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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 30, 2019 16:02:33 GMT -5
hoops, excerpts from the T&G article
The driver no longer has any videos on his channel. The streamed video of the encounters showed some sophistication with computer graphics, so I doubt this was a one-ff production on the driver's part.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 30, 2019 16:42:38 GMT -5
Maybe the HC VP made the driver an offer he couldn't refuse. Big Jake and the gang painting his house and getting it done by graduation.😉
Statistically there is a 90% or so chance the driver is neither gay or disabled so I think these slurs, which are probably kept under wraps most of the time are trotted out when someone is in a battle of wits and in need of an appropriate insult but mentally slowed by inebriation and anger. I assume these Dean's Listers have nothing actually against gay or disabled people, were raised by good parents, taught by good teachers and have probably volunteered for Special Olympics or attended a gay rights rally or something similar during their eight years of HS and college if they are typical HC students.
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Post by Bleed Purple on Mar 30, 2019 17:10:44 GMT -5
Agree that HC likely had no legal basis for demanding the video be removed, but they clearly had an interest in having it removed. Pure speculation, but HC did say they had been in contact with the driver and might it be possible HC compensated the driver in exchange for the videos removal? Cynically, might this whole episode been a planned "shakedown" by the driver? Of course, we will never know. I highly doubt the driver would have voluntarily pulled the video without good reason. This will disappoint some, but it is possible that the HC admin actually managed this situation well in working to get the video removed.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 31, 2019 0:17:01 GMT -5
The driver is an independent contractor, but he represents an international service company. He shouldn't be harming Uber by posting this on YouTube. While the video is a terrible look for the students and an embarrassment for HC, it is not a good advertisment for Uber for this driver to be attacking Uber customers by posting the video. He's sixty years old and trading insults with college kids. If his regional manager got a call from an HC VP it probably didn't take much convincing to get the Uber manager to ask the driver to take this video down.
Regarding what discipline HC should mete out, it is somewhat similar to the Uber driver situation. The driver is an independent contractor not an employee and he owns the car not Uber. The HC seniors are students but they are also legal adults and paying customers of Holy Cross. At least some of the students appear to live off campus and no part of the incident happened at Holy Cross or as part of a Holy Cross sanctioned activity. There are enough legal gray areas to keep lawyers billing ad infinitum if one party wanted to push it and the other party wanted to challenge it, imo. But I'm happy to be corrected by any of the real lawyers on this board.
Some project in service to Holy Cross between now and graduation that the students agree to would work where attempting to suspend or expel them for a non-HC, off campus dust up might take the college down a rat hole.
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Post by lou on Mar 31, 2019 8:03:14 GMT -5
I dont remember the driver trading insults. I thought it all started when the wrong kids tried to get into his car, in other words not the name he was expecting, I assume that is against the Uber rules.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 31, 2019 12:45:00 GMT -5
I thought I remembered the driver calling Big Jake a "Richard" Head after Big Jake called him one. Maybe they were using a knickname for Richard.
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Post by moose1970 on Mar 31, 2019 17:40:58 GMT -5
Maybe the HC VP made the driver an offer he couldn't refuse. Big Jake and the gang painting his house and getting it done by graduation.😉 Statistically there is a 90% or so chance the driver is neither gay or disabled so I think these slurs, which are probably kept under wraps most of the time are trotted out when someone is in a battle of wits and in need of an appropriate insult but mentally slowed by inebriation and anger. I assume these Dean's Listers have nothing actually against gay or disabled people, were raised by good parents, taught by good teachers and have probably volunteered for Special Olympics or attended a gay rights rally or something similar during their eight years of HS and college if they are typical HC students. Accepting all your assumptions purely for this discussion: Neither the bona fides of these students nor the fact that they were disgustingly drunk in any way ameliorates or in any way excuses their reprehensible behavior. I assume we agree. Now, should their behavior be dismissed with a wink and a nod as youthful hijinks or should they be held accountable in some way by the school? Should there be consequences for their actions? Perhaps the parents should be shown the video to see how terribly their children spoke/behaved and then with parental input each student should be required towrite a thoughtful letter of apology and confined to campus for the remainder of the semester with the driver not filing any charges or if that is unacceptable then perhaps the driver should be encouraged to press charges (criminal mischief, harassment, menacing). How should the school respond? What should HC do? LoveHC " How should the school respond?" we already know that the current HC administration is consumed by fear of bad PR and will do nothing or, as little as possible. It may appoint a committee to investigate why students go out and get drunk on a saturday night DUH! leaving it up to the school to deal with the offending students will be like the police leaving it up to the R.C. Church to deal with pedofile priests. we all know what happened there!!!
