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Post by rgs318 on Apr 13, 2018 11:34:19 GMT -5
Perhaps it is great in part because he is not.  |
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Post by hcpride on Apr 13, 2018 11:43:52 GMT -5
Any chance we can send him on sabbatical there?
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Post by hcpride on Apr 13, 2018 11:56:57 GMT -5
I just read the post by HC Pride. In my experience and reading of rankings Villanova, while it has improved in name recognition and number of applicants (due to recent b-ball success? The Flutie Effect?) does not have an academic reputation among those in the field that remotely rivals HC. Academic reputation is more than a popularity contest! Look we all know that the much publicized rankings are money making endeavors designed to keep various publications afloat but they are notoriously flawed. I recently read a ranking survey which indeed placed Villanova ahead of HC and this ranking also placed Duquesne ahead of HC. Duquesne? Yup! Come on man. Although flawed those rankings which I have read for what they are worth connsistently rank HC higher than Villanova. As I posted earlier I don't understand the fixation on Villanova. Love HC. I just read another post on Villanova by mm67 . The academic stats (Top 10% and ACT/SAT scores) of the incoming enrolled Villanova students the past few years have outdistanced ours - I am talking academic quality and not sheer number of applicants. Although there is that too. That certainly feeds its academic reputation among the well-informed prospective applicants. (It is also true - and quite separate and apart from my point - that rankings sometimes place HC well and sometimes place them not so well.) |
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Apr 15, 2018 9:03:41 GMT -5
As I have noted before, I grew up close to Villanova, so I have a historical perception grounded in proximity, and a current perception that is more anecdotal than anything. Years ago, I would have ranked the Big Five as UPenn, Temple, St. Joe's, Villanova, and LaSalle. Drexel wasn't really in the conversation, other than that's a school near UPenn. Today, I would rank the Big Five as UPenn, Villanova, Temple, St Joes, [Drexel], and LaSalle. What happened? > White flight from much of Philadelphia proper, associated with the decline of good blue collar jobs (manufacturing). > The near collapse of the archdiocesan school system, particularly in the city, less so in the suburbs. Way back when, the tuition costs at a Catholic high school were paid for by the parish, not the parents. > Only UPenn had the resources to create buffers between its campus and nearby less-than-desirable neighborhoods . (Drexel got to tag along.) ___________________ The result: I think one can reasonably question whether LaSalle can survive long-term. St. Joe's is struggling. Temple? There are many other urban campuses I would choose over Temple and Philadelphia. I think Swarthmore and Haverford are stagnant, and Bryn Mawr is slipping. Villanova was well-positioned -- particularly geographically -- to take advantage of the decline of other institutions. Suburban campus, upscale neighborhood, very good transportation options All that, and a weak public university system in southeastern PA, few public universities in NJ, weak Catholic universities in NJ , very limited higher education opportunities in Delaware and northern Maryland, and voila. And if you want to see the future of Villanova, go to: goo.gl/maps/NSP1WYpSfjF2and drive west on Lancaster Pike until you are past the new pedestrian bridge over the highway. (The streetview is from 5-6 months ago.) That's Easy St. on steroids. Villanova has now pretty much run out of land, but there is always Rosemont, whose campus is a five iron from Villanova stadium. I would not suggest Villanova if one wanted a traditional liberal arts school, but it seems traditional liberal arts are in disfavor. |
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Post by sader1970 on Apr 15, 2018 10:05:26 GMT -5
USN&WR stats, not my personal opinion, since some posters apparently obsess about Villanova and claim, based on personal opinion and a small sampling of students he deals with, that the Wildcat reputation is better than the Crusader reputation (have to agree on the mascot, as we don't have one anymore).
First, we are comparing a good apple with a good orange. What the schools have in common is a Catholic identity, though admittedly, Holy Cross seems to be wandering away from those roots. The college/university that I am most familiar with that seems to cherish its Catholicism is Fairfield. The one that seems to most disassociate with its Catholic heritage is Georgetown.
Anyway, Villanova has indeed moved the needle as it has moved from the USN&WR "Northeast regional university" to "National University" moving in with the big boys. Villanova was always #1 or #2 best regional university in the Northeast with Providence and Fairfield usually #2 and #3. Currently, in the Northeast regional university rankings: #1 PC, #2 Bentley, #3 Fairfield.
Current USN&WR rankings shows Villanova #46 best national university and is "more selective." Thy have 6,999 undergrads in 2016 with 44% acceptance rate and a 12:1 student/faculty ratio with an 86% 4 year graduation rate. Students who applied to Villanova also applied to Fordham, BC, Notre Dame and Northeastern.
