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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Aug 23, 2019 11:27:13 GMT -5
This letter from Fr. B. today speaks for itself.
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Post by clmetsfan on Aug 23, 2019 12:31:27 GMT -5
A good first step, but they're still not getting a dime from me until all investigations are run by an independent third party.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Aug 23, 2019 13:25:48 GMT -5
A good first step, but they're still not getting a dime from me until all investigations are run by an independent third party. You're quite likely to be holding on to your dime then. If any of these new allegations involve a member of the Jesuit community, neither the province nor the Jesuit General Curia in Rome will likely allow Fr. B. or HC to initiate an independent investigation. The phrase "virtually all" signals to me that only a single allegation or two relates to misconduct during the past decade, --and there is a clear inference that many/most of the allegations arose from conduct that is decades old, i.e., last century. I very much suspect there are allegations against former members of the Jesuit community, not heretofore named in the very recent release of names by the various provinces.
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Post by CHC8485 on Aug 23, 2019 13:41:24 GMT -5
I get the point of independent investigation given the Catholic Church's history of internal investigations of abuse, but, a serious question ...
Outside of a case turned over to the Worcester PD and DA, how does one become an independent third party when Holy Cross is paying them to do the investigation?
As someone who earns a living, in part, by being an internal investigator to assure compliance with laws and internal company standards and codes of conduct, how is a paid contractor any more credible than a paid employee? Particularly when the work is subject to audit by outside regulators - as is the case with the HC Title IX office?
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 23, 2019 14:50:38 GMT -5
When you consider attraction, close exclusive connection with another person, intimacy, love, physical sexual drives, human need for a balance of personal gratification in addition to just service to others, etc. is generally forbidden for Catholic Priests and even more so for Priests in an order who live and work together, but those things are the dance of life for everyone else...I'm not changing my positive opinion about HC or the Jesuits.
If the Catholic Church or the Jesuits want to update their policies to bring Priests and Brothers and Sisters more into the real world and be able to marry like most other Clerics can, I say bravo. But I'm not going to march on any Chanceries or Administration Buildings. Taken as a whole, HC and the Jesuits have done a pretty good job over the years. I'm sure they covered up to protect the school and Order, but they are willing to make amends as best they can now.
Here's an interesting thought: If a substantial and prestigious order like the Jesuits, now ruled by Baby Boomers, voted internally to allow member Priests to date and marry and have children would the Catholic Church, now or soon to be ruled by Baby Boomers (is "Baby Boomer" still a recognized generation in large Catholic Areas like South America, Ireland and Africa that did not participate in WW2?) cut ties with the order or accept it?
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Post by moose1970 on Aug 23, 2019 15:42:39 GMT -5
following is my e-mail reply to Fr Boroughs this morning
FYI,
Fr. Boroughs,
If I understand your carefully worded letter correctly, Holy Cross College will control or monitor the investigation into charges of sexual abuse committed at the college. the "external investigator" will be overseen by the Holy Cross College Title IX office. So the entire process is being handled in house by Holy Cross College.
That's the problem. If someone did suffer sexual abuse at Holy Cross College the last thing they want to do is discuss what happened with representatives of Holy Cross College. The whole process needs to be handled externally with the finding made public and not just reported back to Holy Cross College "for appropriate action".
Your letter clearly declares that Holy Cross College will not tolerate sexual abuse. It appears that this policy has not been faithfully followed in the past. Credibility of the investigation is at issue.
It's time to step up and prove that you are as good as your word.
pax,
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 23, 2019 16:30:26 GMT -5
Can't criticize your letter Moose. Perfectly reasonable request. However if TPTB at HC have decided they sincerely want to support those injured but do not want to broadcast every wart of the college to non-injured alumni and the general public, I can't criticize that either.
I am a great rubber necker at an accident scene, but if I am asked to move along, I move along.
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Post by HC92 on Aug 23, 2019 16:34:15 GMT -5
Enough already with the incessant self-flagellation.
