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Post by matunuck on Mar 5, 2019 14:33:44 GMT -5
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Post by alum on Mar 5, 2019 14:48:36 GMT -5
Trial balloon to look for a reaction? I would argue that many schools that claim to be need blind are cheating on it by focusing on international students. They kill two birds with one stone--diversify the class and generate a bunch of full pay students. FWIW, the College has been need aware as to the waiting list for some time. One of my kids was placed on it and I recall that the letter indicated that no financial aid would ever be available to people admitted off of it.
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Post by hc6774 on Mar 5, 2019 15:00:29 GMT -5
"need sensitive" is the term I heard in O'Kane last week
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Post by hchoops on Mar 5, 2019 15:23:39 GMT -5
Unfortunate change One possible way to deal with this is to have alums direct their contribution to financial need.
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Post by Tom on Mar 6, 2019 10:05:52 GMT -5
It's hard to be need blind and guarantee everybody 100 percent of demonstrated need (even if they use the formula from hell).
Also on some level diversity has figured into the mix. When you're getting most of your kids from Catholic high schools, there's some expectation that the pool of kids is at least middle class. Someone who is willing to pay money to go to high school instead of the free public option probably isn't totally destitute. (This is obviously a generality - and as Catholic high schools are getting more expensive, there is increased financial aid there too). I think we have seen data that the percentage of incoming freshmen from Catholic high schools is dropping. I'm not calling this good or bad - just expensive
Then throw in the fact that college tuition is outpacing inflation by a lot and financial aid becomes more and more challenging
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Post by gks on Mar 6, 2019 10:17:09 GMT -5
If your financial aid offers do not grow with tuition you will be in trouble as an institution.
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Post by purplehaze on Mar 7, 2019 11:54:50 GMT -5
I have a daughter who is a senior in h.s. and it can be generally stated that the cost of the east coast private colleges will exceed $70,000 next year when considering everything including books/fees etc.. I can imagine that HC has to consider a family's ability to pay close to that when making 'close calls' on admitting a candidate - those decisions are being made 'as we speak' - I am sure the school regrets this change in criteria for admission, but it was bound to happen eventually.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 7, 2019 13:02:34 GMT -5
If you divide the endowment by 3000 students there really isn't enough resources to offer need blind financial aid at today's tuition prices. Giving more full athletic scholarships than when the committment to need blind financial aid was made, if I have my time line correct, only exasperates that.
On-line distance learning is another threat. Let's hope that on-line education doesn't evolve into Amazon, and Brick and Mortar education doesn't evolve into Sears & Roebucks.
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Post by Tom on Mar 8, 2019 9:30:16 GMT -5
If you divide the endowment by 3000 students there really isn't enough resources to offer need blind financial aid at today's tuition prices. Giving more full athletic scholarships than when the committment to need blind financial aid was made, if I have my time line correct, only exasperates that. On-line distance learning is another threat. Let's hope that on-line education doesn't evolve into Amazon, and Brick and Mortar education doesn't evolve into Sears & Roebucks. I might be a bit of a dinosaur, but I have a reasonable expectation the goods I purchase on-line are basically the same as brick and mortar stores. I don't have that expectation of on-line colleges. FWIW, I know hiring managers who's first cut in the hiring process is to toss all resumes with on-line colleges into the trash
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Post by alum on Mar 8, 2019 10:18:25 GMT -5
There is a way that one can be need-blind in admissions and meet 100% of need (understanding that every college and every parent define 100% of need differently.) You need to increase the size of the endowment. I have complained a few times that our campaign only seeks $90 million for the endowment. I hope that once this building spree is over that they can work on generating more unrestricted gifts in support of financial aid.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 8, 2019 10:39:02 GMT -5
Good points, alum. I'd have to think that once the building spree is done we'll have finished adding structures for some time. We'll have building expenses for renovating one dorm a year, but nothing like what we've had of late. Let's get that endowment to $1BN plus.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 8, 2019 18:18:36 GMT -5
I once heard a development professional reference the "Ediface Complex" meaning it is psychologically easier to give large donations if a beautiful new building goes up with the donor's name carved in stone.
