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Post by hcpride on Nov 12, 2017 14:53:12 GMT -5
Recruits look much more highly on the Ivy League. Just use the eyeball test and look at the talent. Right, so what's wrong with Patriot League football to a recruit, free education at great institutions? At the risk of piling on, Patriot League is not the only option for talented recruits. Not sure you are getting it.
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Lehigh
Nov 12, 2017 15:02:04 GMT -5
Post by hcpride on Nov 12, 2017 15:02:04 GMT -5
In my experience football recruits want the following from a program, and in this order: 1. Confidence that he will get on the field early and often, in meaningful way, and at his desired position. 2. Chance to play at the most highly regarded/competitive Division (as in 3, 2, 1 FCS, 1 FBS) 3. Best chance to win league championships/compete for a national title 4. Feeling of connection with existing players based on recruiting visits 5. Feeling of enthusiasm about and support for football from the school. Facilities and gameday environment enter here. 4. For some, confidence that from among the best football schools recruiting them, that they are getting best possible education. For some, like the pool from which HC is recruiting, #4 might be higher up, but this is not the norm. For many, woven into this is also his family’s financial need relative to what an individual school might be offering in terms of aid/scholarship. These two caveats, and the #@*&$~!ty state and self-imposed handicaps of PL football, is why we cannot outrecruit the IL. If NP doesn’t understand this I would be shocked. Who is he going to find to lead the purple? Who is up to the task? Who out there is such an incredible coach that he can make this thing work within the confines of Patriot League football. Clock is ticking. We need to exit this league, boys. I think the HC dream is to successfully pry away top-end and academically qualifying CAA recruits. Making us THE Patriot League football power. How this is to be done and why a kid would make this sort of choice is not clear....and seems to be slipping further and further from reality. (Nobody's fantasizing of winning Ivy League or Boston College recruiting battles anymore.)
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Lehigh
Nov 12, 2017 16:29:09 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by joe on Nov 12, 2017 16:29:09 GMT -5
Yeah this has been HC’s agenda for decades but until every factor that can be equalized has been equalized and those that can be exceeded are exceeded, it’s has been shown to be, and continues to be, a fool’s errand.
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Lehigh
Nov 12, 2017 20:38:45 GMT -5
Post by jkh67 on Nov 12, 2017 20:38:45 GMT -5
Recruits look much more highly on the Ivy League. Just use the eyeball test and look at the talent. Right, so what's wrong with Patriot League football to a recruit, free education at great institutions? You've got to be kidding! All things being equal, how many would go to a PL school rather than the Ivy League...especially if they're interested in a "free education at great institutions"? Not many takers, I expect. The only way to out recruit them is with a stronger football conference. And the PL ain't there, that's for sure.
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Lehigh
Nov 13, 2017 6:56:16 GMT -5
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Post by joe on Nov 13, 2017 6:56:16 GMT -5
To what jk is saying, to a recruit it’s really about being on a great team. The conference is secondary to a recruit, but the problem is that the PL does not provide the framework to foster such a team or teams, save for on rare occasions. The PL must eliminate every possible handicap and utilize every possible advantage if it wishes to consistently win against the IL and compete evenly with what many consider a solid benchmark in the CAA. Try as the PL might to be brothers-in-arms win the IL, it’s impossible. The two conferences operate under different philosophies, financial strategies, athletic history, and have different academic reputations. They seem similar at first, but frankly the PL and CAA bear closer resemblance to each their. The Ivy model has and willl continue to work well only for the Ivies. Anyone who has played, watched, or followed HC football can see this.
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Lehigh
Nov 13, 2017 7:03:20 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by ncaam on Nov 13, 2017 7:03:20 GMT -5
We beat Jesuit brethren GU and FU. TPTB are happy.
