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Post by nycrusader2010 on Oct 23, 2017 19:01:43 GMT -5
My argument, if there is one....is that Holy Cross might be better served dropping football, leaving the PL and joining the BE or A-10 in hoop and Olympic sports and the Hockey East. Obviously much, much easier said than done. I'd rather not drop football but is that scenario better for the HC brand/identity? Why do people think there is some correlation between us potentially dropping football and also getting into the BE, A-10 or Hockey East? These scenarios are mutually exclusive.
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Post by joe on Oct 23, 2017 19:14:42 GMT -5
If dropping football is no longer a radical idea, how about going FBS Independent playing a mix of CAA and PL teams as well as lower ACC and American teams. After 2-3 years of FBS recruits transition to one of the above conferences šš Weāve been spitballing this idea recently on this board. I for one think it derserves a hard look. It would free us from redshirting restrictions, academic index, and PL scholarship limits. Downside is the impact on recruiting from the loss of an auto-bid to the FCS, and potential scheduling challenges. As far as staying in a league, as long as the PL will not face reality and bend to the times I say we get out. Would be nice to find 5 or 6 other like-minded schools to form a new league, even a few disgruntled PL teams. Again, Fordham has been like-minded. Maybe a couple CAA teams who havenāt been at the top for a while, and a couple others and itās at least a start.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Oct 23, 2017 19:33:20 GMT -5
If dropping football is no longer a radical idea, how about going FBS Independent playing a mix of CAA and PL teams as well as lower ACC and American teams. After 2-3 years of FBS recruits transition to one of the above conferences šš Weāve been spitballing this idea recently on this board. I for one think it derserves a hard look. It would free us from redshirting restrictions, academic index, and PL scholarship limits. Downside is the impact on recruiting from the loss of an auto-bid to the FCS, and potential scheduling challenges. As far as staying in a league, as long as the PL will not face reality and bend to the times I say we get out. Would be nice to find 5 or 6 other like-minded schools to form a new league, even a few disgruntled PL teams. Again, Fordham has been like-minded. Maybe a couple CAA teams who havenāt been at the top for a while, and a couple others and itās at least a start. I think you mean FCS independent, not FBS. Sorry, Holy Cross is not Liberty - and we would be the smallest FBS school in the country by enrollment. Regarding becoming an FCS independent, no one has really done that successfully since William & Mary in the early 1990's. The only schools that have been independent at our level are schools transitioning up to FBS like Florida Atlantic, Charlotte and South Alabama OR foundering HBCU like Morris Brown and Savannah State. Putting together a schedule might not be so bad for us because we could fill up 4 out of 11 slots with the Ivy League, 1-2 FBS games, Maine (always looking for people to come up to Orono), Fordham, Colgate and then you're only looking to fill 3-4 more between the PL, Pioneer, NEC and CAA. And, hey, if we had to, we could schedule Assumption or New Haven. One thing to note, according to current conference bylaws, there must be at least five full-time members playing football for the Patriot League to sponsor the sport. So if we left, we would effectively blow up Patriot League Football unless the league added a new full-time member. So they would have to bring in someone like Sacred Heart, Bryant or Monmouth.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 23, 2017 19:34:05 GMT -5
My argument, if there is one....is that Holy Cross might be better served dropping football, leaving the PL and joining the BE or A-10 in hoop and Olympic sports and the Hockey East. Obviously much, much easier said than done. I'd rather not drop football but is that scenario better for the HC brand/identity? Why do people think there is some correlation between us potentially dropping football and also getting into the BE, A-10 or Hockey East? These scenarios are mutually exclusive. $$$$ basically
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Oct 23, 2017 19:38:31 GMT -5
Why do people think there is some correlation between us potentially dropping football and also getting into the BE, A-10 or Hockey East? These scenarios are mutually exclusive. $$$$ basically In theory, it makes sense. More resources to dump into basketball and hockey that could be pooled from football. But let's say we dropped football tomorrow. Would the presidents of schools in the BE/A10/HE suddenly be on the phones saying, "Oh my god, Holy Cross dropped football last night. Just think of how much money they will be saving in athletics. Their basketball and hockey teams are about to become a bull in a china shop. We have to get them in now!"?? In fact, can anyone name a time a school dropped football and all of a sudden higher-level basketball conferences immediately started foaming at the mouth to admit that school?
