the old days, I think there is little in the way of that across all sports. It is not like Hart was ever picked for BB unless it was a make or break game. A lot of kids just don't have school spirit now. They go to HC for academic reasons and they root for whoever they grew up watching on Saturdays. The only way to change the culture is to win consistently. We cannot do that if the sports team are held to same academic admissions requirements as regular students and ivies (for recruiting purposes).
Simply, HC does not have the name recognition it should nationally. The fastest way to change that is through sports success, namely BB tourney and FBS football opponents. PERIOD. Until that happens, all this talk is pretty much a bunch of old guys bitching about better times. We need to play the games scheduled and we need to play them well. If the kids are not reAdy to play BC, Cuse, etc. then they should not be playing the game. Next man up.
P.S. I do note you overlooked a really good (relatively) 2000 team.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 23, 2017 3:45:21 GMT -5
Inhoc:
I will assume that I am one of the ones you have identified as a "weak quitter" since you posted right after mine. A totally unfair criticism.
I don't know how long you have been following Holy Cross football (or a player) but many posters know that I bleed purple and have been a follower of Holy Cross football for decades and support the team not only with my presence at almost every home game and many away games but also have supported the team financially as a charter member of the Gridiron Club. I don't want Holy Cross to give up football, I am suggesting that based on my observations that if the College does not turn this around to being successful, that it will close down the program and I've stated the reasons why. I am also suggesting that Holy Cross will not loosen its emphasis on academics (i.e. stay in the PL) but if you look back at my posts you will note that I have been one that would like to see Ann McDermott join the ranks of the retired.
As a former Class Chair for many years and current Class Correspondent, I am well aware of the importance of Holy Cross football and the relationship with money: "Most D1 schools lose money on football. It is a marketing, community engagement, student involvement, etc. expense."
Get off your high horse.
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Post by hc89 on Oct 23, 2017 6:55:41 GMT -5
What I find most troubling is that, as a school, we've almost basically lost at least a generation of fans of HC football. If you were a senior at Holy Cross in 1991 (last really good team with all due respect to the 2009 squad, last team that had scholarships etc) you'd be pushing 50 now. If you go to a game at Fitton these days, you're hard pressed to find many people in the crowd in their 20s, 30s or even 40s. Point being...it's going to be difficult to reboot a solid following for HC football when most haven't cared for about 30 years. I think this is an extremely important point. We desperately need more young alumni and young members of the Greater Worcester community who are willing to engage and provide support for HC Athletics- and not just former athletes! We probably have a higher percentage of alumni (especially younger alumni) who could tell you the name of the starting QB for Notre Dame than the name of HC's starting QB in any given year.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 23, 2017 9:17:02 GMT -5
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Post by inhocsigno on Oct 23, 2017 10:02:42 GMT -5
Inhoc: I will assume that I am one of the ones you have identified as a "weak quitter" since you posted right after mine. A totally unfair criticism. I don't know how long you have been following Holy Cross football (or a player) but many posters know that I bleed purple and have been a follower of Holy Cross football for decades and support the team not only with my presence at almost every home game and many away games but also have supported the team financially as a charter member of the Gridiron Club. I don't want Holy Cross to give up football, I am suggesting that based on my observations that if the College does not turn this around to being successful, that it will close down the program and I've stated the reasons why. I am also suggesting that Holy Cross will not loosen its emphasis on academics (i.e. stay in the PL) but if you look back at my posts you will note that I have been one that would like to see Ann McDermott join the ranks of the retired. As a former Class Chair for many years and current Class Correspondent, I am well aware of the importance of Holy Cross football and the relationship with money: "Most D1 schools lose money on football. It is a marketing, community engagement, student involvement, etc. expense." Get off your high horse. It was not directed at any individual, but collectively at the posters who are rah rah one week, and ready to blow it up the next. I don't believe I was speaking from an elevated position (or high horse as you put it - maybe a Shetland Pony). However, listing you CV, albeit impressive, would be more akin to the high horse you reference. We started the season much better than anyone expected. I don't believe anybody believed we would have looked that good in the beginning of the season, especially on defense. I believe that created an inflated sense of the team. Things have gone downhill since Dartmouth loss (which should have been a win against a solid, really well coached team). If we were sitting right now, with only losses to UConn, Yale and Colgate (teams that were demonstratively better on the field), would these discussions be occurring. I think that many people on here start jumping ship as soon as adversity hits the program. The same people applauding the program one week are questioning the existence the next, i.e. jumping ship. I find that to be an exceptionally weak and timid manner to show support. We will now have a new coach and hopefully, he will get done what TG did not. If that does not work, you try someone else. I can guarantee one thing, all this talk of getting rid of the program in the future is not going to help. If you really supported the program, you would know that such talk can very negative repercussions on recruiting and team morale - assuming that recruits and players read this board. We have some talent on the field. My honest assessment is that we are lacking depth to make up for the injuries and lacking leadership/heart right now. Both of these things are correctable through coaching, recruiting and admissions.
