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Post by thecrossisback on Jan 5, 2019 23:06:21 GMT -5
As a player Hodges batted 273. This Veterans Committee is a joke. Harold Baines? Bill Mazeroski? ? I am even a PIRATES FAN. Mazeroski batted 260 wth 138 home runs. They should just put everybody in. It's such a joke, they are ruining the Hall of Fame. The Hall of Fame should not be for the very good. IT should be for the GREATS of the game!
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Post by hchoops on Jan 5, 2019 23:15:12 GMT -5
War- 44.9 Ops-.846 Ops+ -120
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 5, 2019 23:25:35 GMT -5
Mazeroski provided my first sports memory, a painful one, of him hitting the home run to win the 1960 World Series--watched it on TV and I remember the fans coming out of the stands onto the field. He was a tremendous fielder--incredibly fast hands turning the DP and great range with a sure glove-- but his offense was woeful: I believe (can easily look it up but I want to test my memory) he may be the only HOF batter with an OBP under .300. That he is in the Hall of Fame while Bobby Grich is not is just a travesty.
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Post by hchoops on Jan 5, 2019 23:29:52 GMT -5
You were a Yan.. fan living in Maine ? That was a happy day for this Yan... hater Hodges OBP- .359
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Post by hcpride on Jan 6, 2019 7:13:20 GMT -5
Forget the military What about the best fielder of his era and the Mets huge upset of the Orioles in ‘69 ? ( i was at the last game) Folks who argue his hitting stats were not up to snuff (not saying I agree) sometimes forget (or don't know) he missed 3-4 years in the war. Especially when they are contrasting with teammate Duke Snider who hit the 'magic' 400 (407) and 2,000 (2,116) while Gil (370 HR , 1921 hits did not)...and eventually got in the Hall of Fame in 1980. I am not suggesting hitting 400 home runs was the only reason Snider or some other players of that era got in, but everyone who hit 400 in that era is in the Hall of Fame. (BTW Snider got his 2,000th hit and 400th HR while playing for the Mets near the end of his career.) I am also not saying this is the only reason Gil should get in. Of course missing years for military service is ordinarily taken into consideration, here is the opening paragraph on Ralph Kiner (HOF slugger from that precise era who hit 'just' 369 HR's) at baseball-reference.com: Ralph Kiner, a member of the Hall of Fame, was the National League home run champion in each of his first seven seasons in the major leagues. He missed close to three full seasons to service in World War II, thus reducing his career statistics. The years Kiner missed, BTW, were prior to his first major league appearance. I am not saying Kiner and Gil Hodges had equal home run power.
Gil may have been the best player at his position in the major leagues for about 10 years (that is often a Hall of Fame metric). Beyond the strong hitting, his fielding was superb (won the first 3 Gold Gloves....Gold Gloves not awarded earlier than that including for 5 of his previous all-star season). First Baseman Keith Hernandez (who won 11 Gold Gloves and was a very good hitter [2182 hits and but only 162 HR's] is not in the Hall of Fame so I think a first basemen needs exceptional hitting numbers (beyond great fielding] for his era which is a second reason I bring up Gil's war years. On top of that (and to the extent voters add manager accomplishments to player accomplishments), he won a World Series by turning around a perennial (though loveable) loser.
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 6, 2019 7:32:22 GMT -5
As a Yankee fan, Gil was "annoying" with his smooth play. He was a pleasure to watch on the field and was the top player at his position for the better part of a decade. Also, he took a club that was the laughing stock of MLB and made them World Series Champions (with 100 wins in regular and post-season). That alone should put him in the HOF. He was also a classy guy who set a good sportsmanship example for others.