USN&WR rankings show Holy Cross #33 national liberal arts college (tied with Bucknell but behind #12 Colgate and ahead of #36 Lafayette) and is also "more selective" (my clear memory years ago was it had been in the "most selective" category, so a drop off there). There were 2,941 students at Holy Cross in 2016 with a 38% acceptance rate, a 10:1 student/faculty ratio with an 89% 4 year graduation rate. Students ho applied to Holy Cross also applied to Fordham, BC, Notre Dame and Providence College, the same as Villanova with the exception of Northeastern for VU and PC for HC. Note, Holy Cross and Villanova aren't listed in the top 4 of common schools applied to for either.
How do the various rankings of Catholic colleges and universities place these two? Well, Notre Dame consistently tops all those rankings, then it is a dogfight.
College Factual rankings:
1. Notre Dame
2. Holy Cross
3. Georgetown
4. Villanova
5. BC
Town & Country Magazine rankings:
1. Notre Dame
2. Georgetown
3. BC
4. Holy Cross
5. Villanova
USA Today rankings:
1. Notre Dame
2. Holy Cross
3. Georgetown
4. BC
5. Villanova
College Choice rankings:
1. Notre Dame
2. Georgetown
3. Villanova
4. BC
5. Creighton
6. Santa Clara
7. Holy Cross
So, I repeat, we are comparing a liberal arts college with a national university. No question that Holy Cross has slipped in the rankings as we have discussed ad nauseam here over the years and Villanova has improved. But IMHO, the difference that used to be huge between the two has shrunken but Holy Cross would still seem to be the overall better school. If the trend continues, Villanova will surpass Holy Cross . . . but not yet.
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 15, 2018 10:08:27 GMT -5
Overall, I believe this to be a fair assessment of the current situation.
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Post by hcpride on Apr 15, 2018 11:40:15 GMT -5
USN&WR stats, not my personal opinion, since some posters apparently obsess about Villanova and claim, based on personal opinion and a small sampling of students he deals with, that the Wildcat reputation is better than the Crusader reputation (have to agree on the mascot, as we don't have one anymore). First, we are comparing a good apple with a good orange. What the schools have in common is a Catholic identity, though admittedly, Holy Cross seems to be wandering away from those roots. The college/university that I am most familiar with that seems to cherish its Catholicism is Fairfield. The one that seems to most disassociate with its Catholic heritage is Georgetown. Anyway, Villanova has indeed moved the needle as it has moved from the USN&WR "Northeast regional university" to "National University" moving in with the big boys. Villanova was always #1 or #2 best regional university in the Northeast with Providence and Fairfield usually #2 and #3. Currently, in the Northeast regional university rankings: #1 PC, #2 Bentley, #3 Fairfield. Current USN&WR rankings shows Villanova #46 best national university and is "more selective." Thy have 6,999 undergrads in 2016 with 44% acceptance rate and a 12:1 student/faculty ratio with an 86% 4 year graduation rate. Students who applied to Villanova also applied to Fordham, BC, Notre Dame and Northeastern. USN&WR rankings show Holy Cross #33 national liberal arts college (tied with Bucknell but behind #12 Colgate and ahead of #36 Lafayette) and is also "more selective" (my clear memory years ago was it had been in the "most selective" category, so a drop off there). There were 2,941 students at Holy Cross in 2016 with a 38% acceptance rate, a 10:1 student/faculty ratio with an 89% 4 year graduation rate. Students ho applied to Holy Cross also applied to Fordham, BC, Notre Dame and Providence College, the same as Villanova with the exception of Northeastern for VU and PC for HC. Note, Holy Cross and Villanova aren't listed in the top 4 of common schools applied to for either. How do the various rankings of Catholic colleges and universities place these two? Well, Notre Dame consistently tops all those rankings, then it is a dogfight. College Factual rankings: 1. Notre Dame 2. Holy Cross 3. Georgetown 4. Villanova 5. BC Town & Country Magazine rankings: 1. Notre Dame 2. Georgetown 3. BC 4. Holy Cross 5. Villanova USA Today rankings: 1. Notre Dame 2. Holy Cross 3. Georgetown 4. BC 5. Villanova College Choice rankings: 1. Notre Dame 2. Georgetown 3. Villanova 4. BC 5. Creighton 6. Santa Clara 7. Holy Cross So, I repeat, we are comparing a liberal arts college with a national university. No question that Holy Cross has slipped in the rankings as we have discussed ad nauseam here over the years and Villanova has improved. But IMHO, the difference that used to be huge between the two has shrunken but Holy Cross would still seem to be the overall better school. If the trend continues, Villanova will surpass Holy Cross . . . but not yet. Well, that is a very fair analysis. (I tend to focus on HC-VU relative academic reputation among the kids/parents/counselors I meet rather than the term 'better' because you and I know the Cross is better) It is certainly true that rankings vary to an extent. The only ones I've ever heard referenced by parents/kids/counselors are USNWR and both schools are now 'more selective' therein. It is also certainly true that HC and VU are in different categories by some measures. As are HC and BC. This does not mean one cannot surpass the other in terms of academic reputation. Kids are current nowadays - data is very available nowadays. Some of it may be persuasive in evaluating/creating relative academic reputations. Here is the latest from the class of 2021 official College Data Sets (the gold standard): Holy Cross Enrolled Students Class of 2021: ACT Composite Average (Test Score Optional): 29.5, Percentage of Students in Top 10%: 57.2% Villanova Enrolled Students Class of 2021: ACT Composite Average (Actual): 31.5, Percentage of Students in Top 10%: 65%
*Those ACT numbers are not very close .... top score is a 36 for those unfamiliar. (Also, the great majority at VU use their ACT scores nowadays, FYI). Although subject to manipulation by a million gimmicks, to the extent acceptance rate matters, HC reports Class of 2021 at 39% and Villanova reports Class of 2021 at 35.9% (Your USNWR numbers may be a year older).