However, that doesn't lessen my admiration for the Luths, Smiths and other large benefactors. Thank You, Thank You.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Mar 8, 2019 23:48:33 GMT -5
Holy Cross is one of only four Catholic universities which are need blind and full need (along with Boston College, Georgetown, and Notre Dame).
A move to need-aware and full need would align HC with schools such as Colgate, Lafayette, and many of the NESCAC schools.
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Post by princetoncrusader on Mar 9, 2019 8:13:14 GMT -5
A high school senior who I interviewed last year here in central NJ was admitted to HC, Elon and wait-listed at Davidson. His dad is an HC alum. The 2 older siblings are in college. Davidson eventually came through with an offer of admission and an $18k financial aid package according to his dad. The other schools had similar offers. The HC financial aid package was zero. So the decision to attend Davidson was an easy one, although I think his parents, who are faithful Catholics, really wanted him to attend HC. Makes me wonder just how true HC's claim of meeting the full financial need of applicants is in reality.
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Post by Chu Chu on Mar 9, 2019 12:31:08 GMT -5
A high school senior who I interviewed last year here in central NJ was admitted to HC, Elon and wait-listed at Davidson. His dad is an HC alum. The 2 older siblings are in college. Davidson eventually came through with an offer of admission and an $18k financial aid package according to his dad. The other schools had similar offers. The HC financial aid package was zero. So the decision to attend Davidson was an easy one, although I think his parents, who are faithful Catholics, really wanted him to attend HC. Makes me wonder just how true HC's claim of meeting the full financial need of applicants is in reality. Would this financial aid have been "need based" or "merit based"? What i have observed is, many middle and upper income families find the sticker price of a private college education today to be shockingly high. If they have a high achieving student, the really expect to see some merit aid recognition that helps to ease their burden, even if they do not qualify for a "need based" award. This is where Holy Cross is not very competitive. We have stood on our laurels, while many other schools dole out the "merit based" aid to attract the high achieving students who might not otherwise attend, as a way of improving their numbers and class quality.
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Post by princetoncrusader on Mar 9, 2019 15:58:53 GMT -5
I did not press the dad for details, but I am assuming it was need based given that the 2 older siblings are in college and the 2 younger siblings are attending a local Catholic high school So a lot of tuition checks flowing out of that house. The kid had impressive credentials as i also interviewed him. Perhaps the HC financial aid office really looks at family income and not "net family income." I think its a clear loss for HC as he would have fit in well.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 9, 2019 18:53:08 GMT -5
Those are two separate points well taken. In the first case I too have heard from parents that HC is not particularly generous regarding financial aid (notwithstanding full need verbiage and of course this is the parents’ perspective) and in the second case it is also true they give out almost zero merit- based academic grants. One of the effects, of course, is that you do not see National Merit Finalists and Semi- Finalists walking around at HC...and one suspects the middle class non-athlete may be getting scarce too.
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Post by alum on Mar 9, 2019 18:59:33 GMT -5
I did not press the dad for details, but I am assuming it was need based given that the 2 older siblings are in college and the 2 younger siblings are attending a local Catholic high school So a lot of tuition checks flowing out of that house. The kid had impressive credentials as i also interviewed him. Perhaps the HC financial aid office really looks at family income and not "net family income." I think its a clear loss for HC as he would have fit in well. No way the financial aid packages could be that far off. Davidson has a merit program www.davidson.edu/admission-and-financial-aid/financial-aid/scholarships/scholarship-faqI dont know any colleges which which reduce parental contribution because of private high school tuition I am in favor of a slight increase in merit money and actually wondered if the recent announcement might reflect a plan to offer a little more Finally, my experience is that many lie about merit money, financial aid, and even the colleges which accept or reject their kids
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Post by hcpride on Mar 10, 2019 7:42:36 GMT -5
I don't know. Within a 66K+ cost of attendance and with two other siblings in college there might be an 18K financial aid offer at Davidson and O at HC. Of course the financial aid is recalculated annually and there may (will) be (significant) changes as the siblings graduate. One major difference between HC and Davidson regarding financial aid is that Davidson does NOT include loans as financial aid. That might indicate Davidson is a bit more generous regarding financial aid than Holy Cross on a number of fronts. (Although perhaps not relevant to the case-in-hand that no-loan policy can result in tens of thousands of dollars in savings for the student over four years.) It is also true that Davidson, according to their website does offer merit aid: "Approximately 7% of each enrolling class will be offered a merit scholarship." Ranging from $500 to full cost. One suspects it is generally offered to students with the academic credentials to attend schools more selective than HC or Davidson. (Davidson's academic reputation is a bit stronger than HC's IMHO so it would be ironic if merit aid from Davidson was decisive in pulling a kid from HC...so I suspect the father may have correctly referenced financial aid.) And I definitely agree with alum that parents frequently 'miscommunicate' a whole range of college-related topics.