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 31, 2019 21:55:45 GMT -5
From HC's Clery Report for 2018 Judicial referrals for: Liquor law violations on campus: 488 Of which 475 were in residence halls. Arrests for liquor law violations 3 (all were on public property). Judicial referrals for: Drug related violations on campus 17 (all in residence halls) Drug related arrests 0 www.holycross.edu/sites/default/files/files/publicsafety/holy_cross_2018_annual_security_and_fire_safety_reports_1.pdf^^^ This is a 37 page report, nearly all of which addresses policies and procedures. Clery reports are required by Federal law. A liquor law violation is defined as [Emphasis mine] The college's alcohol policy begins on p. 33 here www.holycross.edu/sites/default/files/files/studenthandbook.pdfFrom the handbook, it would seem that the college defers to Worcester city police for transgressions occurring outside the gates. In the instance of the Uber driver, the police told the T&G they had no record of a complaint. ____________________________ Thinking the alcohol violations were pretty high for HC, I looked at Stonehill, a school nearly the size of HC, for a comparison. Stonehill had relatively similar rates for alcohol, but much lower for drugs. Clark has about 20 percent fewer undergrads than HC; alcohol violations at Clark were about 40 percent of HC's violations, drug violations were about 4x HC's number. Williams had 131 alcohol violations, and three drug violations. Williams noted marijuana was decriminalized in 2016, and a 10-fold reduction in violations ensued. HC takes a harder line on marijuana.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 1, 2019 6:53:09 GMT -5
"Embarrassing the Shield while drinking off campus" is not a listed violation.
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Post by Tom on Apr 1, 2019 7:56:18 GMT -5
I know a student who, as a freshman, got into minor trouble for having solo cups and ping pong balls in his dorm room. There was no alcohol in his room. It was called drinking paraphernalia. Curious if that would count as one of the 475 "violations"
-------------------------------
In terms of letting the Worcester police handle stuff outside the gates, at one point the school was having a police pay detail on weekends to have a presence in the neighborhood.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Apr 1, 2019 8:41:11 GMT -5
I know a student who, as a freshman, got into minor trouble for having solo cups and ping pong balls in his dorm room. There was no alcohol in his room. It was called drinking paraphernalia. Curious if that would count as one of the 475 "violations" ------------------------------- This is exactly why the numbers that Phreek posted are basically useless. The way campus police and RAs treat students at one school can be completely different than another, and drastically skew the numbers. It is not breaking news that most 18-22 year old kids who only have ~10-15 hours of activities (classes) on their calendar are typically going to be drinking at least a couple days a week. The idea that drinking at Holy Cross is any worse/different than the vast majority of colleges is ridiculous.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Apr 1, 2019 10:21:17 GMT -5
I know a student who, as a freshman, got into minor trouble for having solo cups and ping pong balls in his dorm room. There was no alcohol in his room. It was called drinking paraphernalia. Curious if that would count as one of the 475 "violations" ------------------------------- This is exactly why the numbers that Phreek posted are basically useless. The way campus police and RAs treat students at one school can be completely different than another, and drastically skew the numbers. It is not breaking news that most 18-22 year old kids who only have ~10-15 hours of activities (classes) on their calendar are typically going to be drinking at least a couple days a week. The idea that drinking at Holy Cross is any worse/different than the vast majority of colleges is ridiculous. The incentive for campus police and RA's is the opposite of what you suggest. As the statistics are included in a Federal report that is required to be publicly published, why would a school want to ring up offenses that only lead to a misimpression that excessive drinking is far more widespread than it is? . The college itself believes there is too much excessive drinking. Perhaps former residents of Caro who partied during its heyday think the college's concern is ill-founded. In any event, excessive drinking on Caro would not be included in these statistics, unless the drinking resulted in an arrest by the WPD.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Apr 1, 2019 10:40:44 GMT -5
This is exactly why the numbers that Phreek posted are basically useless. The way campus police and RAs treat students at one school can be completely different than another, and drastically skew the numbers. It is not breaking news that most 18-22 year old kids who only have ~10-15 hours of activities (classes) on their calendar are typically going to be drinking at least a couple days a week. The idea that drinking at Holy Cross is any worse/different than the vast majority of colleges is ridiculous. The incentive for campus police and RA's is the opposite of what you suggest. As the statistics are included in a Federal report that is required to be publicly published, why would a school want to ring up offenses that only lead to a misimpression that excessive drinking is far more widespread than it is? . I am going to make an assumption that you've never had a run in with an RA who walks around campus on a Saturday night thinking they are doing the Lord's work by shutting down and writing up as many rooms as they can.
