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Post by southernsader on Dec 6, 2018 1:56:53 GMT -5
141 - HOLY CROSS
142 - Lehigh
165 - Colgate
177 - American
179 - Bucknell
185 - BU
266 - Army
307 - Navy
309 - Loyola
316 - Lafayette
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 6, 2018 9:00:11 GMT -5
141 - HOLY CROSS +149 vs LY end of season 142 - Lehigh +83165 - Colgate +37177 - American +151179 - Bucknell (82)185 - BU +73266 - Army (2)307 - Navy (82)309 - Loyola +14316 - Lafayette (41)182 -Median +79 versus LY end of season |
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Post by WorcesterGray on Dec 13, 2019 7:44:42 GMT -5
141 - HOLY CROSS 142 - Lehigh 165 - Colgate 177 - American 179 - Bucknell 185 - BU 266 - Army 307 - Navy 309 - Loyola 316 - Lafayette Dec 13 2019
139 - Colgate 189 - Loyola
192 - Lafayette
209 - Bucknell
212 - American 238 - BU 248 - Lehigh 274 - Navy
279 - Army
325 - Holy Cross
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 13, 2019 12:27:55 GMT -5
The higher the number the better, right?   First to last? That's a Sean Kearney kind of movement isn't it. (I will trademark this phrase: "Sean Kearney move" Definition: 1. Going from first to last in any endeavor; 2. Seriously underperforming well beyond expectations). |
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Post by hchoops on Dec 13, 2019 13:06:51 GMT -5
Well, the first rating was from very early last season, Dec 6., certainly, even according to Kenpom, much too early to be a reliable gauge to the team’s level of play.(6-3 record with losses to .Michigan, PC and Harvard)
We all know all too well how the season ended, though our final Kenpom rank was 239., 6th in the PL
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 13, 2019 13:14:13 GMT -5
The higher the number the better, right? First to last? That's a Sean Kearney kind of movement isn't it. (I will trademark this phrase: "Sean Kearney move" Definition: 1. Going from first to last in any endeavor; 2. Seriously underperforming well beyond expectations). Believe it or not the last HC coach to go from 1st to last was Ralph Willard. 2006-2007 Patriot League Champions 2007-2008 8th place out of 8 |
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 13, 2019 13:34:56 GMT -5
Yeah, but Ralph had some championships whereas Sean's one at-bat was a swing and a miss and was pre-season pick to win the PL. A "Ralph Willard move" doesn't have the same ring to it.
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Post by hceconhist on Dec 13, 2019 13:48:14 GMT -5
The higher the number the better, right? First to last? That's a Sean Kearney kind of movement isn't it. (I will trademark this phrase: "Sean Kearney move" Definition: 1. Going from first to last in any endeavor; 2. Seriously underperforming well beyond expectations). Not to fully open a can of worms, but in the Kearney year KenPom ranked us at 235 (way ahead of where we are now) and we were only 4 points from the PL Championship game. |
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 13, 2019 14:12:10 GMT -5
Kearney's one season, at the time, was the worst in HC Mens Basketball history.
Of course, that level of futility has since been surpassed. Multiple times.
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Post by bison137 on Dec 13, 2019 14:22:03 GMT -5
Kearney's one season, at the time, was the worst in HC Mens Basketball history. Of course, that level of futility has since been surpassed. Multiple times. It may have seemed like the worst because expectations were high. But all of the computer models say 1996-97, 1997-98, 1998-99, and 1999-00 were all worse. The first three much worse. |
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 13, 2019 14:28:45 GMT -5
Kearney's one season, at the time, was the worst in HC Mens Basketball history. Of course, that level of futility has since been surpassed. Multiple times. It may have seemed like the worst because expectations were high. But all of the computer models say 1996-97, 1997-98, 1998-99, and 1999-00 were all worse. The first three much worse. By W-L record or overall ranking? I remember at the time, it was stated that the Kearney year was the worst overall W-L in school history. I could see those 90's teams being worse in actuality because the league was so bad back then. |
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Post by hceconhist on Dec 13, 2019 15:08:32 GMT -5
By our ranking, compared to our competitors, which is what ultimately matters (especially in the PL). We are, statistically, one of the worst teams in DI right now. Under Kearney, we were nowhere close to that.
As bison137 asserted, it seemed like the worst because expectations were so high going into that year. Why we fell short, and we certainly did, is another discussion for another time (including whether such expectations were even warranted to begin with).
