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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 2, 2018 6:05:45 GMT -5
Re: Paul Pearl. Pearl never moved his family from Wakefield. Try commuting on 128 to/from Worcester.
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Post by joe on Oct 2, 2018 6:49:11 GMT -5
We all want it all. We want HC to: 1. Have a large number of applicants for admission; 2. Give outstanding financial aid; 3. Admit students with outstanding academic credentials; 4. Successfully recruit outstanding athletes; 5. Have admissions get out of the way for our best recruits; 6. Keep the college reasonably affordable; 7. Have great facilities; 8. Win in the Patriot League while spending money on scholarships, coaches, and facilities on a sport which most of the league does not play (hockey.) 9. Compete with two schools in which every athlete (every student) is on a full scholarship. 10. For some (including me,) join Hockey East which would require an upgrade in facilities and scholarships and probably require further academic compromises. We are trying to have it all and that just might be impossible. Right. Not sure who wants all of these things. We’re kind of all over the map right now, and from what I’ve learned in the “real world,” these are the times you really need to: 1. Decide on the simplest model of who/what you want to be. 2. Eliminate anything superfluous to that mission. 3. Solicit consultation from as many experts as is realistically possible, to . . . 4. Create an action plan, with deadlines, and hold people accountable. 5. Reserve funds 2x that which is needed. 6. Document and disseminate via W/L/number of championships/academic goals/ what is defined as “success” and hold people accountable. 7. Stop making excuses TD can chime in if he’s locked into this thread. Many people know far more than I on how to run an organization, but that’s how I would do it. Can’t imagine this is the current strategy.
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Post by gks on Oct 2, 2018 7:33:21 GMT -5
Nate has a HUGE hole to dig HC athletics out of. He has to undo decades of poor, close to pathetic, institutional support for the athletic department and rebuild the enthusiasm and goodwill towards it. Has he hired good coaches? Not sure. Have heard for years about poor coaching as they come and go. In my list of priorities for Nate...getting admissions off their high horse is number 1, 2, and 3. I think he's making some inroads here but we'll see. I just see a lack of talent across the board. Teams will get lucky now and then but there is not a consistent talent base in any sport at HC. Last time this was the case was m&w hoops in the early to mid 2000s. It certainly hasn't been the case in football since Duffner.
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Post by timholycross on Oct 2, 2018 7:45:24 GMT -5
The college also places a high priority of fielding a large number of teams. IIRC, over 50 percent of enrolled students played a varsity sport in high school. That is as big a killer of athletic success at HC as anything. Resources of all types (athletes included) spread way, way, way too thin. Had I known 30-40 years ago that the College would insist in retaining this model, I would have recommended a major push to get into the NESCAC conference or the UAA. The phrase "not sustainable" comes to mind (except that would imply that their overall sports program was at some point doing well, which it wasn't).
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Post by timholycross on Oct 2, 2018 7:51:20 GMT -5
I don't think Nate Pine is placing too much of emphasis on winning based upon his record. Again, we need to have a stronger direction as a school. Making excuses like we lose because we have "student athletes" is silly. The age old question is where do we want to go? Do you want to be a pretend Ivy League school or do we want to win at the FCS/FBS level? We can't be half in one direction and half in the other. he Duffner/Rick Carter era was successful because they were a scholarship school playing non-scholarship schools T. They brought on FBS transfers like Gil Fenerty and murdered people. ODU beat Virginia Tech and has only been in existence since 2010. Obviously, they are the other extreme of lowering academic standards at all costs to win. I don't think that is the direction we want to go in, however, we need to make some concessions. If not, then we don't need to worry about records and this thread is pointless. That's a common misnomer here imo...the Carter/Duffner teams were beating both scholly and non-scholly teams during their reign. Yes, we dominated the PL teams from 1986-1991 but we were also regularly beating a lot of very good scholarship programs (UMass, UConn, William&Mary, Army, good URI teams, Delaware etc) then too. The last title in 1991, done with one scholarship class; was an incredible coaching job.