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Post by hchoops on Jan 6, 2019 8:57:10 GMT -5
Forget the military What about the best fielder of his era and the Mets huge upset of the Orioles in ‘69 ? ( i was at the last game) Folks who argue his hitting stats were not up to snuff (not saying I agree) sometimes forget (or don't know) he missed 3-4 years in the war. Especially when they are contrasting with teammate Duke Snider who hit the 'magic' 400 (407) and 2,000 (2,116) while Gil (370 HR , 1921 hits did not)...and eventually got in the Hall of Fame in 1980. I am not suggesting hitting 400 home runs was the only reason Snider or some other players of that era got in, but everyone who hit 400 in that era is in the Hall of Fame. (BTW Snider got his 2,000th hit and 400th HR while playing for the Mets near the end of his career.) I am also not saying this is the only reason Gil should get in. Of course missing years for military service is ordinarily taken into consideration, here is the opening paragraph on Ralph Kiner (HOF slugger from that precise era who hit 'just' 369 HR's) at baseball-reference.com: Ralph Kiner, a member of the Hall of Fame, was the National League home run champion in each of his first seven seasons in the major leagues. He missed close to three full seasons to service in World War II, thus reducing his career statistics. The years Kiner missed, BTW, were prior to his first major league appearance. I am not saying Kiner and Gil Hodges had equal home run power.
Gil may have been the best player at his position in the major leagues for about 10 years (that is often a Hall of Fame metric). Beyond the strong hitting, his fielding was superb (won the first 3 Gold Gloves....Gold Gloves not awarded earlier than that including for 5 of his previous all-star season). First Baseman Keith Hernandez (who won 11 Gold Gloves and was a very good hitter [2182 hits and but only 162 HR's] is not in the Hall of Fame so I think a first basemen needs exceptional hitting numbers (beyond great fielding] for his era which is a second reason I bring up Gil's war years. On top of that (and to the extent voters add manager accomplishments to player accomplishments), he won a World Series by turning around a perennial (though loveable) loser. I believe that almost all the younger voters and some/many of the older ones are focusing more on advanced stats, OPS, WAR, WAR+, than the traditional average, HRs or RBIs.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 6, 2019 10:26:52 GMT -5
Forget the military What about the best fielder of his era and the Mets huge upset of the Orioles in ‘69 ? ( i was at the last game) Folks who argue his hitting stats were not up to snuff (not saying I agree) sometimes forget (or don't know) he missed 3-4 years in the war. Especially when they are contrasting with teammate Duke Snider who hit the 'magic' 400 (407) and 2,000 (2,116) while Gil (370 HR , 1921 hits did not)...and eventually got in the Hall of Fame in 1980. I am not suggesting hitting 400 home runs was the only reason Snider or some other players of that era got in, but everyone who hit 400 in that era is in the Hall of Fame. (BTW Snider got his 2,000th hit and 400th HR while playing for the Mets near the end of his career.) I am also not saying this is the only reason Gil should get in. Of course missing years for military service is ordinarily taken into consideration, here is the opening paragraph on Ralph Kiner (HOF slugger from that precise era who hit 'just' 369 HR's) at baseball-reference.com: Ralph Kiner, a member of the Hall of Fame, was the National League home run champion in each of his first seven seasons in the major leagues. He missed close to three full seasons to service in World War II, thus reducing his career statistics. The years Kiner missed, BTW, were prior to his first major league appearance. I am not saying Kiner and Gil Hodges had equal home run power.
Gil may have been the best player at his position in the major leagues for about 10 years (that is often a Hall of Fame metric). Beyond the strong hitting, his fielding was superb (won the first 3 Gold Gloves....Gold Gloves not awarded earlier than that including for 5 of his previous all-star season). First Baseman Keith Hernandez (who won 11 Gold Gloves and was a very good hitter [2182 hits and but only 162 HR's] is not in the Hall of Fame so I think a first basemen needs exceptional hitting numbers (beyond great fielding] for his era which is a second reason I bring up Gil's war years. On top of that (and to the extent voters add manager accomplishments to player accomplishments), he won a World Series by turning around a perennial (though loveable) loser. See the earlier posts on this subject. I don't see any way one can suggest that he missed 3 or 4 years of MLB play (and stats) to military service. It's just not true. Again, he was a teenager when he went into the service-he missed several years of minor league ball. In my opinion, you cannot rest your case on the fact that he played one MLB game, striking out twice and making two errors, before he got drafted.