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Lehigh
Nov 13, 2017 7:39:19 GMT -5
Post by hcpride on Nov 13, 2017 7:39:19 GMT -5
To what jk is saying, to a recruit it’s really about being on a great team. The conference is secondary to a recruit, but the problem is that the PL does not provide the framework to foster such a team or teams, save for on rare occasions. The PL must eliminate every possible handicap and utilize every possible advantage if it wishes to consistently win against the IL and compete evenly with what many consider a solid benchmark in the CAA. Try as the PL might to be brothers-in-arms win the IL, it’s impossible. The two conferences operate under different philosophies, financial strategies, athletic history, and have different academic reputations. They seem similar at first, but frankly the PL and CAA bear closer resemblance to each their. The Ivy model has and willl continue to work well only for the Ivies. Anyone who has played, watched, or followed HC football can see this. I think there was an unspoken assumption that a critical mass of academically oriented CAA-level football kids would be dazzled by HC's academic reputation and head our way once we offered full scholarships. That is not a realistic view of our school's level of recognition in general, and our current football and academic reputations in particular. (It is also indicative of a failure to recognize the current football and academic reputations of places like Villanova, Richmond, William and Mary, Stony Brook, UNH, etc.).
There was also a more farfetched fantasy that some Ivy kids who didn't get much financial aid might head our way for the full schollie. That reflected a woeful mis-appreciation of HYP financial aid and the power of the Ivy academic/football reputations.
Lessons learned.
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Lehigh
Nov 13, 2017 7:49:40 GMT -5
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Post by joe on Nov 13, 2017 7:49:40 GMT -5
Agree with that assessment. It’s institutional arrogance.
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Lehigh
Nov 13, 2017 8:06:21 GMT -5
Post by realism on Nov 13, 2017 8:06:21 GMT -5
Agree with that assessment. It’s institutional arrogance. I'm reluctant to cite H.C. problems as totally reflective of PL restrictions or miscalculations. As an institution, H.C. has distinguished itself by bringing on some unique problems all by itself. And, there is a variation of how well individual PL programs are positioned for the next couple of years, even within this weak PL environment this year. H.C. is a mess, even after 4 years of leadership by a well paid new AD. To an outsider, H.C.'s governance history over the past couple of decades is really suspect. Get real!
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Lehigh
Nov 13, 2017 8:27:10 GMT -5
Post by joe on Nov 13, 2017 8:27:10 GMT -5
The arrogance is thinking that despite internally-imposed handicaps (ie. overly strict admissions) and externally-imposed handicaps (ie. idiotic PL rules re: schollie limit, AI, and red-shirting), that HC is such a great athletic and academic institution that we'd somehow "figure it out" and rise above it all, and that 16-18 year old football players would somehow recognize some intangible aspect about HC football and the college itself, so incredible that they would shun Villanova, Princeton, Colgate, or other CAA, IL, PL schools. Either there is something magical about HC that isn't being conveying on the recruiting trial, or there simply isn't anything more magical about HC anymore. Although I do feel that a rejuvenated HC football program would be a more special place to play than anywhere else, I'm not sure we can expect a recruit from to buy it from whatever marketing material and campus tours they are shown. This is where the arrogance comes into play.
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Post by gks on Nov 13, 2017 9:13:22 GMT -5
This is from a non-alum, local point of view....HC Football has ignored their own backyard for so long they have become an after thought to the northeast recruiting pool. When is the last time an impact player from Worcester was on the HC roster? And I don't want to hear there's no talent here. Right now there are 4 CMass kids on active NFL rosters and playing significant minutes. There's talent here and in New England. HC has chosen to ignore it. If you don't take care of your backyard you're in trouble. Of course winning helps....and that hasn't happened either.
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Lehigh
Nov 13, 2017 9:24:10 GMT -5
via mobile
rgs318 likes this
Post by sader1970 on Nov 13, 2017 9:24:10 GMT -5
The main difference between the IL and PL is $$$$ and the fact that while most PL schools are 150 years old, the IL schools are 100 years older and as a result have had a giant head start at building their endowments and academic reputations.
There are no conferences that can compare academically with the IL but the only one that can come anywhere close is the PL.
The folks here show typical American level of patience - not much.
We just made close to $100 million investment in LAC. There is already evidence both in what the coaches say and what we are seeing on the field and court that we are landing higher quality recruits.
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Lehigh
Nov 13, 2017 9:39:39 GMT -5
Post by hcpride on Nov 13, 2017 9:39:39 GMT -5
Forget the Ivy League comparisons. Or Boston College comparisons. Or Villanova comparisons. Differences are understood in all three cases and we are stealing football recruits from none of these.