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Post by bison137 on Dec 13, 2019 15:40:30 GMT -5
It may have seemed like the worst because expectations were high. But all of the computer models say 1996-97, 1997-98, 1998-99, and 1999-00 were all worse. The first three much worse. By W-L record or overall ranking? I remember at the time, it was stated that the Kearney year was the worst overall W-L in school history. I could see those 90's teams being worse in actuality because the league was so bad back then. Significantly worse by overall ranking (Sagarin, Sports-Reference.com, etc). Also worse PL record, despite the PL being weaker then due to having no scholarships. |
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 13, 2019 15:43:39 GMT -5
I was a senior at HC for the Kearney campaign. Expectations were high for following reasons:
- we were PL runner-up the year prior, losing to a senior-laden American team.
- we returned two of the top PL frosh from year prior, RJ Rvans and Devin Brown
- the emergence of Andrew Keister down low in 08-09. He really broke through midway through his junior / redshirt soph year, whatever you want to call it.
- the pending eligibility of St. John's transfer Mike Cavataio, who was widely reported the year prior to be our best player in practice
- an incoming freshmen class with solid size, including Phil Beans and Eric Obeysekere
- return of pretty serviceable role players in Meister and Beinert.
Needless to say, the league was taken over by this CJ McCollum guy that year. He turned out to be pretty good. Also IIRC, Evans was hurt much of that season, which would ultimately earn him the red shirt he used to play at UCONN as a grad student.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 13, 2019 15:58:51 GMT -5
bison137:
Yes, that's what I said:
No question that a record-shattering loss to Northeastern followed shortly by a loss to a mediocre D-3 team is objectively worse but our expectations were far lower this season.
The last RW team in '08-'09 went 18-14 and the '09-'10 team which we thought would be under RW was, if memory serves, expected to be PL champs or at minimum pre-season in contention for a championship. That '09-'10 team had Devin Brown, RJ Evans, Andrew Beinert, Andrew Keister, Eric Meister, Phil Beans, Adam May and finally was going to have the services of St. John's transfer, Mike Cavataio.
SK 's record was 9-22 taking a much more experienced team and cutting the number of wins in half from the prior season. That's "A Sean Kearney Move."
[Edit: 2010 types faster than I do!]
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Post by Tom on Dec 13, 2019 16:11:45 GMT -5
bison137: Yes, that's what I said: No question that a record-shattering loss to Northeastern followed shortly by a loss to a mediocre D-3 team is objectively worse but our expectations were far lower this season. The last RW team in '08-'09 went 18-14 and the '09-'10 team which we thought would be under RW was, if memory serves, expected to be PL champs or at minimum pre-season in contention for a championship. That '09-'10 team had Devin Brown, RJ Evans, Andrew Beinert, Andrew Keister, Eric Meister, Phil Beans, Adam May and finally was going to have the services of St. John's transfer, Mike Cavataio. SK 's record was 9-22 taking a much more experienced team and cutting the number of wins in half from the prior season. That's "A Sean Kearney Move." [Edit: 2010 types faster than I do!] Conspiracy theorists think there would have been fewer than 9 wins were it not for a late season coup |
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 13, 2019 16:15:21 GMT -5
Yep, I was close enough to hear those stories. And from too many sources not to have at least an element of truth.
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Post by hceconhist on Dec 13, 2019 16:25:28 GMT -5
I was a senior at HC for the Kearney campaign. Expectations were high for following reasons: - we were PL runner-up the year prior, losing to a senior-laden American team. - we returned two of the top PL frosh from year prior, RJ Rvans and Devin Brown - the emergence of Andrew Keister down low in 08-09. He really broke through midway through his junior / redshirt soph year, whatever you want to call it. - the pending eligibility of St. John's transfer Mike Cavataio, who was widely reported the year prior to be our best player in practice - an incoming freshmen class with solid size, including Phil Beans and Eric Obeysekere - return of pretty serviceable role players in Meister and Beinert. Needless to say, the league was taken over by this CJ McCollum guy that year. He turned out to be pretty good. Also IIRC, Evans was hurt much of that season, which would ultimately earn him the red shirt he used to play at UCONN as a grad student. I am fairly certain RJ's injury year was the 2010-2011 campaign, Coach Brown's first year. Phil Beans was hurt for much of that season as well. Expectations for the 2009-2010 season were high mainly because the previous year's team peaked at the right time (for many of the reasons you mentioned above). However, those expectations did not take into account the fact that the AD hired a new coach who had a completely different system in mind (that's not on Kearney), sophomore slumps are real, and freshmen performance can be very unpredictable. FWIW, if his only recruiting class was any indication, the roster's talent level would have remained or even increased throughout his coaching tenure. I am certainly not saying that 2010 was not a disappointment: it was. However, it was certainly not the worst year in HC bball history. |
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Dec 13, 2019 16:26:48 GMT -5
The Mike Brey coaching tree.....
