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Post by jkh67 on Nov 16, 2018 15:44:49 GMT -5
For as long as the PL continues to be a dog meat football and basketball conference, I expect.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Nov 16, 2018 15:44:57 GMT -5
How many years in a row is this thread going to be repeated? By my count about 7 fewer than we woulda, coulda, shoulda been in the Big East - and it's variant cousin, we need to be in a better league - threads. Bettah Bob.
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Post by timholycross on Nov 16, 2018 15:49:56 GMT -5
You are right but a CAA NORTH Division like they had a few years back COULD work: NORTH - UNH, MAINE, URI, HC, ALBANY, SBU (6 teams) SOUTH - NOVA, DELAWARE, TOWSON, JMU, W&M, RICHMOND, ELON (7 teams) And if JMU moves up to CUSA, the league would be even at six teams per division. Interesting piece on that jamesmadison.rivals.com/news/houston-has-zero-reservations-if-jmu-moves-to-fbs They are building a new basketball arena; neither cusa (avg 3600) or sun belt (avg 2128,slightly higher than the MAAC) offer the type of schools that will fill that. The CAA averages 2455; the PL in the 1300s.
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Post by jkh67 on Nov 16, 2018 20:11:14 GMT -5
I wonder if alums from other schools go through this continuous soul searching and self analysis. Discussions about the placement of HC football have been going on since at least the'60's to my knowledge. The complaint back in the day was that HC football was in- between without a real place suited to the school. We were too small a program to successfully rumble with the big boys Syracuse , PennState, etc. but too big to play the little Div. 2 teams. We were an independent, with no league affiliation because there was no league that offered the right fit. There was the delusional talk of joining the Ivies. So the school cobbled a mixed schedule of some bigs (Syracuse, Army, BC) with smaller teams the Ivies, Colgate, etc and Div. 2 UMass and UConn plus a game against the Quantico Marines. There was confusion. Fast forward to the '80's and the Colonial/Patriot League. Voila' our problem of proper placement was solved as we joined with other small like-minded high academic schools with the pronouncement that we were a small high academic school as a recognition that we were not suited for big time football in any meaningful way. As long as we won, most seemed reasonably pleased. While there was some grumbling about the loss of scholarships and BC most in my circle felt relieved that HC football had safely landed in the right spot at least in football.(Basketball is a different story.) Yet, in recent years here we go again, as the losing seasons pile up, one year after another, on the merry-go-round the same talk from the'60's onward about placement of HC football starts up again. Go BCS! Huh? Ya' can't be serious. Drop the sport! Maybe, some day but certainly not in the foreseeable future... An HC student writes a poorly thought out piece comparing HC to P5 schools, ignoring our current schedule and league affiliation and out of the blue calls for us to go to Div. 2. Ridiculous, but he is young. To the point... HC is placed with other similar institutions in a league which, although not perfect(see basketball and "minor" sports and there are concerns about the cost of football.), is well suited to our needs as a small, Catholic, Jesuit high academic liberal arts college. Can't we let it rest and support our school? Amen! LoveHC
For me (and I expect for some others), HC's football and especially basketball history loom large. There are very few schools of our size that can match what we have accomplished over the decades. A national force in football in the 1930s and national 1-AA champs as recently as the mid-80s. NCAA basketball champs in 1947, a national power from then through the 1950s, NCAA champs in 1954 (when that meant a lot), home to the likes of Cousy, Heisohn, Palazzi and Foley from then through the early '60s, and then the renaissance under players like Potter, Vicens, Dee, and Perry in the 1980's... HC being ranked in SI's pre-season top 10 one of those years. And leave us not forget the 1953 NCAA baseball championship with Ron Perry, Sr. That's a glorious athletic tradition for a small Catholic college, but one that haunts us now. We continue to search...however futilely...for the path that will lead us back to at least some of those heights. That hope is likely hopelessly far fetched, but it's clear that the PL will never take us there. Thus the repeated frustration with the status quo.