Really looking forward to an email from Fr. Boroughs on what he’s doing to improve alma mater other than encouraging people to report sexual abuse. I feel like the only emails I’ve gotten directly from him in the last 2 years involved this and the importance of killing Iggy to atone for the sins of Crusaders 900 years ago. Maybe there was one about tax reform.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Aug 23, 2019 18:07:19 GMT -5
Probably one about Benny Liew, too.
And the organist who was misbehaving.
My giving -- however modest it may be -- will cease until changes are made.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Aug 23, 2019 18:20:07 GMT -5
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Post by DFW HOYA on Aug 23, 2019 19:59:40 GMT -5
Here's an interesting thought: If a substantial and prestigious order like the Jesuits, now ruled by Baby Boomers, voted internally to allow member Priests to date and marry and have children would the Catholic Church, now or soon to be ruled by Baby Boomers (is "Baby Boomer" still a recognized generation in large Catholic Areas like South America, Ireland and Africa that did not participate in WW2?) cut ties with the order or accept it? The Church is not a democracy. The Jesuits take an a vow of obedience to the Pope, so voting isn't happening. A defiance of the Pope could lead to suppression of the order, a blow that its declining state might not recover from. Given its declining numbers over the past 50 years and the passing of the Vatican II era clergy, the Church may be content letting the liberal wing of the SJ's be moved aside and restock the order with more traditionalist candidates from Africa and Asia. That said, canon law on this issue is straightforward. There is an exception for Episcopal priest converts to be ordained Catholic (my parish had a married priest for 15 years and he was a great one) and some of the eastern traditions allow it. If it were allowed in the Roman rite, I would see it at the diocesan level where the parishes could cover family costs (our priest was given his own house, for example, and did not live in the rectory), and not among the orders. canonlawmadeeasy.com/2010/09/30/celibacy-and-the-priesthood/
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 23, 2019 20:17:51 GMT -5
Unless I determine that HC did more harm and has made less amends than the average college or University my annual pittance of a donation will continue. I suspect HC is somewhere in the great middle of all religious, private and public institutions of higher education in faculty taking advantage of students and as sincere as most in supporting victims.
The Boston Globe did a spotlight series on covered up abuse at New England Prep Schools and those numerous incidents were even worse because none of the student victims were adults when they were harmed and the school administration had an even higher responsibility of "In loco parentis" for minor children at boarding schools.
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 23, 2019 20:28:57 GMT -5
Here's an interesting thought: If a substantial and prestigious order like the Jesuits, now ruled by Baby Boomers, voted internally to allow member Priests to date and marry and have children would the Catholic Church, now or soon to be ruled by Baby Boomers (is "Baby Boomer" still a recognized generation in large Catholic Areas like South America, Ireland and Africa that did not participate in WW2?) cut ties with the order or accept it? The Church is not a democracy. The Jesuits take an a vow of obedience to the Pope, so voting isn't happening. A defiance of the Pope could lead to suppression of the order, a blow that its declining state might not recover from. Given its declining numbers over the past 50 years and the passing of the Vatican II era clergy, the Church may be content letting the liberal wing of the SJ's be moved aside and restock the order with more traditionalist candidates from Africa and Asia. That said, canon law on this issue is straightforward. There is an exception for Episcopal priest converts to be ordained Catholic (my parish had a married priest for 15 years and he was a great one) and some of the eastern traditions allow it. If it were allowed in the Roman rite, I would see it at the diocesan level where the parishes could cover family costs (our priest was given his own house, for example, and did not live in the rectory), and not among the orders. canonlawmadeeasy.com/2010/09/30/celibacy-and-the-priesthood/Thank You for these excellent facts. I forget that one of the main principles of social change: "Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" does not apply to the Catholic Church. I just hope the Jesuits don't die out like the Shakers did. I remember visiting the Enfield Shaker Museum in New Hampshire, which was an actual Shaker Village, until all the celibate members died and now it is a museum.
