|
Post by purplehaze on Aug 7, 2018 14:51:49 GMT -5
Picked up this article on the ivy board - talks about the chances of entering the playoff picture eventually, but more importantly includes to story on how they are recruiting (in all sports) with more $ from their huge endowments. This Ivy football train 'has left the station' and there is no turning back. Honestly, see continued challenges for PL schools to compete with a mere 60 equivalents. (Can you imagine the talent gap if we had not restored athletic scholarships ?) www.sbnation.com/college-football/2018/8/7/17298832/ivy-league-fcs-playoffs
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Aug 7, 2018 15:12:24 GMT -5
No athletic or academic merit schollies, but lower, middle and many upper-middle class kids (athletes and non-athletes) can attend essentially for free.
Yes, talent gap between HYP (at least) and PL has grown. (Cost free at HYP v full athletic schollie PL is a no brainer)
|
|
|
Post by bison137 on Aug 7, 2018 15:26:19 GMT -5
No athletic or academic merit schollies, but lower, middle and many upper-middle class kids (athletes and non-athletes) can attend essentially for free. Yes, talent gap between HYP (at least) and PL has grown. (Cost free at HYP v full athletic schollie PL is a no brainer) Agree completely. But, as you say, the Ivies do not have schollies.
|
|
|
Post by KY Crusader 75 on Aug 7, 2018 16:29:18 GMT -5
No athletic or academic merit schollies, but lower, middle and many upper-middle class kids (athletes and non-athletes) can attend essentially for free. Yes, talent gap between HYP (at least) and PL has grown. (Cost free at HYP v full athletic schollie PL is a no brainer)It's hard to assess talent in retrospect, but here's how H-Y-P have performed on the field of late. I took a look at Sagarin Rankings to see where those three teams have ranked of late compared to where they ranked in a base period of 2000 thru 2010, an 11 year period. Years 2000 thru 2010 There were 241 D-1 teams in 2000 and 245 in 2010 Harvard: best ranking was #37 in 2006, worst was # 152 in 2010, median ranking was #137 Yale: Best ranking was #121 in 2007, worst was #190 in 2009, median ranking was #152 Princeton: Best ranking was #123 in 2006, worst was #229 in 2010, median ranking was #176
There were 246 teams in 2011 and 254 in 2017. So, I suppose I should adjust for that, but I did not. I could go back and look just at FCS teams but that would require more work than I want to put in right now. Harvard Ranking in D-1 (median ranking of #137 in base period) 2011= 118 2012= 153 2013= 114 2014= 95 2015= 103 2016= 198 2017=192 So, Harvard had 4 of 7 rankings that were better than its median ranking from the base period. The last two years were surprisingly bad. If I had done this (rudimentary, flawed) analysis before the 2016 season I would have concluded that Harvard had improved a lot.... Yale Ranking (median Ranking of #152 in base period) 2011= 187 2012= 236 2013= 165 2014= 156 2015= 175 2016= 219 2017= 123 Yale had one season better than its median ranking from the base period. That was last season and it could be that things are just now starting to click for our football nemesis. Dudek alone is a huge plus for the team. Princeton Ranking (median ranking of #176 in base period) 2011= 229 2012= 182 2013= 112 2014= 213 2015= 174 2016= 128 2017= 165 Princeton's ranking beat its base period median four times including the last three years. Conclusion: the jury is still out on what effect their new (what year did it start?) strategy on student financial aid will have on athlete recruiting and football success
|
|
|
Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Aug 7, 2018 16:57:24 GMT -5
The Ivies will never participate in the FCS playoff as now constituted, and there is no reason they should.
Periodically, there has been discussion (mostly by alums) of a PL-Ivy post-season game played by the conference winners.
IF, the NCAA ever decided to open a small number of FBS bowls to FCS schools, that might interest the Ivies.
In 2018-19, outside of six bowls reserved for the championship series, there are 34 other FBS bowls. This proliferation of bowls means teams with a losing record in FBS matchups almost certainly will get to a bowl. If the eight 'lowest' ranked FBS schools were replaced by the eight highest-ranked FCS schools in eight of these 34 bowls, I would think the FCS schools would jump at the opportunity, and to hell with the FCS playoffs.
|
|
|
Post by deep Purple on Aug 7, 2018 17:15:01 GMT -5
The Ivies will never participate in the FCS playoff as now constituted, and there is no reason they should. Periodically, there has been discussion (mostly by alums) of a PL-Ivy post-season game played by the conference winners. IF, the NCAA ever decided to open a small number of FBS bowls to FCS schools, that might interest the Ivies. In 2018-19, outside of six bowls reserved for the championship series, there are 34 other FBS bowls. This proliferation of bowls means teams with a losing record in FBS matchups almost certainly will get to a bowl. If the eight 'lowest' ranked FBS schools were replaced by the eight highest-ranked FCS schools in eight of these 34 bowls, I would think the FCS schools would jump at the opportunity, and to hell with the FCS playoffs. I don't think fbs conferences would allow their bowl eligible teams to be replaced by fcs schools.