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Post by Xmassader on Nov 16, 2018 20:37:18 GMT -5
jkh You’re right that it’s far-fetched with the current administration/trustees and that has been the case since the late ‘70s. However it is not far fetched if TPTB showed the institutional will to have HC’s athletic teams live up to the school’s motto—“A Commitment to Excellence”. Events of the last week in men’s hoops-competitive games with Michigan and Providence, tonight’s win vs. SBU and the signing of 3 quality recruits-have given us a glimmer of what could be accomplished if we were in a multiple NCAA bid league with a much greater ability to recruit and to play a majority of OOC games at home. On court results of the last 10 yrs. plus the “settling down” of league re-shuffling in the last 2-3 yrs. have made that kind of league shift less likely...but not impossible if TPTB made that their goal. Unfortunately, it seems that they think the school’s motto, at least athletically, is “A Commitment to Participation”😏
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Post by deep Purple on Nov 17, 2018 12:30:03 GMT -5
How about a new football only fbs conference? The Yankee Conference part II
Current fbs independents UMass Army Liberty
Current fcs HC Delaware? James Madison? New Hampshire? Villanova?
Navy could then leave AAC west. (I can't imagine they like being there)
UConn could go back to the big east and have a football only conference to play in. (Would they pefer the big east to the AAC?)
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Post by hc87 on Nov 17, 2018 14:39:33 GMT -5
What a bizarre game this has been....the GTown O has done almost nothing and they have 31 points
Army 21 Colgate 14 mid 4th
Wrong thread sorry
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Post by Xmassader on Nov 17, 2018 18:46:52 GMT -5
mm67–True enough, winning in the PL is better than losing in the PL and, perhaps, it might decrease the # of posters talking about a league change but, as many have posted in the past, there are those among us who continue to hope that, at some point in the future, HC will gain entry into a multiple NCAA bid league for hoops (e.g. Big East or A-10) along with continuing scholarship football and I would suggest that the ranks of the disgruntled won’t be substantially reduced until that happens (if ever).
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Post by timholycross on Nov 18, 2018 8:27:50 GMT -5
mm67–True enough, winning in the PL is better than losing in the PL and, perhaps, it might decrease the # of posters talking about a league change but, as many have posted in the past, there are those among us who continue to hope that, at some point in the future, HC will gain entry into a multiple NCAA bid league for hoops (e.g. Big East or A-10) along with continuing scholarship football and I would suggest that the ranks of the disgruntled won’t be substantially reduced until that happens (if ever). Don't forget Xmassader, after that those teams have to WIN a lot for the disgruntled to go away! There were complainers in the Potter-Vicens-Perry era, just no internet.
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Post by deep Purple on Nov 18, 2018 13:15:03 GMT -5
Colgate gets a bye in the playoffs. They play the winner of James Madison vs Delaware.
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Post by JRGNYR on Nov 20, 2018 14:18:21 GMT -5
How about a new football only fbs conference? The Yankee Conference part II Current fbs independents UMass Army Liberty Current fcs HC Delaware? James Madison? New Hampshire? Villanova? Navy could then leave AAC west. (I can't imagine they like being there) UConn could go back to the big east and have a football only conference to play in. (Would they pefer the big east to the AAC?) I like the aggressiveness of the idea, but the reality is there's a laundry list of reasons why this could never happen.
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Post by rickii on Nov 20, 2018 16:28:59 GMT -5
We have five options for the football program: 1. Move from the FCS to the FBS level. Not viable for a variety of obvious reasons. 2. Drop down to Division III. Certainly possible, but not an appealing prospect for a school with a long Division I football tradition and close athletic associations with FCS schools that would likely start to disappear from the schedule. 3. Drop football entirely. There is some logic to this, especially from the financial standpoint. I could see it happening in 5 years or so if the program doesn't do significantly better under Chesney. 4. Keep muddling along in the PL, regardless of league quality or how well HC does in it. The most likely outcome for a number of reasons, unless program financial cost becomes outcome determinative. 5. Join the CAA in football. Probably the best outcome from a purely football standpoint. But, among other things, it assumes that the CAA would be interested in having HC as a member. I'd like to think that the college administration is thinking seriously about its long-term strategy for football. But who knows? Maybe we should ask Mr. and Mrs. Luth what they think, eh ?