(Note: Your information regarding top four application overlap schools is interesting: HC : Fordham, BC, ND, and PC. Villanova: Fordham, BC, ND and Northeastern) |
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Post by Chu Chu on Apr 15, 2018 14:29:14 GMT -5
OK hcpride point well taken. Thank you. I guess I was comparing HC to Villanova's School of Arts and Sciences. Clearly HC has slipped over the years. I viewed the dropping of the SAT requirement with alarm as a statement of decline in admissions. In my day HC was widely considered the best Catholic college(along w/ G'Town & ND ) in the nation. I was well aware that the world has changed. Certainly, the quality of the admits has declined in relation to Villanova, BC and other schools. However,I'm still not convinced that Villanova is on a par in reputation nor do most rankings indicate that they are on a par with HC. Maybe, its my narcissistic, obstinate, irrational love of HC. But, from the little I uncovered Villanova (engineering included) seems to be doing great. HC appears to be in decline, in the doldrums,muddling along. But, I still wonder how other small selective liberal arts colleges, such as Amherst, Bowdoin, Wesleyan, Colgate, etc. have maintained/improved their academic profile. In the past I have stated to my HC friends my concern that HC was in decline and needed more dynamic, imaginative leadership within the Small Liberal Arts College paradigm. In my view I would not be in favor of HC lowering itself to an anodyne small Comprehensive University a la Villanova. Any ideas? Love HC. As a left coast Lutheran alum who is located far from alma mater, I have heard comments from prospective students that may be germane. For students in our area who are not already familiar with Holy Cross, the first thing that jumps out is the name, Holy Cross. The only other Roman Catholic schools I can think of with a more religious sounding name are Ave Maria and Sacred Heart. This Catholic identity will attract those students who are looking for a nurturing, Catholic environment, but it does not attract students who otherwise would be a perfect fit who are not, or who think they are not, looking for a Roman Catholic college. Think of the girl in the movie "Lady Bird" coming from the Catholic high school who said she wanted to go anywhere that was not Catholic. Other Jesuit colleges do not have this name identity issue, for example, Seattle U, Loyola U, Boston College, U of Detroit, etc. I offer the comments not as a criticism, but simply as an observation. I do not advocate a name change, but I think that the name narrows our pool of applicants. |
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Apr 16, 2018 6:56:13 GMT -5
Chu, there are a few others; e.g., . St. Joe's (for the Jesuits), St. Mary's, St. Bonaventure (Villanova is named for St. Thomas of Villanova.) Santa Clara from St. Clare; UC Santa Cruz named after.........; the University of San Francisco can thank Junipero Serra, the Franciscan. My belief, after some study, is that the Cathedral of the Holy Cross in Boston was named for the Eglise Sainte-Croix-de-la-Cite, so HC might go the foreign language route, like Notre Dame du Lac.  ^^^ The missing "N" is poor grounds maintenance; its missing in more than one photograph. Just think of what Notre Dame do lac could do with Arthurian symbology and legend  Arthur receives Excalibur (note the cross in the hilt) from the Lady of the Lake. |
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Post by alum on Apr 16, 2018 8:27:14 GMT -5
Since this has become a Villanova/Holy Cross comparison thread, let's look at cost of attendance and financial aid. Per Princeton Review ( This is obviously a little dated)VillanovaFinancial Aid Statistics Average Freshman Total Need-Based Gift Aid $34,470 Average Undergraduate Total Need-Based Gift Aid $32,405 Average Need-Based Loan $5,104 Undergraduates who have borrowed through any loan program
60%Average amount of loan debt per graduate $24,752 Average amount of each freshman scholarship/grant package $30,722 Financial aid provided to international students Yes Expenses per Academic Year Tuition $50,554 Required Fees $670 Average Cost for Books and Supplies $1,100 Tuition / Fees Vary by Year of Study No Board for Commuters $6,120 Transportation for Commuters $2,500 On-Campus Room and Board $13,548 Financial Aid Rating82/99Holy CrossFinancial Aid Statistics