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Post by Xmassader on Jan 6, 2019 10:31:20 GMT -5
While we’re on the subject of players who might merit induction in the HOF, give some thought to “Sweet” Lou Whitaker whose stats (particularly WAR) compare favorably with many HOF second basemen (and, for that matter, players at other positions). Part of the longest tenured DP combo in MLB history whose DP partner was just inducted in the HOF. No disrespect to Harold Baines but, if he merits induction, Lou clearly does.
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Post by Xmassader on Jan 6, 2019 10:41:06 GMT -5
Just a brief comparison of Whitaker’s WAR vs. several HOF second basemen—-Whitaker 75, Sandberg 68, Schoendienst 42 and Maz 36
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 6, 2019 10:58:30 GMT -5
Here's a rundown of the NL All-Star first basemen beginning in 1948 through 1959. Gill was a part-time player 1960 -1963. In 1960-61 Gil played 100+ games, but had under 250 at bats each season, suggesting that his glove was still highly valued and that he perhaps came in as a defensive replacement for starter Norm Larker in late innings. As Hodges batted right and Larker left there was likely also some platooning.
Year= Starter----Reserves
1948= Johnny Mize-----Eddie Waitkus 1949= Johnny Mize---Gil Hodges & Eddie Waitkus 1950= Stan Musial---Gil Hodges 1951= Gil Hodges----no reserve 1952= Whitey Lockman---Gil Hodges 1953= Ted Kluszewski---Gil Hodges 1954= Ted Kluszewski---Gil Hodges 1955= Ted Kluszewski---Gil Hodges & Stan Musial 1956= Dale Long---Ted Kluszewski (Infamous year when Reds fans stuffed the ballot box-5 starters) 1957= Stan Musial---Gil Hodges 1958= Stan Musial---George Crowe 1959= Orlando Cepeda---Stan Musial & Frank Robinson (two all star games this year, Musial started second game)
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 6, 2019 11:04:51 GMT -5
Just a brief comparison of Whitaker’s WAR vs. several HOF second basemen—-Whitaker 75, Sandberg 68, Schoendienst 42 and Maz 36 Lou Whitaker merits really serious consideration. When you look at his 10 Comparable Players you see 6 HOFers, including the three most comparable: Sandberg, Trammell, Alomar. It would be nice to see an exhibit in the Hall (if Whitaker makes it) of the 19 years he and Trammell formed the DP combination for Detroit.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Jan 6, 2019 11:14:44 GMT -5
The most important factor for borderline HoF candidates is to have been friendly, accessible, accommodating, and always willing to schmooze with the voting BBWA scribes during your playing days.
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Post by hcpride on Jan 6, 2019 13:01:21 GMT -5
Folks who argue his hitting stats were not up to snuff (not saying I agree) sometimes forget (or don't know) he missed 3-4 years in the war. Especially when they are contrasting with teammate Duke Snider who hit the 'magic' 400 (407) and 2,000 (2,116) while Gil (370 HR , 1921 hits did not)...and eventually got in the Hall of Fame in 1980. I am not suggesting hitting 400 home runs was the only reason Snider or some other players of that era got in, but everyone who hit 400 in that era is in the Hall of Fame. (BTW Snider got his 2,000th hit and 400th HR while playing for the Mets near the end of his career.) I am also not saying this is the only reason Gil should get in. Of course missing years for military service is ordinarily taken into consideration, here is the opening paragraph on Ralph Kiner (HOF slugger from that precise era who hit 'just' 369 HR's) at baseball-reference.com: Ralph Kiner, a member of the Hall of Fame, was the National League home run champion in each of his first seven seasons in the major leagues. He missed close to three full seasons to service in World War II, thus reducing his career statistics. The years Kiner missed, BTW, were prior to his first major league appearance. I am not saying Kiner and Gil Hodges had equal home run power.