I have seen no evidence on the football field of an uptick in recruit quality (notwithstanding some very complicated and purple-hued explanations) the last two years. Have no expectation or evidence the events this year will turn that around. Do folks ever check out 247?
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Lehigh
Nov 13, 2017 9:50:07 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by richh on Nov 13, 2017 9:50:07 GMT -5
Right, so what's wrong with Patriot League football to a recruit, free education at great institutions? You've got to be kidding! All things being equal, how many would go to a PL school rather than the Ivy League...especially if they're interested in a "free education at great institutions"? Not many takers, I expect. The only way to out recruit them is with a stronger football conference. And the PL ain't there, that's for sure. A bit overbroad. True PL still loses prospects to the Ivies. However, we now lose far fewer prospects. Last 2 years PL kept just under 40% of prospects holding Ivy offers. Interesting to not that not all of those we lost went Ivy choosing other conferences.
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Post by dharry13 on Nov 13, 2017 10:38:11 GMT -5
HC Pride - you've seen no uptick in recruit quality? Interesting - Bowler - took from URichmond; Jackson - had multiple D1 offers from New Mexico, Idaho, Hawaii; Brekke/Foley - had multiple other D1AA offers; Degenhardt - was being recruited by FBS schools - 3* recruit; Ayeni - offer from SMU; Fletcher - offer from FAU; Whitley - rumors that BC and Syracuse might come in late on this player; Kyle Moses - was coming here, but ultimately ended up at UNLV; I just rolled off 9 kids without thinking much of it; you can throw the LB's from GA in there, Ward, etc., etc.;
Yes - it hasn't translated to the field yet. However, if you continue to get classes like the Frosh class, the wins will ultimately come because talent will ultimately win out.
Duffner didn't just win because he was a great coach. He had Ciaccio at QB who was being recruited by Syracuse for a time before coming here.
I just don't buy the no evidence of an uptick in recruit quality. Which is why I keep saying - they can't take many kids who have no scholarship offers. It's a red flag that more often than not they won't be able to compete at this level. It just doesn't work out.
Look at McBeath - none of us had any idea what type of player he would be. The only thing we knew was that he had a full ride to UMASS before UMASS pulled it from him. So he came here and had a fantastic career. Point is, you can gain an idea on the talent of a player based on where he's being offered (it's not always perfect granted). The more kids you get with multiple offers, chances are the better player that he is and will be.
I would argue the FROSH class and SOPH class has many of those types of players. This class is critical to gain on the momentum from last year, as well as getting the right coach in here to actually coach up that talent even further.
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Lehigh
Nov 13, 2017 10:57:16 GMT -5
Post by crusader12 on Nov 13, 2017 10:57:16 GMT -5
The Patriot League stinks, anyone who thinks it's a great league is out to lunch. Unfortunately it's probably where HC belongs....SAD!
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Lehigh
Nov 13, 2017 11:42:47 GMT -5
Post by hcpride on Nov 13, 2017 11:42:47 GMT -5
HC Pride - you've seen no uptick in recruit quality? Yes - it hasn't translated to the field yet. However, if you continue to get classes like the Frosh class, the wins will ultimately come because talent will ultimately win out. Duffner didn't just win because he was a great coach. He had Ciaccio at QB who was being recruited by Syracuse for a time before coming here. I just don't buy the no evidence of an uptick in recruit quality. Which is why I keep saying - they can't take many kids who have no scholarship offers. It's a red flag that more often than not they won't be able to compete at this level. It just doesn't work out. Look at McBeath - none of us had any idea what type of player he would be. The only thing we knew was that he had a full ride to UMASS before UMASS pulled it from him. So he came here and had a fantastic career. Point is, you can gain an idea on the talent of a player based on where he's being offered (it's not always perfect granted). The more kids you get with multiple offers, chances are the better player that he is and will be. I would argue the FROSH class and SOPH class has many of those types of players. This class is critical to gain on the momentum from last year, as well as getting the right coach in here to actually coach up that talent even further. Again, "I have seen no evidence on the football field of an uptick in recruit quality (notwithstanding some very complicated and purple-hued explanations) the last two years. Have no expectation or evidence the events this year will turn that around. Do folks ever check out 247?" I think we agree.