Average Freshman Total Need-Based Gift Aid $36,511 Average Undergraduate Total Need-Based Gift Aid $36,836 Average Need-Based Loan
$5,413
Undergraduates who have borrowed through any loan program
52%Average amount of loan debt per graduate $26,258 Average amount of each freshman scholarship/grant package $37,200 Financial aid provided to international students Yes Expenses per Academic Year Tuition $49,980 Required Fees $650 Average Cost for Books and Supplies $1,000 Tuition / Fees Vary by Year of Study No Board for Commuters $6,300 On-Campus Room and Board $13,690 Financial Aid Rating
94/99Villanova would appear to offer substantially more merit based aid than Holy Cross www1.villanova.edu/villanova/admission/affordable/scholarships.htmlwww.holycross.edu/how-aid-works/scholarships-grantsI don't purport to know how the Princeton Review calculates its Financial Aid rating but obviously HC apparently scores substantially higher. HC has 52% receiving loans of some kind vs. Nova at 60%. That could be the result of two radically different scenarios. It is possible that HC is becoming more of a "rich kid" school as noted above or it could mean that there are VU parents taking PLUS loans out to make up the difference between what must be less than 100% aid and the family contribution. I suspect it is a little of both. The point, however, is that many might find out, if they pursued it, that HC would be several thousand dollars per year cheaper than Nova. It would appear that VU is making pretty substantial use of merit money. I think that those funds can be most helpful in attracting the full pay or near full pay students for whom it makes a private university like VU comparable in cost to a flagship state university---especially for kids from families that are attracted to the business/engineering degrees seen to be a better path to a first job. I continue to believe that HC ought to spend more resources on admissions outreach. Why not get aggressive in a marketing campaign in the Mid Atlantic states that directly compares HC vis a vis cost of attendance and outcomes (law/medical school admissions, Fulbrights, job placement, etc.) to Nova, Fordham, Loyola (Maryland) and other Catholic colleges with whom me might have overlap. I am sure that one can buy names from PSAT scores targeted at Catholic high schools in NY, MD, NJ and PA. Our admissions yield is pretty good. I remain convinced that if Admissions can get the kids to visit and apply, they will come. |
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Post by hcpride on Apr 16, 2018 8:36:31 GMT -5
As a left coast Lutheran alum who is located far from alma mater, I have heard comments from prospective students that may be germane. For students in our area who are not already familiar with Holy Cross, the first thing that jumps out is the name, Holy Cross. The only other Roman Catholic schools I can think of with a more religious sounding name are Ave Maria and Sacred Heart. This Catholic identity will attract those students who are looking for a nurturing, Catholic environment, but it does not attract students who otherwise would be a perfect fit who are not, or who think they are not, looking for a Roman Catholic college. Think of the girl in the movie "Lady Bird" coming from the Catholic high school who said she wanted to go anywhere that was not Catholic. Other Jesuit colleges do not have this name identity issue, for example, Seattle U, Loyola U, Boston College, U of Detroit, etc. I offer the comments not as a criticism, but simply as an observation. I do not advocate a name change, but I think that the name narrows our pool of applicants. I think that it is a very fair point that nowadays a (very) overtly Catholic name may not be the advantage it once was. Some other East Coast competitors such as Fordham, Villanova, Providence, etc. don't have this potential disadvantage. (Like you I am not suggesting it is decisive but it is one more aspect that may have an effect at the margins.) |
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Post by sader1970 on Apr 16, 2018 8:43:43 GMT -5
And does this overtly Catholic name disadvantage have anything to do with the the Administration’s muted response to Liew’s writings? “Let’s not bring Catholicism at Holy Cross to the front of the discussion.”