See the earlier posts on this subject. I don't see any way one can suggest that he missed 3 or 4 years of MLB play (and stats) to military service. It's just not true. Again, he was a teenager when he went into the service-he missed several years of minor league ball. In my opinion, you cannot rest your case on the fact that he played one MLB game, striking out twice and making two errors, before he got drafted. Your theory is that the four years he lost after appearing in the majors would have been spent in the minors if he hadn’t gone off to war? Interesting. All four? I bring it up because glove-wise it’s a no brainer for the 8-time All Star. Bat-wise folks ( especially folks who compare his numbers to more current players) think he came up a bit short. Not very short since 400 HR is the magic number for the era. He hit 370 (11th in MLB history at the time....the first 10 on the list at the time are in the HOF and the seven guys right after him at the time are in the HOF). I assume you read what I wrote concerning Ralph Kiner: Of course missing years for military service is ordinarily taken into consideration by the experts, here is the opening paragraph on Ralph Kiner (HOF slugger from that precise era who hit 'just' 369 HR's) at baseball-reference.com: “Ralph Kiner, a member of the Hall of Fame, was the National League home run champion in each of his first seven seasons in the major leagues. He missed close to three full seasons to service in World War II, thus reducing his career statistics.” The years Kiner missed, BTW, were prior to his first major league appearance. (I am not saying Kiner and Gil Hodges had equal home run power). In any case I'd assume he's getting in at some point. Just too good relative to his peers.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 6, 2019 14:15:34 GMT -5
Honestly--just look at the facts:
Hodges played 1 game at age 19 for the Dodgers--the last game of the season --again, he struck out twice, walked once, and made two errors in the field. Are you really suggesting that this proves he was ready to be a major league player? Do you believe he lost as much to the war as the 23-25-27 year olds who had several years of MLB play before they went into the service? When he got out of the service at age 22 he played a year of class B minor league ball and hit 8 homers and batted .278. He came up the next year and put up very poor numbers. I think Gil Hodges lost minor league seasons to the service
Kiner was a different story. At age 20 in 1943 he was playing AA minor league ball and then early in the season went into the Navy. He became a pilot. He missed that year and then his 21YO and 22YO years in the service. However, in contrast to Gil Hodges, Kiner came back from the service right to MLB and led the league in home runs as a 23 YO rookie. Still, I would not say that he lost 2 MLB years to service. Maybe he lost 2 minor league seasons and 1 major league season or maybe part of 1 major league season.
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Post by hcpride on Jan 6, 2019 15:17:45 GMT -5
Honestly--just look at the facts: Hodges played 1 game at age 19 for the Dodgers--the last game of the season --again, he struck out twice, walked once, and made two errors in the field. Are you really suggesting that this proves he was ready to be a major league player? Do you believe he lost as much to the war as the 23-25-27 year olds who had several years of MLB play before they went into the service? When he got out of the service at age 22 he played a year of class B minor league ball and hit 8 homers and batted .278. He came up the next year and put up very poor numbers. I think Gil Hodges lost minor league seasons to the service Kiner was a different story. At age 20 in 1943 he was playing AA minor league ball and then early in the season went into the Navy. He became a pilot. He missed that year and then his 21YO and 22YO years in the service. However, in contrast to Gil Hodges, Kiner came back from the service right to MLB and led the league in home runs as a 23 YO rookie. Still, I would not say that he lost 2 MLB years to service. Maybe he lost 2 minor league seasons and 1 major league season or maybe part of 1 major league season. The point with HOF slugger Ralph Kiner (369 career HR's) was that it is understood wartime service, even prior to a pro career, affects career totals: "He missed close to three full seasons to service in World War II, thus reducing his career statistics." If you are trying to prove (somehow) that Hodges was not ready to play in the major leagues notwithstanding the fact that the Dodgers played him in the major leagues...and they should have waited four years more to bring him up...so his war service did not affect his career stats then I guess you're alone on that one. Again, I bring it up because glove-wise it’s a no brainer for the 8-time All Star. Bat-wise folks ( especially folks who compare his numbers to more current players) think he came up a bit short. Not very short since 400 HR is the magic number for the era. He hit 370 (11th in MLB history at the time....the first 10 on the list at the time are in the HOF and the seven guys right after him at the time are in the HOF). Just for fun I looked at the baseball reference similar stats for Ralph Kiner...only one of ten is in the HOF (Larry Doby - who gained entrance via the Veteran's Committee 40 years after retirement ). Useless for HOF guidance (given varying eras).