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Aug 7, 2018 18:50:13 GMT -5
Those who want Ivy participation in the playoffs (including Ivy coaches and players) often point to the fact that they participate in the NCAA playoffs for every other sport. This pro-playoff argument is repeated throughout the article.
|
|
|
Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Aug 7, 2018 20:52:30 GMT -5
Those who want Ivy participation in the playoffs (including Ivy coaches and players) often point to the fact that they participate in the NCAA playoffs for every other sport. This pro-playoff argument is repeated throughout the article. Its difficult enough to get the Ivy presidents to approve an 11th regular season game; they are certainly not disposed to a playoff scheme than potentially runs through five rounds, and the majority of the rounds coinciding with first semester finals, Football is unique in the amount of pre-game preparation for the next opponent. And I think it is an open question whether other FCS schools would allow 120 man rosters with 70-80 scollie equivalents to compete in the playoff. Unlike invites to the Dance, the FCS playoffs are a losing proposition, dollar-wise.
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Aug 7, 2018 22:04:15 GMT -5
This would seem to make the most sense for Ivy and Patriot League since neither is likely to be playing for a national championship. PL may be the "lesser" sibling but both have an academic emphasis that doesn't exist much in other conferences.
|
|
|
Post by bfoley82 on Aug 8, 2018 1:12:59 GMT -5
This would seem to make the most sense for Ivy and Patriot League since neither is likely to be playing for a national championship. PL may be the "lesser" sibling but both have an academic emphasis that doesn't exist much in other conferences. Didn't Colgate lose to Delaware in the final one year? It was 2003 so a long time ago
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Aug 8, 2018 5:23:30 GMT -5
The article highlights the current financial aid for athletes and nonathletes in the Ivy League, reports on the greatly improved Ivy football quality, and suggests Ivy participation in the FCS playoffs. On this latter point, a couple of Ivy coaches point out that they had little trouble with Lehigh and Lehigh was in the playoffs so not only should the Ivy participate but that they would be competitive. Leaving aside the fact that Lehigh (5-7 for the year) itself was hardly competitive in their 59-29 opening round playoff loss to SBU wherein SBU took a knee several times, it is true that Lehigh lost to Yale 56-28 and Penn 65-47. I don't think Ivy administrators will be persuaded by the rather obvious point that the Ivy champion nowadays is certainly as good or better than some of the teams that make the playoffs - especially a few of the automatic qualifiers. More likely the idea of participating is a nonstarter regardless of the chances for success through the rounds. But, I've learned you never say never in college football - things change.
|
|
|
Post by gks on Aug 8, 2018 7:09:50 GMT -5
The Ivy could vote 7-1 to go to the playoffs but as long as Harvard lives in its own little world the Ivies will stay put. Time to move on from them. Play the New England Ivies but align ourselves athletically with the CAA. Unless you wear a fur coat and drive a 1960s MG...who cares about the Ivy League.
|
|
|
Post by deep Purple on Aug 8, 2018 7:11:45 GMT -5
Would the Ivies be willing to trim their schollie equivalents down to 63? Or would the fcs allow them to compete in the playoffs with 70-80 schollie equivalents?
|
|
|
Post by joe on Aug 8, 2018 7:59:32 GMT -5
No athletic or academic merit schollies, but lower, middle and many upper-middle class kids (athletes and non-athletes) can attend essentially for free. Yes, talent gap between HYP (at least) and PL has grown. (Cost free at HYP v full athletic schollie PL is a no brainer) Agree completely. But, as you say, the Ivies do not have schollies. No they have something far better than schollies. What should happen is that the Ivy League should just go to an official schollie model with limits and rules, and cut the hypocritical BS.
|
|
|
Post by jkh67 on Aug 8, 2018 8:56:50 GMT -5
This would seem to make the most sense for Ivy and Patriot League since neither is likely to be playing for a national championship. PL may be the "lesser" sibling but both have an academic emphasis that doesn't exist much in other conferences. I believe this was part of the discussion way back when, but nothing came of it. I don't see the Ivies ever going for it and there's little in it for the PL if it would mean foregoing the NCAA playoffs.