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Post by hcpride on Apr 16, 2018 10:04:40 GMT -5
And does this overtly Catholic name disadvantage have anything to do with the the Administration’s muted response to Liew’s writings? “Let’s not bring Catholicism at Holy Cross to the front of the discussion.” Although ultimately unavailing given our name, I do think we have been trying to be less overtly Catholic with decisions like the Crusader erasure and the timid Liew response. Of course, it could be that the progressive impulse is actually the driving force in both those decisions and not the desire to be less overtly Catholic. Further, the progressive impulse and the desire to be less overtly Catholic could be a distinction without much of a difference. |
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Post by hcpride on Apr 16, 2018 11:00:17 GMT -5
No doubt I am posting my opinion and would hope you are yours. |
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Post by Chu Chu on Apr 16, 2018 13:53:33 GMT -5
It would appear that VU is making pretty substantial use of merit money. I think that those funds can be most helpful in attracting the full pay or near full pay students for whom it makes a private university like VU comparable in cost to a flagship state university BINGO! This is huge. I am personally aware of many well off families with very bright and accomplished children, who have made their decisions in large part on the amount of merit aid their child was awarded. Let's face it, a private college education is horrendously expensive. Merit aid lowers the cost, and also confers an honor and recognition on the student. I went through this with my own daughter, who had merit aid scholarships from many schools which would have given her a fine education. She went to Holy Cross, and we paid the difference, but less purple folks decide the other way. This issue becomes more important as the sticker price increases. |
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Post by HC1843 on Apr 16, 2018 19:53:27 GMT -5
USN&WR stats, not my personal opinion, since some posters apparently obsess about Villanova and claim, based on personal opinion and a small sampling of students he deals with, that the Wildcat reputation is better than the Crusader reputation (have to agree on the mascot, as we don't have one anymore). First, we are comparing a good apple with a good orange. What the schools have in common is a Catholic identity, though admittedly, Holy Cross seems to be wandering away from those roots. The college/university that I am most familiar with that seems to cherish its Catholicism is Fairfield. The one that seems to most disassociate with its Catholic heritage is Georgetown. Anyway, Villanova has indeed moved the needle as it has moved from the USN&WR "Northeast regional university" to "National University" moving in with the big boys. Villanova was always #1 or #2 best regional university in the Northeast with Providence and Fairfield usually #2 and #3. Currently, in the Northeast regional university rankings: #1 PC, #2 Bentley, #3 Fairfield. Current USN&WR rankings shows Villanova #46 best national university and is "more selective." Thy have 6,999 undergrads in 2016 with 44% acceptance rate and a 12:1 student/faculty ratio with an 86% 4 year graduation rate. Students who applied to Villanova also applied to Fordham, BC, Notre Dame and Northeastern. USN&WR rankings show Holy Cross #33 national liberal arts college (tied with Bucknell but behind #12 Colgate and ahead of #36 Lafayette) and is also "more selective" (my clear memory years ago was it had been in the "most selective" category, so a drop off there). There were 2,941 students at Holy Cross in 2016 with a 38% acceptance rate, a 10:1 student/faculty ratio with an 89% 4 year graduation rate. Students ho applied to Holy Cross also applied to Fordham, BC, Notre Dame and Providence College, the same as Villanova with the exception of Northeastern for VU and PC for HC. Note, Holy Cross and Villanova aren't listed in the top 4 of common schools applied to for either. How do the various rankings of Catholic colleges and universities place these two? Well, Notre Dame consistently tops all those rankings, then it is a dogfight. College Factual rankings: 1. Notre Dame 2. Holy Cross 3. Georgetown 4. Villanova 5. BC Town & Country Magazine rankings: 1. Notre Dame 2. Georgetown 3. BC 4. Holy Cross 5. Villanova USA Today rankings: 1. Notre Dame 2. Holy Cross 3. Georgetown 4. BC 5. Villanova College Choice rankings: 1. Notre Dame 2. Georgetown 3. Villanova 4. BC 5. Creighton 6. Santa Clara 7. Holy Cross So, I repeat, we are comparing a liberal arts college with a national university. No question that Holy Cross has slipped in the rankings as we have discussed ad nauseam here over the years and Villanova has improved. But IMHO, the difference that used to be huge between the two has shrunken but Holy Cross would still seem to be the overall better school. If the trend continues, Villanova will surpass Holy Cross . . . but not yet. Well, that is a very fair analysis. (I tend to focus on HC-VU relative academic reputation among the kids/parents/counselors I meet rather than the term 'better' because you and I know the Cross is better) It is certainly true that rankings vary to an extent. The only ones I've ever heard referenced by parents/kids/counselors are USNWR and both schools are now 'more selective' therein. It is also certainly true that HC and VU are in different categories by some measures. As are HC and BC. This does not mean one cannot surpass the other in terms of academic reputation. Kids are current nowadays - data is very available nowadays. Some of it may be persuasive in evaluating/creating relative academic reputations. Here is the latest from the class of 2021 official College Data Sets (the gold standard): Holy Cross Enrolled Students Class of 2021: ACT Composite Average (Test Score Optional): 29.5, Percentage of Students in Top 10%: 57.2% Villanova Enrolled Students Class of 2021: ACT Composite Average (Actual): 31.5, Percentage of Students in Top 10%: 65%
*Those ACT numbers are not very close .... top score is a 36 for those unfamiliar. (Also, the great majority at VU use their ACT scores nowadays, FYI). Although subject to manipulation by a million gimmicks, to the extent acceptance rate matters, HC reports Class of 2021 at 39% and Villanova reports Class of 2021 at 35.9% (Your USNWR numbers may be a year older).