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Post by joe on Oct 23, 2017 19:40:55 GMT -5
NY - yes I meant FCS independent. Anywhere but the PL for football. Itās a failed experiment.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 23, 2017 19:45:32 GMT -5
In theory, it makes sense. More resources to dump into basketball and hockey that could be pooled from football. But let's say we dropped football tomorrow. Would the presidents of schools in the BE/A10/HE suddenly be on the phones saying, "Oh my god, Holy Cross dropped football last night. Just think of how much money they will be saving in athletics. Their basketball and hockey teams are about to become a bull in a china shop. We have to get them in now!"?? In fact, can anyone name a time a school dropped football and all of a sudden higher-level basketball conferences immediately started foaming at the mouth to admit that school? Wichita St maybe....but I agree, as I stated initially, more of a "hypothetical what if" than based in reality
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Post by hcpride on Oct 23, 2017 19:47:37 GMT -5
NY - yes I meant FCS independent. Anywhere but the PL for football. Itās a failed experiment. No argument about the failed Patriot Football experiment from anyone here. Only problem is finding an FCS conference for football who would want us that we would also want. Don't think there is one. CAA is full (and Monmouth is in the wings) and in NEC we lose the 'branding' gambit. Pioneer is too distant. Last option is FCS independent...but that is impossible.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 23, 2017 20:18:14 GMT -5
We're in the Patriot League for the foreseeable future.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Oct 23, 2017 20:37:27 GMT -5
In theory, it makes sense. More resources to dump into basketball and hockey that could be pooled from football. But let's say we dropped football tomorrow. Would the presidents of schools in the BE/A10/HE suddenly be on the phones saying, "Oh my god, Holy Cross dropped football last night. Just think of how much money they will be saving in athletics. Their basketball and hockey teams are about to become a bull in a china shop. We have to get them in now!"?? In fact, can anyone name a time a school dropped football and all of a sudden higher-level basketball conferences immediately started foaming at the mouth to admit that school? Wichita St maybe....but I agree, as I stated initially, more of a "hypothetical what if" than based in reality Wichita State was actually playing football in the DI-A Missouri Valley conference before it stopped sponsoring football in the mid-80s. I believe New Mexico, Louisville and Tulsa were in this football conference among others. In fact, Wichita is/was recently mulling bringing football BACK partially because they think it might be the chip needed to get them into a better hoops conference (AAC).
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Post by crusader1970 on Oct 23, 2017 21:15:46 GMT -5
In theory, it makes sense. More resources to dump into basketball and hockey that could be pooled from football. But let's say we dropped football tomorrow. Would the presidents of schools in the BE/A10/HE suddenly be on the phones saying, "Oh my god, Holy Cross dropped football last night. Just think of how much money they will be saving in athletics. Their basketball and hockey teams are about to become a bull in a china shop. We have to get them in now!"?? In fact, can anyone name a time a school dropped football and all of a sudden higher-level basketball conferences immediately started foaming at the mouth to admit that school? Hofstra is a.great example of a school that, despite putting several players in the NFL, decided to drop football. The feeling was at the time that they would use those funds to launch their basketball and lacrosse programs into national prominence. Never happened. They are stuck in the competitive but faceless CAA conference for hoops and they draw flies into a 5500 seat arena for their games. I know. I have had season tickets for over 10 years. Ironically their last sellout was against Holy Cross in the ESPN Bracketbuster game in 2007.
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Post by purplehaze on Oct 23, 2017 21:38:35 GMT -5
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Post by hc87 on Oct 23, 2017 22:35:54 GMT -5
In actuality, going FBS independent in football makes more sense for HC than going FCS Independent. Crazy talk I know, but we basically have FBS-level facilities now (kinda, sorta) with the Luth and a 23,500 seat Fitton etc. Could play fellow FBS Eastern Indy's UMass and Army, BC would probably play us annually, same with UConn, cobble together a few CAA schools on the schedule, Harvard and Yale may still play us as a low-tier FBS program, Colgate might still play us, a NEC school every year....not saying it would be easy to schedule but it could be done. Problem being, you can't jump up to FBS without joining a league these days... maybe we could get an exemption. Pie-in-the-sky talk I know....but is it really that much more pie-in-the-sky than thinking our football program is going to dramatically turn around as a member of the Patriot League?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 23, 2017 22:42:08 GMT -5
It's not pie-in-the-sky, it's quite simply insane. Why not delete it before any mental health professionals see it and start the commitment process?
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Oct 23, 2017 22:45:28 GMT -5
Wichita St maybe....but I agree, as I stated initially, more of a "hypothetical what if" than based in reality Wichita State was actually playing football in the DI-A Missouri Valley conference before it stopped sponsoring football in the mid-80s. I believe New Mexico, Louisville and Tulsa were in this football conference among others. In fact, Wichita is/was recently mulling bringing football BACK partially because they think it might be the chip needed to get them into a better hoops conference (AAC). Football wasn't needed for Wichita St. as became a member of the AAC months ago.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 23, 2017 22:57:21 GMT -5
It's not pie-in-the-sky, it's quite simply insane. Why not delete it before any mental health professionals see it and start the commitment process? Really? Is playing a lot of longtime HC rivals (BC, UMass, Army, UConn, as well as some Ivies and CAA's)....essentially the football schedules we played throughout the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s....that insane compared to what we've been doing (very poorly overall) for the last 30 years? As I said, admittedly a reach, with a bunch of issues to be dealt with....but it makes a hell of a lot more sense in getting HC's brand out there football-wise than playing before crowds of 3K in a league hardly anyone outside of die-hard fans of the PL know about.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Oct 23, 2017 22:58:41 GMT -5
Wichita State was actually playing football in the DI-A Missouri Valley conference before it stopped sponsoring football in the mid-80s. I believe New Mexico, Louisville and Tulsa were in this football conference among others. In fact, Wichita is/was recently mulling bringing football BACK partially because they think it might be the chip needed to get them into a better hoops conference (AAC). Football wasn't needed for Wichita St. as became a member of the AAC months ago. Wow - total malfunction of the brain on my part. Forgot that they'd already signed the dotted line.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Oct 23, 2017 23:01:16 GMT -5
There is a better chance of ADNP signing Brian Rock to a ten-year extension tonight than Holy Cross football ever considering a move to FBS.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Oct 23, 2017 23:10:56 GMT -5
Get off the hippie lettuce 87.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 23, 2017 23:15:10 GMT -5
Again, I agree...but as a hypothetical argument...you can't say that such a move doesn't have some merit. The bang for our buck at the FCS-level is pretty low today (particularly in the Northeast).