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Post by moose1970 on Aug 24, 2019 2:37:32 GMT -5
I get the point of independent investigation given the Catholic Church's history of internal investigations of abuse, but, a serious question ... Outside of a case turned over to the Worcester PD and DA, how does one become an independent third party when Holy Cross is paying them to do the investigation? As someone who earns a living, in part, by being an internal investigator to assure compliance with laws and internal company standards and codes of conduct, how is a paid contractor any more credible than a paid employee? Particularly when the work is subject to audit by outside regulators - as is the case with the HC Title IX office? "... how is a paid contractor any more credible than a paid employee?"good question. there are organizations that have reported on and exposed sexual abuse by priests. Holy Cross could start with Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP) founded in 1988. the Roman Catholic Church has no credibility in investigating sexual abuse by priests. To have any legitimacy the investigation must be transparent. This will be much more expensive than the proposal offered by Fr. Boroughs but the Church has dug its own hole and must face the consequences.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Aug 24, 2019 5:20:40 GMT -5
It is nigh impossible to use a truly independent party to conduct this investigation, because a.) these parties have no funds for such pro bono endeavors; b.) the risk and potential cost of liability if a finding(s) was erroneous would likely dictate that the findings of a truly independent party would be less transparent.
The most independent 'investigation' would be through civil litigation, see Dartmouth. However, from what Fr. B. wrote, it is very likely that the statute of limitations precludes any civil litigation for all, or virtually all, the misconduct claims.
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Post by moose1970 on Aug 24, 2019 13:47:17 GMT -5
"The most independent 'investigation' would be through civil litigation, see Dartmouth."
civil litigation does not = independent investigation. the whole purpose of civil litigation is to win for your side. dartmouth is a poor example since it is not run by the roman catholic church and does not carry the stigma of delays, denials and cover up that has been the mantra of the r.c. church in dealing with caims of sexual misconduct.
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 24, 2019 14:02:53 GMT -5
SNAP can be considered a heroic entity and I would support that. Whether they are also Independent/Neutral is another question that could be debated.
District Attorney Joe Early, Jr. son of HC basketball guard from the golden age of HC basketball, former Congressman Joe Early, Sr. could also be challenged as Independent/Neutral.
If HC meets it's moral and legal obligations to victims and cooperates in any legally required investigation I am satisfied. If someone close to me had been permanently harmed and I could see that everyday, I am sure I would be on the warpath, so I don't criticize those more adamant than me.
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Post by HCFC45 on Oct 2, 2019 7:04:45 GMT -5
Don't think this has been posted anywhere.... from the Telegram on 10/01/2019....
Holy Cross saw steep increase in fondling complaints last year; one person blamed
By Scott O’Connell
Telegram & Gazette Staff
Posted Oct 1, 2019 at 1:06 PM
Updated Oct 1, 2019 at 6:21 PM
WORCESTER - Complaints alleging more than 100 instances of sexual misconduct were filed with Holy Cross against a single person last year, according to the college.