(Note: Your information regarding top four application overlap schools is interesting: HC : Fordham, BC, ND, and PC. Villanova: Fordham, BC, ND and Northeastern) Can we all agree to stop comparing our asterisked numbers to colleges that actually know how to market themselves and are separating themselves from us every year. At the rate alma mater's leadership is digging our grave, we will get laughed at when we suggest we are still in the best catholic school conversation. Folks can bury their heads in the sand all they want. Holy Cross is not getting it done, plain and simple, and it seems that the people who should care either are pretending it is not happening and/or have no clue how to fix it because it will hurt peoples' feelings and require bold and decisive action. Who at HC is capable of bold and decisive action to fix things? No names come to mind for me. Cheers. |
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Apr 17, 2018 6:46:15 GMT -5
Comparing Villanova and Holy Cross
Holy Cross
Number of Undergraduates 3051
Amount of Institutional Need Grants $45.4M, Amount of Institutional non-need grants $2.6M
Student loans Need-based amount $11.0M
Athletic Need Awards $3.6M Athletic merit awards $8.3M
Number of athletic (merit) scollies 205 Average scollie award $37.2K
Students receiving non-athletic, non-need based merit awards 42 Average award $32K
Villanova
Number of undergraduates 6966
Amount of Institutional Need Grants $84.4M, Amount of Institutional non need grants $8.2M
Student loans Need-based amount $28,3M
Athletic Need Awards $3.1M Athletic merit awards $10.2M
Number of athletic (merit) scollies 204 Average award $49.6K
Students receiving non-athletic, non need-based merit awards 498 Average award $16.5K
HC's cost of attendance will not be available until Feb 1. However, HC has not updated previous year CDS's with this value, so I won't hold my breath.
________________________________________________________
'Normalizing' Villanova's financial aid values as if it had the same undergraduate enrollment as HC
Amount of Institutional Need Grants $37.1M, Amount of institutional non need grants $3.6M
Student loans Need-based amount $12,5M
'Normalized', Villanova awards less need-based grant aid, and Villanova students take out more loans
'Normalized' Villanova awards $1 million more in non-need based merit awards than HC.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - -- - -
Villanova / HC Athletics Expenses
Football $6.7M / $6.2M
M Basketball $11.1M / $2.1M
W basketball $2.7M / $1.7M
All other sports $12.9M / $11.1M
Villanova 'loses' money on all sports, including men's basketball.. For a NBE comparison Butler's men's basketball revenue was $6.2M, with expenses of $5.5M Seton Hall's men's basketball expenses were $6.0M and it lost money,
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Post by sader1970 on Apr 17, 2018 8:01:39 GMT -5
I’d be willing to bet anyone associated with Villanova, outside of their athletics department, would be thrilled about this hand-wringing comparison of their school with Holy Cross by a bunch of HC alums.
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Post by hcpride on Apr 17, 2018 9:18:11 GMT -5
I’d be willing to bet anyone associated with Villanova, outside of their athletics department, would be thrilled about this hand-wringing comparison of their school with Holy Cross by a bunch of HC alums. Maybe 10 years ago, times have changed. (Just like BC, Villanova has moved onward and upward.)
I know there are still a few holdouts who (conveniently) believe that since Boston College and Holy Cross are of different sizes and different categories (LAC v University) one simply cannot compare their academic reputations or the academic credentials of their incoming students. And ditto now for Villanova and Holy Cross.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Apr 17, 2018 11:33:13 GMT -5
Boston College doesn't prepare a Common Data Set, so can't compare their financial aid with HC or Villanova. BC does prepare an annual fact book, which presents some data in exquisite detail.
Comparing what majors students at BC pursue to those pursued by students at Holy Cross.
(BC's numbers probably don't encompass all four undergraduate classes, except for nursing.)
BC 2017
College of Arts & Sciences Students by major, five highest majors, (# of students with that major in 1990)
Economics 1162 (530)
Biology 922 (427)
Political Science 893 (823)
Communication 751 (569)
Psychology 485 (516)
School of Education About 650 students with education as a major
(about 615)
School of Management Students by major, four highest majors,
Finance 1042 (578)
Marketing 390 (458)
Accounting 258 (429)
Information Systems 150 (37)
School of Nursing
435 (355)
BC majors with highest increase in students 2008-2017
Disciplines with largest percentage increase in undergraduate enrollment in the past ten years
(Number of majors in 2017 in parentheses)
Computer Science 577% (359)
International studies 92 percent (258)
Biochemistry 89 percent (238)
Information Systems 76 percent (150)
Management & Leadership 74 percent (146)
Mathematics 71 percent (333)
Economics 67 percent (1296) (Econ also offered in School of Management)
Operations Management 64 percent (59)
Physics 44 percent (108)
Biology 40 percent (927)
HC Class of 2017
Major of graduating seniors (HC gives only percentage, thus (numerical count is approximate)
Five highest majors
32 percent social sciences: economics, political science, sociology, anthropology (220
12 percent psychology (82)
8 percent English (55)
8 percent foreign languages (55)
8 percent biology (55)
8 percent math (55)
Other majors listed physical sciences (6 percent), interdisciplinary studies (6 percent), history (5 percent), visual and performing arts (5 percent), religious studies and philosophy (2 percent). 0 percent in computers and information sciences,
The number of students at BC majoring in economics, finance, and marketing is about equal to the entire enrollment at HC.
Sundry BC factoids
* 50 Jesuits in the Jesuit community, down from about 130 in 1996
* Plus an additional 72 in the Peter Faber Jesuit Community (These may have numbered about 25 in 1996, and were included in the 130). The Faber community does not have a direct academic or administrative role at BC.)