I'm saying that we could be "unique" in the FBS world....play at that level but obviously not at an Alabama or even a BC level. Play 5 or 6 FBS schools a year (BC, Army, UMass, UConn annually, sprinkle in a couple lower level FBS schools), 2 or 3 Ivies, 2 or 3 CAA schools etc.
If we are going to spend so much $$$ to beat Bucknell and Lafayette, why not spend a little more to play BC and UMass annually?
It probably won't happen...but you can't say that that probably doesn't make more sense in giving HC more visibility via football..... which is basically what we hear HC has in store given the building of Luth, restoring scholarships, caring enough about football to fire a coach mid-season etc
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Post by deep Purple on Oct 23, 2017 23:39:26 GMT -5
JMO - I donāt think what hc87 is saying is all that far fetched an idea, but theyād never do it.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 24, 2017 0:12:32 GMT -5
It won't happen for a variety of reasons (NCAA regulations etc) but it's the type of idea athletically that we haven't entertained since the late 70s/ early 1980s (no to the Big East, drop football scholarships, half-baked attempts to go ECAC or Hockey East etc) that has left the school squandering much of its athletic and academic reputation over the last 30+ years....bold ideas are desperately needed.
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Post by joe on Oct 24, 2017 5:24:40 GMT -5
hc87 - this is the kind of outside of the box thinkiing we need. I donāt think being a BCS independent is on the table but letās look at all options. Issue I think is that to be FBS you have to demonstrate a certain number of fans per home game, otherwise arenāt you on the hook in some way?
Point 87 is making is that Pine et al should be, if they arenāt already, focused both on finding a coach and re-evaluating our spot in the PL.
Itās a hump of a conference and we need to get out for football. Stop with the āforeseeable futureā crap. No. Get out now while the program is being leveled. New facilities, new coaches, new players, new attitude, new conference. Fresh start. Time to walk away from this 30 year flog called the Patriot League. It was a good idea in theory but a dumpster fire in reality. HC does not need some piss ant league to keep up its academic reputation. Have some courage. And while youāre at it, save the Crusader.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 24, 2017 6:02:54 GMT -5
In theory, it makes sense. More resources to dump into basketball and hockey that could be pooled from football. But let's say we dropped football tomorrow. Would the presidents of schools in the BE/A10/HE suddenly be on the phones saying, "Oh my god, Holy Cross dropped football last night. Just think of how much money they will be saving in athletics. Their basketball and hockey teams are about to become a bull in a china shop. We have to get them in now!"?? In fact, can anyone name a time a school dropped football and all of a sudden higher-level basketball conferences immediately started foaming at the mouth to admit that school? Hofstra is a.great example of a school that, despite putting several players in the NFL, decided to drop football. The feeling was at the time that they would use those funds to launch their basketball and lacrosse programs into national prominence. Never happened. They are stuck in the competitive but faceless CAA conference for hoops and they draw flies into a 5500 seat arena for their games. I know. I have had season tickets for over 10 years. Ironically their last sellout was against Holy Cross in the ESPN Bracketbuster game in 2007. I disagree. I was among the very few who attended the high energy and high quality Hofstra football games. As a Stony Brook fan I followed this closely
The administration was quite adamant that the cost (4+ million at the time) would be put back into academics (including a new medical school) and financial aid for all students. They also cited a lack of fan (student and otherwise) interest. They could not have been more clear about it .
(The Jay Wright/Speedy Claxon years were long gone by this time and their was no talk of pouring money into basketball and lacrosse).
"As we continue to improve our academic programs and reputation, and plan the University's future, we have to consider the investment we make in all of the University's programs," Rabinowitz said. "The cost of the football program, now and in the future, far exceeds the return possible from an FCS program, which does not generate significant national interest. Given that, along with the low level of interest, financial support and attendance among our students, our alumni and the community, the choice was painful, but clear."
"In the long run," Rabinowitz said, "we can touch and improve the lives of more students by investing in new and enhanced academic initiatives and increasing funds for need-based scholarships."
These are, indeed, interesting words. www.gohofstra.com/news/2009/12/3/HOFSTRA_TO_END_INTERCOLLEGIATE_FOOTBALL_PROGRAM_TO_INVEST_IN_ACADEMIC_INITIATIVES.aspx?mobile=skip
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Post by hcpride on Oct 24, 2017 6:19:31 GMT -5
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