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Post by hc811215 on Oct 23, 2017 10:55:45 GMT -5
With the Luth Athletic Complex barely open after such a huge investment, I think there is virtually no chance that we give up football or the Patriot League anytime soon. We went to full football scholarships to preserve the Patriot League and prevent Fordham's threatened departure. I also think there is great value in having fall Saturday afternoons playing Ivies and other PL schools like Colgate. Even a smattering of BCS games would be fun (who knew UConn would be such a close game?). All we need to improve the program is to do well within the PL. PL and Ivy football is fun to watch, especially if your team is winning. As he watched this season unravel, I suspect ADNP started kicking himself for extending CTG and not letting him go after the Fordham debacle last season. We have had a lot of losing seasons in a row so the crowds are small and the student body is not supportive. A new coach, provided he achieves some success, could bring back fans quickly. Student perceptions are based on their 4 year experience and can change quickly. I graduated in 1981 and my perception of HC was that we were a basketball school. We were not a great football school. We went to football games, but not in the numbers, or with the enthusiasm, we went to basketball games. My younger brother graduated in 1988. During his tenure, football was the big sport on campus among casual fans because of the tremendous success we were having. I would bet attendance between the fall of 84 and the fall of 87 was double that from 77 to 80. not coincidentally, our combined record from 77-80 was 17-27 and our combined record from 84-87 was 33-9-1. Why do I bring up this history? Only to support the proposition that things can change, including fan base and public perception, much faster than we think. It doesn't take long to bring fans back when you start winning and there is a buzz about a program.
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Post by nhteamer on Oct 23, 2017 12:03:54 GMT -5
WIN
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 23, 2017 12:11:22 GMT -5
I sincerely hope you are right hc81.
And I totally support the theory that winning cures almost all ills.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 23, 2017 12:24:00 GMT -5
Winning will help...but I don't think 6-5, 7-4 seasons (which seemed to be our ceiling save for the outlier year of 2009) in the PL, while losing 3 out of every 4 years or so to Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, being completely overwhelmed by BC, Cuse, Navy will really move the needle any (if at all).
I really don't know what the answer is at the moment...I suppose just time.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 23, 2017 12:45:00 GMT -5
Time...and a new coaching staff led by a head coach who can see how HC in some ways has handcuffed itself and come only if that changes.
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Post by realism on Oct 23, 2017 13:07:09 GMT -5
Winning will help...but I don't think 6-5, 7-4 seasons (which seemed to be our ceiling save for the outlier year of 2009) in the PL, while losing 3 out of every 4 years or so to Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, being completely overwhelmed by BC, Cuse, Navy will really move the needle any (if at all). I respect your devotion to your alma mater, hc87. I'm speculating here......but I think TPTB would be thrilled with 6-5, 7-4 performance, certainly over the next 2 years; probably for the life expectancy of the new coach. And I don't think the coach will have winning seasons in the next 2 years. Exhibit A: The ADNP SCHEDULES, ( which I think in and of themselves are fantastic.) However, things have changed since ADNP originally locked these in. To be more specific, change hasn't and won't likely come fast enough. This is on ADNP. The impact of the change in the competitive level of the opponents in ADNP's schedules should not be under-estimated. Competitive preparedness is now being sought in a very shortened time frame. It's simply conjecture on my part.....But, I ask you.... what miracles between the 2016 and 2019 seasons are happening to justify being dissatisfied with 6-5/7-4 in 2019 ?: 1. 2016 4-7 www.goholycross.com/SportSelect.dbml?SPSID=917327&SPID=157213&DB_OEM_ID=33100&Q_SEASON=20162. 2019 ?-? www.goholycross.com/SportSelect.dbml?SPSID=917327&SPID=157213&DB_OEM_ID=33100&Q_SEASON=2019
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Post by WCHC Sports on Oct 23, 2017 13:40:18 GMT -5
inhocsigno, let me ask you this, because you are referencing fans jumping ship so quickly after being "Rah rah rah" only a few weeks before. Do you really think it's just the span of 3-4 games that have fans considering (not protesting with pitchforks and torches) what the future of football at HC should be? Can you acknowledge that, like '87 said, they REALLY want HC to win, and can get jacked up for those great performances, but are mindful of the 5... 10... 15... 20 year history of HC football floundering?
I can appreciate that you played, and that there were scores of committed individuals during successful years and unsuccessful years-- however one might categorize "success." I can also appreciate that the challenges of the teams of the 40s, 50s, and 60s, are different from the 90s, 00s, and 10s.
What I have not lost sight of is the lack of appreciable progress at best, or continued degradation of the program at worst, over the last ten years. If I can speak for the viewpoint, I think THAT is where you are seeing the frustration. Not that folks want to abandon ship after two losses. The fact that it's two boneheaded losses in a string of years of boneheaded or disappointing losses.
Coaching change is an important step. I do think that the next three seasons or so will be what HC92 says are crucial to determining if it makes sense to keep trying this or not. You say HC football expands the brand. If we are a PL doormat for 40 years, or losing those cool FBS-scheduled games by 60 points, what brand are we expanding?
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Post by cruskater31 on Oct 23, 2017 18:25:17 GMT -5
If dropping football is no longer a radical idea, how about going FBS Independent playing a mix of CAA and PL teams as well as lower ACC and American teams. After 2-3 years of FBS recruits transition to one of the above conferences 😁😂
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