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Dec 13, 2019 16:29:13 GMT -5
Someone's going to hit me with Delaware this year.
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Post by hceconhist on Dec 13, 2019 16:38:23 GMT -5
bison137: Yes, that's what I said: No question that a record-shattering loss to Northeastern followed shortly by a loss to a mediocre D-3 team is objectively worse but our expectations were far lower this season. The last RW team in '08-'09 went 18-14 and the '09-'10 team which we thought would be under RW was, if memory serves, expected to be PL champs or at minimum pre-season in contention for a championship. That '09-'10 team had Devin Brown, RJ Evans, Andrew Beinert, Andrew Keister, Eric Meister, Phil Beans, Adam May and finally was going to have the services of St. John's transfer, Mike Cavataio. SK 's record was 9-22 taking a much more experienced team and cutting the number of wins in half from the prior season. That's "A Sean Kearney Move." [Edit: 2010 types faster than I do!] But we did not finish last by any measure. Again, we were four points away from going to the PLC game. If 2015-2016 is classified as a "success" because we won the games that ultimately mattered, 2009-2010 is by no means a flop (which is exactly what you are implying). |
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 13, 2019 17:01:50 GMT -5
OK, Sean, I get it but you could have at least used a different Crossports alias.
I am not just implying, I am clearly stating, that the Sean Kearney one and only Holy Cross team fell far short of expectations and, as Tom alluded to, the end of season improvement was rumored (sources coming from multiple players) was despite Coach Kearney not because of Coach Kearney. That he was terminated after one season certainly implies that 1. the players were indeed in revolt (as the football team was with Tom Boisture in the late 60's) or 2. it was not perceived by TPTB that he was going to turn the team into a winner.
I did not describe the '15-'16 as a "success." But, if your point was going to be the '17-'18 season also qualified as "well short of expectations," you'd have my total support. Winning the PL tournament certainly raised expectations as it looked like the team was gelling under Carmody but that was a chimera.
For the record, I met coach Kearney a number of times and I really liked him. Very personable and easy to talk to, unlike his predecessor, but he was not a successful coach. At least not at Holy Cross.
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Post by hceconhist on Dec 13, 2019 18:09:22 GMT -5
OK, Sean, I get it but you could have at least used a different Crossports alias. I am not just implying, I am clearly stating, that the Sean Kearney one and only Holy Cross team fell far short of expectations and, as Tom alluded to, the end of season improvement was rumored (sources coming from multiple players) was despite Coach Kearney not because of Coach Kearney. That he was terminated after one season certainly implies that 1. the players were indeed in revolt (as the football team was with Tom Boisture in the late 60's) or 2. it was not perceived by TPTB that he was going to turn the team into a winner. I did not describe the '15-'16 as a "success." But, if your point was going to be the '17-'18 season also qualified as "well short of expectations," you'd have my total support. Winning the PL tournament certainly raised expectations as it looked like the team was gelling under Carmody but that was a chimera. For the record, I met coach Kearney a number of times and I really liked him. Very personable and easy to talk to, unlike his predecessor, but he was not a successful coach. At least not at Holy Cross. My alias refers to my HC majors  2010 was surely a disappointment; and it was a classic "perfect storm." Regarding the players and the often discussed "coup": don't you think they had a vested interest in ensuring that the relevant stakeholders (e.g., Dick Regan, Fr. McFarland, the Board, the boosters, the general alumni, and the student body) believed that other people, rather than themselves, were to blame? |
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 13, 2019 18:11:32 GMT -5
With Kearney we also had the recognition that he didn't have the foggiest idea how to coach a team. I do recall that one thing he did well--likely lifted whole from Notre Dame play book--was inbounds plays. Everything else, X's & O's wise--was abysmally inept.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 13, 2019 18:19:56 GMT -5
hceconhist, not sure you've been on here long enough to "get" my perspective in life . . . . at least life on Crossports. I figured your pen name as you should easily be able to figure mine. What you've posted is pretty much on target and it seems at least on Crossports the Holy Cross faithful are ever-optimists and our expression here of "looking at life through purple-tinted glasses" definitely colors our views and expectations setting us up for athletic disappointments. Yes, arguably the season after the magic post season run in Carmody's first year led to extreme disappointment the next year. Maybe even more than the Kearney season. After all, we were defending PL champs and won a first 4 game in the NCAAs under Carmody. Merry Christmas! P.S. At least your 2nd major was a good one! I'm sure you listed them alphabetically.  |
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