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Post by deep Purple on Nov 21, 2018 21:22:32 GMT -5
How about a new football only fbs conference? The Yankee Conference part II Current fbs independents UMass Army Liberty Current fcs HC Delaware? James Madison? New Hampshire? Villanova? Navy could then leave AAC west. (I can't imagine they like being there) UConn could go back to the big east and have a football only conference to play in. (Would they pefer the big east to the AAC?) I like the aggressiveness of the idea, but the reality is there's a laundry list of reasons why this could never happen. Yeah, I know. Just having fun with the thread.
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Post by rf1 on Nov 22, 2018 12:22:20 GMT -5
Wasn't there a New England Conference at one time, called the Yankee Conference? And? LoveHC That conference still exists today. The Yankee Conference began playing under the Atlantic 10 banner in 1997. The A-10 started playing under a CAA banner in 2006.
Half its charter members have however departed it and it now bears little resemblance to what it once was.
Holy Cross was a member of Yankee Conference football for one season (1971).
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Post by timholycross on Nov 22, 2018 14:21:19 GMT -5
Well in the sense that HC should be trying like hell to win the PL in every sport it reasonably can (I'll leave it to the interested reader to come up with a list of those sports), mm67 is absolutely correct.
No reason to wait for some other opportunity to come along, there may not be one that fits and/or the entire landscape of college sports could change dramatically in a generation. Build programs from the platform you have now, the other stuff will sort it self out at some point down the road.
I exclude hockey from this post as it's not a Patriot League sport, that's another issue for another time and post.
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Post by lehighowl on Nov 22, 2018 15:10:44 GMT -5
I'm one of those PL fans that enjoys following other schools. I've been able to help out with the AGS stuff as a result. LFN does a great job as well. I really don't venture onto other folks boards to post but this thread caught my attention.
Despite Colgate's run this season the PL overall has a clear competitive issue relative to the top conferences in FCS. Colgate's team this season (who is very good) is not an anomaly based on the league's history. In the last decade Fordham had a similar squad in 2013, Lehigh in 2011 and Holy Cross in 2009. Those teams were all loaded with talented junior and senior classes. I know 2011 Lehigh had several key 5th year guys. The other thing they all had in common was the unfortunate luck of running into either the eventual national champ ('09 Nova, '11 NDSU) or eventual runner-up ('13 Towson) on the road. Had the paths been different I think all 3 PL teams would have advanced further. Lehigh also had to deal with the Spadola twitter gate scandel/suspension. There have been some other quality PL teams that fared well on the national stage but weren't true threats. '10 Lehigh, '14 Fordham and '15 Colgate come to mind. So the point is, the PL has proven more than capable of producing elite or nationally viable FCS teams despite the idiotic restrictions.
The biggest hurdle remains institutional apathy at certain schools. Every conference obviously has a varying degree of commitment for each sport from its members. But there's still a certain level one must maintain. Indiana will never be all in like Ohio State in football but they still throw money at a losing product just to show a level of caring. The Kansas State's and Northwestern's of the 80's would never exist in today's college football landscape. K-State was offering something like 40 scholarships when Snyder took over. Temple tried to get by with the bare minimum in the Big East and they eventually got run out of town. That was when T.V deals and conference realignment talks were gaining traction. The PL now is filled with too many 80's K-State's and 1990's Temple's who are literally just fielding teams to participate due to administrations that have failed the programs. Bucknell and Lafayette are nearing the point of being completely hapless. The self imposed 5th year restriction the BU administration has placed on Bison football are absurd. Then there's the lack of history and living in the Penn State shadow. Susan would be out the door at the vast majority of FCS schools by now. To be fair, hanging on to coaches too long seems to be a PL hallmark. Lafayette athletics as a whole remains a losing proposition but football gets the most attention.The 'Pards seem destined to close out the 2010's without a single winning season. Given their facilities and recruiting footprint it takes "work" to pull off such an "accomplishment". At least Georgetown is upgrading their facility and have enough returning players to be optimistic into 2019. A proper need base model with institutional support can be successful in FCS. The old PL proved that while San Diego continues to.