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Post by trimster on Oct 2, 2018 8:33:11 GMT -5
Assuming our admin wants to actually win (as opposed to participate in DI sports) this is just plain awful. I don't think winning is very important to the Administration at HC. Athletic participation with student athletes who do very well in the classroom is the thing. The Patriot League will be the home for HC athletics for years to come and I seriously doubt the men's hockey program will move to Hockey East.
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Post by joe on Oct 2, 2018 8:38:48 GMT -5
Assuming our admin wants to actually win (as opposed to participate in DI sports) this is just plain awful. I don't think winning is very important to the Administration at HC. Athletic participation with student athletes who do very well in the classroom is the thing. The Patriot League will be the home for HC athletics for years to come and I seriously doubt the men's hockey program will move to Hockey East. Yes and no. I can’t imagine any scenario where you can engage in a competitive endeavor without aspirations of winning. My opinion is that for decades HC has worked under the false assumption that we were somehow going to just “figure out” how to win at some point, despite putting ourselves in a virtually no-win scenario. They figure we’ll have some good teams and good seasons, win our share of big games and league titles, etc. Unfortunately there was a major underestimation in how hard even this is to achieve. Same kind of pseudo-arrogance that exists in other areas. Perhaps there are reasons (DCU etc.) but it’s totaly asinine to have a women’s hockey team in HE but not the men, nor plans to do so. What the heck? We look like morons.
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Post by lou on Oct 2, 2018 8:44:50 GMT -5
There are plans, stay tuned
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 2, 2018 8:46:02 GMT -5
Just wondering if there would be a greater student turnout at a Fitton and the Hart if fewer students were on their own teams and, like In years gone by, the student-athletes who represented your school were confined on the varsity level to 4-5 major sports?
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 2, 2018 8:52:05 GMT -5
FWIW, my understanding was when Buroughs came in as president, he wanted to move HC from the mediocrity of participation to the excellence of winning to help get the HC “brand” out there and one major reason Nate was brought in to make Luth a reality as Dick was considered not to have the capacity to accomplish that.
OK, Luth is real now. May take a few years for high caliber players to populate our sports and pay dividends on the field and court.
Clock should be ticking for all involved, Administration, Athletic staff, Coaches.
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Post by joe on Oct 2, 2018 8:53:12 GMT -5
There are plans, stay tuned What are we waiting for? Maybe they’ll even be a fan or two left when these big plans are revealed. By the way, plans for what? Hockey East?
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Post by trimster on Oct 2, 2018 9:17:34 GMT -5
HC committed to the athletic path it is on many years ago and I think it is wishful thinking to believe there will be any changes to it. Perhaps a bigger issue now is even if the college wanted to upgrade the athletic program, where would it go conference wise to do so.