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 6, 2019 16:04:36 GMT -5
Okay— I can assure you I’m not alone in my assessment about Jodges. The facts are overwhelming that he was not ready to be an MLB star st ages 20-21-22-23. You disagree. What production do you think he missed due to military duty? Would he have hit another 25 or 50 or 75 homers, another 500 hits?
Re: Kiner— I’m not holding him up as a great HOFer—borderline HOF to me—and, as I suggested earlier, his supporters are wrong in claiming he lost multiple years to the military.
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Post by hcpride on Jan 6, 2019 16:46:46 GMT -5
Okay— I can assure you I’m not alone in my assessment about Jodges. The facts are overwhelming that he was not ready to be an MLB star st ages 20-21-22-23. You disagree. What production do you think he missed due to military duty? Would he have hit another 25 or 50 or 75 homers, another 500 hits? Re: Kiner— I’m not holding him up as a great HOFer—borderline HOF to me—and, as I suggested earlier, his supporters are wrong in claiming he lost multiple years to the military. "star" = strawman Again, he hit 370 HR's even with his military service. 400 HR is the magic number for the era. Every player who hit 400 from his era is in the Hall of Fame. (One may or may not believe one or another are borderline HOFers...nevertheless they are all in) Again, that 370 (with his military service) was 11th in MLB history at the time....the first 10 on the list at the time are in the HOF [perhaps some borderline] and the seven guys right after him at the time are in the HOF [perhaps some borderline]. I stole that stat from an SI article written a few years ago that argued essentially on HR's alone (forget the brilliant glove, the wartime service effects on his batting stats, the Miracle Mets, etc.) the 8-time All Star belonged with his HOF peers. Here(Funny thing about military service for ballplayers, it is obviously thoroughly impossible to precisely quantify its effect on statistics, after all, perhaps DiMaggio or Williams or Hodges or Kiner would have blown a knee rounding 2nd base if they were not otherwise engaged militarily on any given day.)
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Post by Chu Chu on Jan 9, 2019 12:46:47 GMT -5
Gil was one of my boyhood heroes, as well as all of the legendary Brooklyn Dodgers from the 1950s. I have to agree with Rod Gaspar, "He should have been voted in when he was first eligible. It’s really a travesty, a joke, that he is not in the Hall of Fame."
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Post by timholycross on Jan 9, 2019 17:23:57 GMT -5
Let's look at the record. Baseball-Reference says the following batters had careers that were most like that of Gil Hodges: 1) Norm Cash 2) George Foster 3) Tino Martinez 4) Jack Clark 5) Mark Texeira 6) Boog Powell 7) Rocky Colavito 8) Joe Adcock 9) Lee May 10) Willie Horton I might vote for Hodges; for various reasons I wouldn't vote for anyone on this list, nor would most people.
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Post by hchoops on Jan 9, 2019 17:41:05 GMT -5
Besides his previously mentioned major upset World Series managerial win of ‘69, and Gold Glove first base play, Gil played on 7 pennant winners and 2 World Series champs. His character, which is listed as a criteria, was impeccable.
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 9, 2019 18:28:09 GMT -5
We know character no longer counts for anything - except for Pete Rose.
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Post by hchoops on Jan 9, 2019 18:34:37 GMT -5
And McGuire, Palmeiro, Rodriguez, Bonds, etc
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Post by rickii on Jan 9, 2019 19:08:48 GMT -5
HOF became meaningless to me about 12-15 years ago....way too many guys getting in who were just ok and NOT special players.
My standards are admittedly high....loved guys like Gil but just dunno about my HOF.
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Post by Tom on Jan 10, 2019 10:47:37 GMT -5
We know character no longer counts for anything - except for Pete Rose. Character does not have anything to do with Pete Rose not being in the Hall The rule is that if you gamble on baseball you are banned from all baseball activities for life including HoF induction. Yes it is a severe penalty but that is because it is the most grievous offense in the game. It's kind of like 3 strikes and you're out. It's just a rule. If character had anything to do with it, Ty Cobb wouldn't be in either
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