The league has posted back-2-back seasons with only one team, Colgate, managing a winning record. That alone is beyond embarrassing. The Raiders are without question going to take a step back next year. They'll still be good so long as Hunt returns but the 'Gate likely won't be carrying the torch on a national level. So who can step up to give the PL legitimacy? Holy Cross seems next in line but the Crusaders have to survive a brutal OOC schedule. Chesney needs a winning record to build some momentum. I think he's a great coach that will give Crusader fans at least one legit run before he moves on. It's just tough to see it being 2019. After that things look pretty bleak. Fordham will get better under Conlin but it might take another year or two. Breiner appeared to be asleep on the job. The Ram program has a solid history of success dating back to Clawson's 2001 turnaround season.
I do believe there will be an announcement regarding Coen early next week. Might be slightly biased but Lehigh will get turned around promptly so long as Sterrett handles the coaching situation properly. The program has an excellent track record of success dating back to the early 70's. There remains higher aspirations than PL titles and beating Lafayette in Bethlehem.
In order to have a league that's deeper the schools must expand the roster sizes and try to figure out how to add redshirts in a manner that works for all schools. If Bucknell or Lafayette or Holy Cross or Georgetown don't believe in redshirts and/or larger rosters so be it. It's their choice but don't let them limit the other program's potential. Until this happens the league will continue to lack depth. When a team comes along like Colgate it's hard to gain the respect they deserve.
There's no doubt following PL football in the scholarship era has become extremely frustrating and honestly, embarrassing. Hopefully there's enough tweaking that can be done to at least give those who want a high ceiling a fighting chance. Historically, Colgate, Fordham and Lehigh have been the progressive forces when it comes to football.
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Post by rgs318 on Nov 22, 2018 21:26:10 GMT -5
Lehighowl, you give interested folks plenty to think about. Thank you.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Nov 22, 2018 22:34:10 GMT -5
Excellent post owl.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 23, 2018 8:24:53 GMT -5
That conference still exists today. The Yankee Conference began playing under the Atlantic 10 banner in 1997. The A-10 started playing under a CAA banner in 2006.
Half its charter members have however departed it and it now bears little resemblance to what it once was.
Holy Cross was a member of Yankee Conference football for one season (1971).
Very interesting, I did not know that. I thought all the New England YanCon schools except for Boston U. were D-II before the I-A/I-AA split.
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Post by hc87 on Nov 23, 2018 14:43:53 GMT -5
Half its charter members have however departed it and it now bears little resemblance to what it once was.
Holy Cross was a member of Yankee Conference football for one season (1971).
Very interesting, I did not know that. I thought all the New England YanCon schools except for Boston U. were D-II before the I-A/I-AA split. The timing is kind of tricky if you didn't live through it etc....not 100% sure, but I believe in 1971 NCAA football schools were still only broken down by "University" division (which Ironically we were in) and "College" division (today's D2 and D3). In 1972, after our quick foray into the YC, the NCAA broke it down into D1,2 and 3. We were designated D1 and the YC schools were D2. The YC became 1-AA in 1978, we joined 1-AA in 1982.
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Post by timholycross on Nov 23, 2018 15:52:41 GMT -5
Holy Cross was in the YC in 1971...by 1973 they were not in it and what looks like 2 years was more like a year and a half.
Nothing really got sorted out, especially in football where the schedules are a couple years ahead of time. HC was playing BU, UMass and UConn annually anyways so it was hard to tell in football if anything changed. In hoop, there were a few extra games with YC teams in 1972-73 and 1973-74 but by 1974-75 they had been eliminated. For sure in that time frame, HC never played Maine or Vermont.