* In 1971, all ten members of the BoT at BC were Jesuits. All members of the BoT were also members of the Board of Directors, which included non-religious members..
________
mm67, I lived on the Main Line!
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Post by hcpride on Apr 17, 2018 11:49:51 GMT -5
hcpride With all due respect I just don't know anybody - young & old - who would compare Villanova to HC or agree that Villanova's academic reputation rivals let alone surpasses HC's. .... I know for a fact that a few years ago a colleague's kid was accepted to Villanova but not accepted at her first choice, HC. Obviously admission depends on a lot of factors, so my example does not mean much. But I still ask: why choose Villanova? Respectfully, mm'67. Oh, and Love HC. mm67. Another post on Villanova and I certainly believe your story, but have you looked at this stat?
Holy Cross Enrolled Students Class of 2021: ACT Composite Average (Test Score Optional): 29.5, Percentage of Students in Top 10%: 57.2%
Villanova Enrolled Students Class of 2021: ACT Composite Average (Actual): 31.5, Percentage of Students in Top 10%: 65%
*Those ACT numbers are not very close .... top score is a 36 for those unfamiliar. The kids eyeballing college also know the issue with the 'test score optional numbers' in any case. The top 10% number should also be of interest.
To answer your last question I think the stronger academic kids are choosing Villanova nowadays more than they are choosing Holy Cross for a number of reasons.
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Post by sader1970 on Apr 17, 2018 12:04:42 GMT -5
What is the fascination with Villanova? Very good school but why the persistent effort to try to convince Crossports members the school has surpassed Holy Cross especially coming from someone who chose “hcpride “ as his nom de guerre?
There must be more of a connection to Villanova than someone who is a guidance counselor or high school teacher who hears current students in a particular school.
Own up. Do you have a kid who goes there? A sibling works there?
Is all this stuff to convince us that HC should emphasize sports and strive for a national basketball title?
What’s your agenda because it sure is NOT Holy Cross pride.
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Post by hcpride on Apr 17, 2018 12:09:24 GMT -5
What is the fascination with Villanova? Very good school but why the persistent effort to try to convince Crossports members the school has surpassed Holy Cross especially coming from someone who chose “hcpride “ as his nom de guerre? There must be more of a connection to Villanova than someone who is a guidance counselor or high school teacher who hears current students in a particular school. Own up. Do you have a kid who goes there? A sibling works there? Is all this stuff to convince us that HC should emphasize sports and strive for a national basketball title? What’s your agenda because it sure is NOT Holy Cross pride. I think Holy Cross does emphasize sports (tons of DI teams for our size, tons of DI athletes for our size, a massive Luth). At this point we're just not too good at them.
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Post by alum on Apr 17, 2018 12:25:06 GMT -5
Some quick points:
I don't think that HC Admissions does a good enough job attracting students. (Our old long departed friend HC70 once posted an article from the Washington Post that indicated that not a single public high school student in Montgomery County, MD was going to Holy Cross. How could that be?)
2. I don't think test optional has anything to do with the quality of kids who apply. See Bowdoin, which has been test optional since 1969 and has become very highly competitive.
3. As I have written before, while we study the recruiting process for basketball and football in excruciating detail, we care more about whether we win or lose in competition. For some reason, we think that the only way to measure the academic success of the College is by looking at admissions statistics. Shouldn't we care more about what happens while the students are on campus and upon graduation. See this from the College's web site under Points of Distinction. Look in particular at retention rates, Fulbright's, med and law school admissions.
We are proud to be recognized by publications and organizations that cover higher education for our exceptional academic programs, top professors, and great campus experiences. Here are a few of the factors that set Holy Cross apart.