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Post by HC16 on Apr 1, 2019 11:22:22 GMT -5
This is exactly why the numbers that Phreek posted are basically useless. The way campus police and RAs treat students at one school can be completely different than another, and drastically skew the numbers. It is not breaking news that most 18-22 year old kids who only have ~10-15 hours of activities (classes) on their calendar are typically going to be drinking at least a couple days a week. The idea that drinking at Holy Cross is any worse/different than the vast majority of colleges is ridiculous. The incentive for campus police and RA's is the opposite of what you suggest. As the statistics are included in a Federal report that is required to be publicly published, why would a school want to ring up offenses that only lead to a misimpression that excessive drinking is far more widespread than it is? . The college itself believes there is too much excessive drinking. Perhaps former residents of Caro who partied during its heyday think the college's concern is ill-founded. In any event, excessive drinking on Caro would not be included in these statistics, unless the drinking resulted in an arrest by the WPD. An of age friend of mine one got written up for standing in the doorway to his room with a closed beer in his pocket while talking to another of age friend. Based on what you've said, that number would be included on this report. Conversely, you give a good reason for schools to underreport their drinking on campus (reputational damage to the school). So if both honesty and standards of enforcement can skew these numbers, why should they be considered to compare one institution to another? It seems to me the only potential value is to compare a school to itself over time, and even that is questionable depending on changing reporting methodology.
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Post by gks on Apr 1, 2019 11:48:43 GMT -5
From my own department of research here's what I've concluded...
-College kids drink and sometimes drink a lot. -College kids when drunk act like jackasses. -This happens at every college in the world.
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 1, 2019 12:07:38 GMT -5
Is that the old "everyone else is doing it" argument? Long the favorite of children everywhere.
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Post by gks on Apr 1, 2019 12:10:15 GMT -5
No. Just that stories like this don't surprise me. Not condoning it one bit. Just what happens and every college deals with it.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Apr 1, 2019 13:09:45 GMT -5
The incentive for campus police and RA's is the opposite of what you suggest. As the statistics are included in a Federal report that is required to be publicly published, why would a school want to ring up offenses that only lead to a misimpression that excessive drinking is far more widespread than it is? . The college itself believes there is too much excessive drinking. Perhaps former residents of Caro who partied during its heyday think the college's concern is ill-founded. In any event, excessive drinking on Caro would not be included in these statistics, unless the drinking resulted in an arrest by the WPD. An of age friend of mine one got written up for standing in the doorway to his room with a closed beer in his pocket while talking to another of age friend. Based on what you've said, that number would be included on this report. Conversely, you give a good reason for schools to underreport their drinking on campus (reputational damage to the school). So if both honesty and standards of enforcement can skew these numbers, why should they be considered to compare one institution to another? It seems to me the only potential value is to compare a school to itself over time, and even that is questionable depending on changing reporting methodology. The annual Clery Act reports present data for the last three years. With enough reports in hand, one could do a trend analysis of crimes/violations over time. With respect to changes in methodology, several of the comparison schools I referenced noted that Massachusetts law regarding marijuana possession changed several years ago, and a reduction in the number of drug-related violations on campus followed. The Department of Education infrequently audits schools and their Clery Act reports. The University of Scranton was fined $70,000 for two violations. studentaid.ed.gov/sa/sites/default/files/fsawg/datacenter/cleryact/0263_001.pdfGeorgetown has been audited twice. The first was in response to a student complaint. The second, more recent, audit determined there were several significant failings associated with Georgetown's Clery Act reporting, including failures to accurately report violations and off-campus incidents that were reported to the Metropolitan Police Dept. studentaid.ed.gov/sa/sites/default/files/fsawg/datacenter/cleryact/georgetownuniversity/Georgetown.pdfThe Dept. of Education report is 26 pages.
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Post by HC92 on Apr 1, 2019 19:35:49 GMT -5
There’s lots of discretion in how schools or individual RAs or safety officers deal with alcohol consumption at colleges. I wouldn’t read too much into the Clery reports. I was an RA and then an HRA at HC for 2 years. The official record would reflect that there were no alcohol infractions on my watch. That would not be entirely accurate. I also just learned that the namesake of the Clery Report was a Lehigh coed who was raped and murdered on campus in 1986.
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Post by beaven302 on Apr 5, 2019 11:46:51 GMT -5
I watched the tape and to say that the students' behavior reflected poorly on HC is an understatement. That said, as others have pointed out, HC students behaving badly is nothing new. Back in the fall of 1963, my roommate, Brian Kavanaugh, told me about slipping away from a party at the 9-20 motel when it was raided by the local police. When the event was reported on Worcester radio, inexplicably, it was described as having involved Georgetown students. In the winter of 1967, I also heard about a party at a Worcester apartment in which HC "gentlemen" went out on the porch and peeked under the shade at girls using the bathroom. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
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