Those reported incidents, which were categorized as “fondling,” were disclosed as part of the school’s Clery Act report released Tuesday. The annual document, which colleges are required by law to publish, shows all crimes reported to the institution for the previous year. While the college doesn’t name the alleged perpetrator, it does mention the person was accused of committing the acts over the last few decades, and has since been banned from campus. Those details would point to the college’s former organist, James David Christie, who resigned last year after several alleged victims came forward to report his misconduct. The college, in its own internal investigation, determined last June that he had sexually harassed students in his role, and has prohibited Mr. Christie from coming on campus. According to a Boston Globe story last year, former students of Christie accused him of inappropriate touching, making lewd comments and other sexual misconduct between 1994 and 2017. In its latest Clery report, Holy Cross reported it received complaints alleging 104 instances of fondling last year, 102 of which were aimed at the single person; the previous two years the school saw just three and five such incidents reported, which reflect the typical range. The data does not suggest there were 102 separate people who were allegedly abused, however, since it would count multiple incidents reported by a single victim as different complaints, according to the college. “As the #MeToo movement drew widespread attention to sexual misconduct and sexual assault, and as survivors came forward in 2018 to report previous sexual misconduct to the College, they inspired others to share their experiences,” the college’s director of public safety, Shawn de Jong, and Dottie Hauver, vice president of administration and finance, wrote in a foreword to the Clery report. Holy Cross saw a smaller increase in alleged rapes, meanwhile; reported incidents rose from two in 2017 to six last year. There were also six rapes reported in 2016, according to the college’s Clery report. The latest jump in complaints at Holy Cross came amid heightened awareness of sexual misconduct on campus and increased scrutiny of the college’s administration for its handling of the issue last year. In addition to Christie, another faculty member, Christopher Dustin, was the target of misconduct claims last academic year, which partly inspired a two-day student sit-in outside the office of the college president, the Rev. Philip L. Boroughs, in February. “The college has responded with a serious effort to examine our campus culture and climate and policies and procedures, and identify areas for improvements,” de Jong wrote in a separate message to the campus that went out Tuesday. Christie, celebrated and influential in his field, was also the organist for Oberlin College, Wellesley College and the Boston Symphony Orchestra, and has performed worldwide. At Holy Cross, he taught recipients of the college’s Organ Scholarship, a prestigious, full-ride award given every other year to a promising music major. It was five of those Organ Scholars who originally came forward to alert Boroughs about Christie as well as to tell their stories to the Globe last year. “It took sharing my story with fellow survivors to find the strength to come forward,” said one of those former students, Jacob Street, a member of the class of 2010. “This is a horrifying number of reports, but it may mean that other victims now know that it wasn’t just them. Abuse is incredibly isolating, and I hope more survivors will learn that they are not alone.”
Scott O’Connell can be reached at Scott.O’Connell@telegram.com. Follow him on Twitter @scottoconnelltg
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 2, 2019 7:19:37 GMT -5
Probably one about Benny Liew, too. And the organist who was misbehaving. My giving -- however modest it may be -- will cease until changes are made. That is certainly you're right. I respect your opinion and those who have acted in a similar fashion. I continue to support the college financially, but certainly respect those who, in conscience, cannot. (I am afraid letters like Fr. B's are not he;ojng. Is it just me or does the tone seem to imply we are a bit simple? ) Might a lay President be the person we need at this time...a female lay President?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 2, 2019 11:06:00 GMT -5
Ideally, a Catholic college should be headed by a Catholic priest
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 2, 2019 11:52:16 GMT -5
Why not a nun?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 2, 2019 14:59:34 GMT -5
Why not a nun? Good point-- Holy Cross, specifically, should be led by a Catholic priest as there are no Jesuit nuns that I know of
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 2, 2019 15:04:06 GMT -5
Weren't many of the good Jesuits a product off the early education and training they got from nuns?
I too would prefer to see Jesuits in charge, but with numbers dwindling at an alarming rate, that may not be a real possibility in the near future.
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Post by bison137 on Oct 2, 2019 15:06:36 GMT -5
Are there any Catholic universities and colleges headed by non-clergy? (Hint: I know of one highly rated Jesuit U.) As of a year ago, 16 of 28 Jesuit colleges no longer had Jesuit presidents.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 2, 2019 15:34:23 GMT -5
The full Clery Report can be found here: www.holycross.edu/sites/default/files/files/publicsafety/2018annual_security_and_firesafety_reports.pdfWith respect to Christie, there was difficulty quantifying the number of incidents. Several former students reported the incidents happened a 'few times', one student reported the improper contact happened 'all the time'. Thirty-five pages (beginning on p. 15) of the Clery report set out the college's policies and procedures for reporting, investigating, and adjudicating claims of sexual misconduct and harassment. One reported crime was classified as unfounded, The report does not indicate whether this may have been the reported assault based on gender orientation. The Office of Public Safety is temporarily located at 3 City View.
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