I eyeball the offensive skill/speed positions. That is where one frequently sees enormous frosh/soph contributions and would indicate (generally) strength of recent recruiting. HC seems lacking in this regard.
(McBeth makes my point BTW, he broke in as one of the team's top tacklers as a freshman.)
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Lehigh
Nov 13, 2017 13:26:59 GMT -5
Post by 6sader7 on Nov 13, 2017 13:26:59 GMT -5
Why are we still debating the recruiting issue at HC? There is zero matter of debate around these 2 facts: 1. The rest of the Patriot League is admitting Student-Athletes that Holy Cross will not - This is a Fact. 2. The rest of the Patriot League (for football) is ranked higher academically than Holy Cross. Lastly, this is an embarrassing (at best) post-game interview: www.facebook.com/HCrossFootball/videos/2003627909850227/
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Lehigh
Nov 13, 2017 14:11:54 GMT -5
Post by bison137 on Nov 13, 2017 14:11:54 GMT -5
Why are we still debating the recruiting issue at HC? There is zero matter of debate around these 2 facts: 1. The rest of the Patriot League is admitting Student-Athletes that Holy Cross will not - This is a Fact. That is absolutely NOT a fact. It is an excuse, but not a valid one.
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Lehigh
Nov 13, 2017 14:17:20 GMT -5
Post by 6sader7 on Nov 13, 2017 14:17:20 GMT -5
Why are we still debating the recruiting issue at HC? There is zero matter of debate around these 2 facts: 1. The rest of the Patriot League is admitting Student-Athletes that Holy Cross will not - This is a Fact. That is absolutely NOT a fact. It is an excuse, but not a valid one. I completely disagree with you -- I have been told this first hand by Football coaches themselves at several Patriot League schools. We have also had parents of players at other Patriot League schools attest to the same on this board. What are you basing your statement off of?
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Lehigh
Nov 13, 2017 15:01:36 GMT -5
Post by crusader12 on Nov 13, 2017 15:01:36 GMT -5
Why are we still debating the recruiting issue at HC? There is zero matter of debate around these 2 facts: 1. The rest of the Patriot League is admitting Student-Athletes that Holy Cross will not - This is a Fact. That is absolutely NOT a fact. It is an excuse, but not a valid one. That is absolutely a fact.
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Lehigh
Nov 13, 2017 15:12:02 GMT -5
Post by beerseach on Nov 13, 2017 15:12:02 GMT -5
Just got home from the game. Biggest weakness today? Special teams. Special teams was a huge issue ALL season. After the initial week of change to Coach Rock, I thought the last three games ere played with spirit and competitive effort, a great job done by Coach Rock and the staff to end the season. Clearly had the coaching change been made when it should have been after the season last season, this season would have been more successful in my opinion. I'm sure ADNP is kicking himself for not pulling the trigger after Yankee Stadium. Now go get a young energetic guy who will change the culture of the program. The talent is there. The negative aura appears to be gone....
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Lehigh
Nov 13, 2017 15:40:51 GMT -5
Post by rgs318 on Nov 13, 2017 15:40:51 GMT -5
Beersearch, From your mouth to Gods ear.
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Lehigh
Nov 13, 2017 16:47:51 GMT -5
Post by td128 on Nov 13, 2017 16:47:51 GMT -5
TOTAL OFFENSE stats for the season on an individual game by game. Aug 31, 2017 at Connecticut........ . . 447 Sep 09, 2017 at Bucknell............ . . .312 Sep 16, 2017 NEW HAMPSHIRE.....520 Sep 23, 2017 at Dartmouth........... . .394 Sep 30, 2017 LAFAYETTE.............. 319 Oct 07, 2017 MONMOUTH...............640 Oct 14, 2017 at Yale................ 143 Oct 21, 2017 COLGATE................ 271 Oct 28, 2017 GEORGETOWN.........401 Nov 04, 2017 at Fordham............. 529 Nov 11, 2017 at Lehigh.............. 397
Totals.............................. 4373
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Lehigh
Nov 13, 2017 20:28:25 GMT -5
Post by jkh67 on Nov 13, 2017 20:28:25 GMT -5
I must say that the overall negativity of the views expressed on this thread makes me wonder whether HC can ever be successful again at the FCS level, given all that's happened since the early 1990s.
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