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Post by gks on Oct 2, 2018 9:19:18 GMT -5
Remember UConn women went to Hockey East first then the men's team followed a few years later.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Oct 2, 2018 10:20:11 GMT -5
FWIW, my understanding was when Buroughs came in as president, he wanted to move HC from the mediocrity of participation to the excellence of winning to help get the HC “brand” out there and one major reason Nate was brought in to make Luth a reality as Dick was considered not to have the capacity to accomplish that. OK, Luth is real now. May take a few years for high caliber players to populate our sports and pay dividends on the field and court. Clock should be ticking for all involved, Administration, Athletic staff, Coaches. Burroughs claiming to want athletic success was just him saying what alums wanted to hear. He has done nothing to actually make that a reality. As was evidenced in the Crusader fiasco, he is just along for the ride. The definitive statement on Buroughs being after athletic success will come when it's time to renew Pine's contract. If Buroughs keeps Pine around despite a dismal track record in hiring coaches, showing no progress in actually improving W-L records, and not displaying any ability to work with and develop coaches, it will tell us everything we need to know about whether he is actually concerned with turning around the athletic program.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Oct 2, 2018 10:25:54 GMT -5
The college also places a high priority of fielding a large number of teams. IIRC, over 50 percent of enrolled students played a varsity sport in high school. That is as big a killer of athletic success at HC as anything. Resources of all types (athletes included) spread way, way, way too thin. Had I known 30-40 years ago that the College would insist in retaining this model, I would have recommended a major push to get into the NESCAC conference or the UAA. The phrase "not sustainable" comes to mind (except that would imply that their overall sports program was at some point doing well, which it wasn't). HC was told no by the NESCAC in the late 90’s, when the the question was asked under the Reedy administration. The NESCAC sponsors 13 men’s sports and 13 women sports. Regarding the UAA, The University Athlectic Association, the conference is of highly selective universities with the geographic footprint in Georgia, Illinois, Missouri, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, Ohio, and New York. For those that complain about the road trips to the Lehigh Valley and the DMV, for our teams, the time away and cost of the trips to Georgia (Emory) and Missouri (Wash University-St. Louis) would cause howls. The UAA footprint is almost as large as the Pac-12, (which sponsors 11 men’s sports and 13 for women). The UAA sponsors 11 men sports and 10 for women. The Patriot League sponsors 11 men sports and 13 for women. Both conferences, UAA and Colonial League came into existence in 1986. There is absolutely no overlap regarding admission.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 2, 2018 10:33:21 GMT -5
HC is not going to go Division-3. Why waste keystrokes discussing it? HC is in the PL to stay.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 2, 2018 11:30:28 GMT -5
HC is not going to go Division-3. Why waste keystrokes discussing it? HC is in the PL to stay. Suppose the PL goes D-III?
Just kidding - as our reputation as a good liberal arts college that participates in D-I sports would have to change.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 2, 2018 11:45:37 GMT -5
So how is ADNP doing at funding HC sports?
Below is a PL three school sampling; the three schools spend similar amounts in total.
Comparative spending by sport, Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross Years compared 2013-14 / 2016-17 Ranked, for 2016-17, from comparatively well-funded by HC to underfunded
W Basketball Bucknell 1295 / 1680 Colgate 1359 / 1658 Holy Cross 1483 / 1725 [HC’s advantage narrowing]
Baseball Bucknell 394 / 427 Colgate NA Holy Cross 366 / 427
Football Bucknell 3347 / 5672 Colgate 4696 / 5899 Holy Cross 4359 / 6163 (includes 600+K for Yankee stadium rental)
M's soccer Bucknell 632 / 650 Colgate 818 / 917 Holy Cross 829 / 824
M's All track combined Bucknell 605 / 595 Colgate 204 / 181 Holy Cross 257 / 463 [HC gaining in competitiveness]
M Basketball Bucknell 2051 / 2545 Colgate 1498 / 1852 Holy Cross 1919 / 2118
W's All track combined Bucknell 1083 / 1544 {>45 percent growth indicates Bucknell emphasizing this sport] Colgate 207 / 223 Holy Cross 958 / 1285