|
|
|
Post by jkh67 on Aug 8, 2018 9:07:37 GMT -5
The Ivy could vote 7-1 to go to the playoffs but as long as Harvard lives in its own little world the Ivies will stay put. Time to move on from them. Play the New England Ivies but align ourselves athletically with the CAA. Unless you wear a fur coat and drive a 1960s MG...who cares about the Ivy League. You don't care about the Ivy League, but emphasize that HC should continue to play the New England Ivies. Contradictory, no? I neither wear a fur coat nor drive a 1960s MG. Nor do I sport a Rudy Vallee megaphone...although I must confess to sneaking a flask into games from time to time over the years. I nevertheless have high value for maintaining as close a PL-Ivy football relationship as possible as I believe that that connection has significant (albeit non-quantifiable) general reputational benefits for the PL schools. Army and Navy do the same. The CAA just can't compare from that standpoint.
|
|
|
Post by joe on Aug 8, 2018 9:08:59 GMT -5
The whole thing is a big chess game. I believe it's complex but if the Ivies go to a schollie model, there will be greater and long-needed parity in that league and, as a whole, the league will remain a step ahead of the PL, possible slightly more so, but not because of a schollie model, which may create some snafus for them, but from enhanced recruiting from scheduling BCS games and competing nationally in the FCS playoffs.
And yes, a PL/Ivy Bowl has been discussed by many, myself included as a nice cap to the season.
|
|
|
Post by gks on Aug 8, 2018 9:20:38 GMT -5
Still like playing them in regional games but they're snobby attitude towards college football is nauseating. The only people who care if they go to the postseason are the Ivy coaches. Problem with the PL for so many years has been to try to follow the Ivy League like puppy dogs into the abyss of their football world. Ivy League could care less about the Patriot League and the PL should feel the same.
|
|
|
Post by KY Crusader 75 on Aug 8, 2018 12:26:18 GMT -5
I’d guess that many Ivy fans would look on an annual Ivy vs PL post season bowl game the same way we would look at a proposal from the NEC for an annual post season bowl game.....
|
|
|
Post by rickii on Aug 8, 2018 12:39:09 GMT -5
This would seem to make the most sense for Ivy and Patriot League since neither is likely to be playing for a national championship. PL may be the "lesser" sibling but both have an academic emphasis that doesn't exist much in other conferences. I believe this was part of the discussion way back when, but nothing came of it. I don't see the Ivies ever going for it and there's little in it for the PL if it would mean foregoing the NCAA playoffs. Specifically 1986....as briefly mentioned by both Brooks and Duffner in that years press guide.
Quickly turned out to be added gobblygook in the Colonial/Patriot League sales pitch to alums.
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Aug 8, 2018 12:46:05 GMT -5
I think an analogy might be how the NBA felt about the ABA before they merged. I also think the Ivies would be at least as excited as we are about the Turnpike Trophy.
Perhaps more seriously, the PL, while not up to Ivy academic standards, at least in their eyes, no other conference would come closer. And it might be seen as a compromise to an NCAA playoff.
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Aug 8, 2018 12:48:45 GMT -5
Of course the Ivy League has huge advantages over leagues like PL, NEC, and NESCAC. And of course they offer extraordinary financial aid to all their qualifying students (athletes and non athletes alike). Which means they can pursue excellence in several directions at once. It is also true that the PL believes it benefits from any sort of association (even if it is essentially imaginary and in a single sport) with the Ivy League.
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Aug 8, 2018 14:20:40 GMT -5
Please clarify since virtually every PL school plays virtually every sport against Ivy teams. Do you mean the benefits are "essentially imaginary?" As for "single sport," am I right to assume you mean if we played an Ivy-PL football bowl game?
Perhaps before you became a poster (maybe not), I relayed that while residing in Ohio, more than a couple of people thought that Holy Cross was an Ivy League school. Of course those same people thought THE Ohio State University was a better school than Brown University when Gordon Gee left from the former to move to the latter. I assume that's because they would often see sports scores of Holy Cross and other PL schools against the Ivies, so "guilt by association."
|
|
|
Post by bison137 on Aug 8, 2018 15:40:58 GMT -5
Would the Ivies be willing to trim their schollie equivalents down to 63? Or would the fcs allow them to compete in the playoffs with 70-80 schollie equivalents? Under NCAA rules, they could have 150 "schollie equivalents", since they don't give scholarships. As long as financial aid is given out identically to athletes and non-athletes, there is no limit as to how much need-based aid a team can be receiving.
|
|
|
Post by timholycross on Aug 8, 2018 16:45:54 GMT -5
This might be meaningful too.
Average conference home attendance 2017-2012-2007-2003
Ivy League 8229 ... 8465....9407...10279
The Ivy League has dropped over 20%. and it's clear their teams are better!
|
|