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Post by matunuck on Mar 10, 2019 8:35:33 GMT -5
A while back a HC official told me that giving more merit aid was something they were seriously considering because HC was losing kids to schools it hadn’t in the past. Villanova, among others, was specifically mentioned but I haven’t looked at VU’s numbers.
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Post by gks on Mar 10, 2019 9:09:34 GMT -5
A while back a HC official told me that giving more merit aid was something they were seriously considering because HC was losing kids to schools it hadn’t in the past. Villanova, among others, was specifically mentioned but I haven’t looked at VU’s numbers. This is sad...and cheap.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 10, 2019 9:28:55 GMT -5
A while back a HC official told me that giving more merit aid was something they were seriously considering because HC was losing kids to schools it hadn’t in the past. Villanova, among others, was specifically mentioned but I haven’t looked at VU’s numbers. Definitely NOT the case nowadays or even in the last 10 years (Villanova offers almost zero merit aid...there are one or two named schollies), I'd put them in HC's category regarding lack of merit aid. Ditto BC. Obviously Villanova/BC in a different admissions category from HC nowadays but that is another story. Fordham does offer merit aid and they tend to land the higher academic kids (NMF/NMSF) over us . PC or Fordahm might fit your recollection.
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Post by alum on Mar 10, 2019 10:06:17 GMT -5
A while back a HC official told me that giving more merit aid was something they were seriously considering because HC was losing kids to schools it hadn’t in the past. Villanova, among others, was specifically mentioned but I haven’t looked at VU’s numbers. Definitely NOT the case nowadays or even in the last 10 years (Villanova offers almost zero merit aid...there are one or two named schollies), I'd put them in HC's category regarding lack of merit aid. Ditto BC. Obviously Villanova/BC in a different admissions category from HC nowadays but that is another story. Fordham does offer merit aid and they tend to land the higher academic kids (NMF/NMSF) over us . PC or Fordahm might fit your recollection. Pride Villanova is in the merit scholarship business in a big way www1.villanova.edu/villanova/admission/affordable/scholarships.html
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Post by matunuck on Mar 10, 2019 10:12:55 GMT -5
VU was definitely cited by HC person and that the school has been specifically targeting very high achieving students as one means to slowly raise overall academic profile. But like I said I never checked and haven’t thought about until this thread surfaced.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 10, 2019 10:18:10 GMT -5
I started looking at CDS data for financial aid, and then became side-tracked to a tangent on fin aid for athletes.
But, looking at HC and Colgate for the class entering in the Fall, 2018, the schools are worlds apart.
HC 868 enrolled 638 applied for aid 483 determined eligible and received aid 413 received need-based $36.3K average need based scollie aid $4.6K average need based self help $3.4K average need based loan +++++++++++++++++++++
Colgate 815 enrolled 313 applied for aid 247 determined eligible and received aid 247 received need-based $55.2K average need based scollie aid $3.6K average need based self help $1.1K average need based loan
I'll do other schools what I have the time and the mood strikes me.
But if HC moves to need-aware like Colgate, the application numbers are likely to plummet, unless 90 percent are admitted need-blind, and the last ten percent are admitted need-aware.
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