W's rowing Bucknell 481 / 855 Colgate 154 / 193 Holy Cross 437 / 675
M's ice hockey Bucknell NA Colgate 1818 / 2158 Holy Cross 1213 / 1671
Field Hockey Bucknell 604 / 1088 Colgate 700 / 553 [Less emphasis by Colgate?] Holy Cross 641 / 763 [No longer parity with Bucknell]
M's lacrosse Bucknell 632 / 675 Colgate 892 / 1121 Holy Cross 370 / 688 {Significant $ increase, but only small gain against Colgate]
W's lacrosse Bucknell 566 / 1036 Colgate 900 / 1158 Holy Cross 436 / 772 [Treading water]
Softball Bucknell 726 / 967 Colgate 707 / 962 Holy Cross 563 / 627
Volleyball Bucknell 592 / 921 Colgate 638 / 898 Holy Cross 451 / 582
W's soccer Bucknell 719 / 1153 Colgate 1049 / 1321 Holy Cross 732 / 873
W's ice hockey Bucknell NA Colgate 1423 / 1732 Holy Cross 521 / 566
M's Swimming Bucknell 619 / 726 Colgate * / 202 [* different category] Holy Cross 77 / 93
W's swimming Bucknell 903 / 1104 Colgate 440 / 390 Holy Cross 80 / 278
Other low expense sports M's rowing Bucknell NA Colgate 160 / 256 Holy Cross 319 / 282
M's Golf Bucknell 84 / 125 Colgate 119 / 169 Holy Cross 52 / 87
W's golf Bucknell 93 / 134 Colgate NA Holy Cross 42 / 58
M's tennis Bucknell 118 / 132 Colgate 153 / 146 Holy Cross 19 / 41
W's tennis Bucknell 219 / 232 Colgate 94 / 146 Holy Cross 15 / 44 _______________________ Note: Bucknell spent 713K on M/W water polo in 2016-17 Bucknell spent 1031K on wrestling in 2016-17 _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ And for giggles, total spending on M/W ice hockey 2016-17 BC $6.0M BU $5.6M HC $2.2M Merrimack $3.6M Northeastern $4.8M Providence $5.5M
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Post by timholycross on Oct 2, 2018 13:02:39 GMT -5
HC is not going to go Division-3. Why waste keystrokes discussing it? HC is in the PL to stay. Suppose the PL goes D-III?
Just kidding - as our reputation as a good liberal arts college that participates in D-I sports would have to change.
I meant way back when Fr. Brooks started HC down the Colonial/Patriot path. Not now.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 2, 2018 13:26:58 GMT -5
HC spending for selected sports in 2016-17, compared to rest of PL. Highest amount in thousands of dollars and school.
Baseball Lafayette $690, Bucknell, HC. Lehigh spend similarly M's basketball Bucknell $2544, HC 4 of 8. W's basketball Bost U $1887, HC 4 of 8 (Little spread in totals) Field Hockey Bost U $1293, HC 5 of 7 Football Fordham $7100, HC 3 of 7 (Note caveat about one-time Yankee stadium rental).. Fordham's cost as high because of NYC COLA M's lacrosse Loyola $1808, HC 6 of 7 W's lacrosse Bost U $1372, HC 7 of 8 M's soccer Loyola $1192, HC 5 of 8 W's soccer BostU $1481, HC 7 of 8 Softball Bost U $1175, HC 6 of 6 M's All Track Combined Bost U $1312, HC 4 of 7 W's All Track Combined. Bost U $2139, HC 4 of 7 Volleyball AU $1133, HC 6 of 7
Army and Navy not included.
IMO, HC should stop thinking about HE until the spending by sport is in the top half of the league for that sport.. In 2016-17, HC was in the bottom half of the league for nine of the 13 sports profiled above.
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Post by joutsHC77 on Oct 2, 2018 15:37:09 GMT -5
Not good.
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Post by thecrossisback on Oct 2, 2018 15:58:06 GMT -5
Just wondering if there would be a greater student turnout at a Fitton and the Hart if fewer students were on their own teams and, like In years gone by, the student-athletes who represented your school were confined on the varsity level to 4-5 major sports? How about a night game that everybody can go to! Night game against Umass almost had 16,000. Granted it was Umass, but what is the reason to have all five home games on a Saturday at 1? Change the time and more people will be able to go! They need try and get rid of the Ivies at Fitton field, tough opponents with small traveling fanbases. I guess the only way for a big crowd is an FCS playoff game!
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Post by bigfan on Oct 2, 2018 16:06:04 GMT -5
We need to join HE as soon as possible. Why doesn't Pine make an announcement, do we want to join or not? Why keep us hockey fans hanging?
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 2, 2018 16:17:04 GMT -5
Since we cannot presently meet the HE seating requirement, what sort of announcement are you seeking?
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Post by breezy on Oct 2, 2018 16:34:33 GMT -5
Stay tuned; be patient; have faith. The pieces are falling into place.
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