I think HC did play some minor sports games vs YC teams,but those seemed to prove HC was out of its league at the time.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Nov 24, 2018 21:33:45 GMT -5
This is an interesting conversation, much like one I've been following over at the Rice University board.
Even moreso than HC, Rice is the school that got left behind. Just over twenty years ago, Rice played in the Southwest Conference and could literally schedule seven or eight games a year that were either at home or within four hours of the campus. Rice wasn't very good but when teams like Texas, Texas A&M, TCU, Baylor, etc. came to town, its enormous 72,000 seat stadium could be at or near capacity. It's marooned in Conference USA, a collection of forgotten I-A and upgraded I-AA teams that stretches from El Paso to Norfolk. Their question, much like many of these-- is the current placement of the program a sustainable place for its future?
Obviously, Worcester is not Houston, though if JFK had spoken at Fitton Field instead of Rice Stadium in 1962, his famous speech about the space race would have been an easy change. ("But why, some say, the Moon? Why choose this as our goal? Why does Holy Cross play BC?") But both schools are small, selective, and aren't meeting expectations with what their football program was. Selling out Fitton Field with PL schools is about as likely as Rice filling its stadium with C-USA schools like Old Dominion or UAB. So is it scheduling, conference alignments, or something more?
I think there are six types of football programs:
1. Definitional: Football defines the perception of the school and is essential to its brand (Notre Dame, Penn State, Grambling, North Dakota State, etc.)
2. Elevational: Football is a means to elevate the perception of the school and is additive to its national rankings (Boston College, Miami, TCU, James Madison, etc.)
3. Aspirational: Football is a means to associate the college with higher regarded peers and build its brand as a result (Central Florida, Liberty, Appalachian State, Stony Brook, Elon, etc.)
4. Strategic: Football does not affect the general rankings of the school but when managed successfully can serve as a means to further position its brand as part of a dynamic educational experience (Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Villanova, William & Mary)
5. Non-Strategic: Football does not affect the general rankings of the school and is not effectively managed to enhance or position its brand as part of a dynamic educational experience (Buffalo, UMass, Howard, Drake)
6. Vestigial: Football is seen more as a relic of its past than a platform for future engagement with a local or national audience. (Rutgers, the Ivies, Davidson)
Before HC wants to tear up the PL or recreate the Yankee Conference, it needs to decide what kind of role football plays in the future. Certainly, no one expects the first thing people think when they hear "Holy Cross" in 2030 is "Football!", but there is a big difference between a program that fundamentally elevates the college versus a program which people would rather forget altogether. Rice is asking these kinds of questions. I think most of the PL should, but aren't.
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Post by hc87 on Nov 24, 2018 21:58:19 GMT -5
I think we can be strategically vestigial
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Post by thecrossisback on Nov 24, 2018 22:24:53 GMT -5
Watched a lot of the so called rivalry games today, Most were blowouts, another reason, I think the BC rivalry should be continued. Why does BC continue to play Umass, blow them out and get a smaller crowd than when they play Holy Cross?
Also HC has to call up Umass and start scheduling them. Would draw well.
As for FCS, fine, start to win the PL, compete in the playoffs and then move up.
UTEP is FBS, they play in a 51,000 seat stadium and their attendance is 17,271 19,412 12,809 10,787 9,690 14,962
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Nov 24, 2018 22:50:07 GMT -5
Watched a lot of the so called rivalry games today, Most were blowouts, another reason, I think the BC rivalry should be continued. Why does BC continue to play Umass, blow them out and get a smaller crowd than when they play Holy Cross? Also HC has to call up Umass and start scheduling them. Would draw well. As for FCS, fine, start to win the PL, compete in the playoffs and then move up.
UTEP is FBS, they play in a 51,000 seat stadium and their attendance is 17,271 19,412 12,809 10,787 9,690 14,962 Move up to where - 1A? You're joking right?
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