College Excellence
A+ on Niche's list of 2018 Best Colleges in America
Most beautiful college in Massachusetts, according to Travel + Leisure
No. 1 on LendEdu's list of most beautiful college campus in Massachusetts
No. 2 on USA Today/College Factual's list of best Roman Catholic colleges
No. 4 on Wall Street Journal's list of best Catholic colleges in America
No. 4 on Niche.com's list of best Catholic colleges in America
No. 5 on USA Today/College Factual's list of best colleges in Massachusetts
No. 7 on Niche.com's list of best test optional colleges in America
No. 8 on Best Choice Schools’ list of beautiful urban college campuses
No. 12 on the list of best value liberal arts colleges in the country, according to PayScale’s 2017 College Return on Investment Report
No. 13 on Kiplinger’s list of liberal arts colleges that combine outstanding academics with affordable cost
No. 16 on Washington Monthly’s list of “Best Bang for the Buck - Northeast" colleges
No. 19 on USA Today/College Factual's list of best colleges in the nation
No. 20 on Business Insider's list of best liberal arts colleges
No. 23 on Washington Monthly's list of top liberal arts colleges
No. 26 on Niche.com's list of best small colleges in America
No. 27 on Niche.com's list of best liberal arts colleges in America
No. 29 on Times Higher Education's list of best liberal arts colleges
No. 33 on U.S. News & World Report's list of best liberal arts colleges
No. 36 on The Economist's list of best colleges in America based on value
Included on the Princeton Review's list of best colleges and "Colleges That Pay You Back"
Among the "best and most interesting colleges" in the Fiske Guide to Colleges
One of Money Magazine's "31 Great Colleges That Don't Care About Your Lousy Test Scores"
Among both "The 100 smartest private colleges in America" and "The 101 smartest liberal arts colleges in America," according to Business Insider
No. 1 on the Institute for International Education's list of long-term study abroad programs
No. 3 on Accounting Degree Review's list of "Top 10 Undergraduate Accounting Programs in Massachusetts"
No. 9 on USA Today's list of "best U.S. colleges for a major in English"
No. 2 on OnStage Blog's list of "Top Ten Most Underrated College Theatre Programs for 2017 - North East Region"
One of a select group of "need-blind" colleges that accept students regardless of their ability to pay and meet 100 percent of demonstrated need
Average class size: 19 students (2016-2017 academic year)
Among Bon Appétit's "7 Healthiest College Dining Halls in the Country"
An Edmit "hidden gem" college based on affordability, quality of degree programs, and student outcomes
Holy Cross has been part of either the answer or question on "Jeopardy!" 12 times
Student Achievement
95 percent first-year retention rate
92 percent six-year graduation rate
No. 5 for four-year graduation rates among all colleges and universities in the country, according to U.S. News & World Report
One of the highest graduation rates (97 percent) for student-athletes, among NCAA Division I schools
No. 12 on Money Magazine's list of "The 50 Best Private Colleges for Earning Your Degree On Time"
Success After Graduation
Average starting salary for 2016 graduates: $50,534
Graduating from Holy Cross adds nearly 27 percent to an alum’s average mid-career earnings, according to a study by the Brookings Institution
75 percent medical school acceptance rate
88 percent law school acceptance rate
14 young alumni awarded Fulbright grants to teach and conduct research around the world during the 2017-18 academic year
A top producer of Fulbright students during the 2017-2018 academic year, according to the Chronicle of Higher Education
Over the last five years, 45 Holy Cross graduates have been awarded Fulbright grants to work and teach abroad
Three Holy Cross alumni are recipients of a Pulitzer Prize: Dave Anderson '51 (1991), Jack Higgins '76 (1989), and Edward P. Jones '72 (2004)
Alumni Engagement
For the 11th consecutive year, more than 50 percent of alumni made a gift to Holy Cross during the 2017 fiscal year
No. 4 on the Chronicle of Philanthropy's list of colleges based on alumni participation in giving
No. 11 on U.S. News & World Report's liberal arts colleges with the highest giving rate
No. 12 on Princeton Review's Best Alumni Network list
6,111 donors took part in a 24-hour fundraising challenge for Holy Cross on Feb. 14, 2017, setting a donor record for a liberal arts college
Faculty
All courses are taught by faculty members; none by teaching assistants
95 percent hold terminal degrees
10:1 student to faculty ratio
No. 15 on Princeton Review's list of schools that have the most accessible professors
4 faculty members have won Guggenheim fellowships: Todd Lewis, professor of religious studies (2011); Sarah Stanbury, professor of English (2010); Leila Phillip, associate professor of English (2007); and Osvaldo Golijov, Loyola Professor of Music (1995)
Service and Social Justice
1 in 10 students devotes their spring break to immersion and service projects
SPUD (Student Programs for Urban Development) is the largest student organization at Holy Cross with more than 700 participants, and is connected to more than 46 schools and community organizations
Named to the 2014 President’s Higher Education Community Service Honor Roll for strong institutional commitment to service and partnerships that produce measurable results for the community
15 Holy Cross graduates who have dedicated themselves to a year of service with the Jesuit Volunteer Corps during 2016-17
Sustainability and Stewardship
Charter signatory of Second Nature's Climate Leadership Commitment (previously the American College and University Presidents Climate Commitment)
As part of the commitment, aim to be carbon neutral by 2040
Surpassed our initial campus carbon emissions reduction goal years ahead of schedule
Among the nation’s most environmentally responsible
The challenge is to get people to understand the above and to also continually sell the value of the liberal arts education. We are not BC, ND, VU, or Georgetown, and don't aspire to be them. We should not apologize for being a liberal arts college. We should try to explain how it is that kids with liberal arts degrees do as well or better in the business world than graduates of large universities. We should aspire to attract kids who go to those schools for whom a small liberal arts college is a good fit.
And most importantly, we ought to beef up financial aid so that we beat all of these schools and most of the NESCAC's on price.
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Post by sader1970 on Apr 17, 2018 13:08:05 GMT -5
One of the best non-sports posts ever on Crossports. Kudos!
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