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Post by crusader1970 on Nov 3, 2019 22:35:36 GMT -5
Could someone please explain to me the supposed advantage of the fake on-side formation before shifting into normal KO formation?
I keep fearing the kicker is going to knock the ball off the tee as he fakes the on-side.
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 3, 2019 22:55:12 GMT -5
Sniff out how other team will position itself for an onside kick? That's all I can think of. Or perhaps the HC strategy is to be the little boy that cried wolf so nobody takes the onside seriously when Chesney actually pulls the trigger?
Or maybe each kickoff is an option play for the kicker. If the opponent doesn't position itself correctly, the onside kick will be executed?
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Post by moose1970 on Nov 4, 2019 3:00:07 GMT -5
Sniff out how other team will position itself for an onside kick? That's all I can think of. Or perhaps the HC strategy is to be the little boy that cried wolf so nobody takes the onside seriously when Chesney actually pulls the trigger? Or maybe each kickoff is an option play for the kicker. If the opponent doesn't position itself correctly, the onside kick will be executed? also if the receiving team is expecting an onsides kick it will usually place its "hands team" on the field (not their best blockers). by first showing onsides formation the kicking team may try to cross them up by suddenly shifting and kicking deep and pin the receiving team with a 3 and out defense. the idea is that the kicking team can shift formation faster than the receiving team can react. fyi, we never kicked deep v syracuse when floyd little was back there to receive. of course we didn't score that much v syracuse so there were few H.C. kickoffs.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 4, 2019 6:10:02 GMT -5
Also not really talked about but does the new NFL rule mandating even number of players on each side of the kicker adopted by the NCAA as well?
This rule has made it nearly impossible to recover onside kicks in the NFL. The Jets failed attempt yesterday was the 24th consecutive in the league not recovered successfully by the kicking team.
Obviously the goal is to take the onside kick out of the argument as to why the kickoff is a play that cant be taken out of the game.
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Post by joe on Nov 4, 2019 7:09:24 GMT -5
They start huddled up and then send two guys flying off to the sides on either side before doing the fake and re-setting. My thought is if they do an onsides kick at that point and the ball was placed perfectly you’d have various mismatches, whether you kicked it laterally or right down the middle, because the receiving team will neither have their hands team into the field, nor will the front row be able to shift in time. Also, if a team proactively brings in some hands players on that front line it creates additional aggravation for game prep. Also hands players tend to be smaller so the front line blocking might suffer.
That being said, I don’t recall how we lined up the one time we actually attempted an onsides. Also I believe the very nature of this play is to create confusion, and perhaps to leave the opponent wondering the same thing we are now.
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Post by lou on Nov 4, 2019 7:11:00 GMT -5
[quote author=" crusader1970" source="/post/127740/I keep fearing the kicker is going to knock the ball off the tee as he fakes the on-side.[/quote] Agree, very stressful
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 4, 2019 8:08:17 GMT -5
The line-up on that attempted onsides was a traditional kick-off line-up and not from the juke line-up.
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Post by hc6774 on Nov 4, 2019 8:59:33 GMT -5
IIRC... deployed quickly after huddle over the ball... I believe it would have worked if a gusty breeze had not kept it from going ten yards.. I also remember thinking '... coach has a lot of faith in our D'
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Post by hchoops on Nov 4, 2019 9:17:18 GMT -5
Sniff out how other team will position itself for an onside kick? That's all I can think of. Or perhaps the HC strategy is to be the little boy that cried wolf so nobody takes the onside seriously when Chesney actually pulls the trigger? Or maybe each kickoff is an option play for the kicker. If the opponent doesn't position itself correctly, the onside kick will be executed? fyi, we never kicked deep v syracuse when floyd little was back there to receive. of course we didn't score that much v syracuse so there were few H.C. kickoffs. Fine memory, I remember our home game against that Cuse team, but do not recall the kick off decision. Csonka had a much bigger influence on the result than Little you must have been in high school
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Post by rgs318 on Nov 4, 2019 9:52:08 GMT -5
There were hard feelings for a time after that game. The Crusader had a headline that read "Phony Floyd score 2" (the subhead read) Csonka leads Syracuse to the win. Little was being given scores to push him for All-American after Larry Csonka did most of the work getting to the opponent's goal. The announcer for the games (Bob Gamere - a local tv commentator) cut out just the headline and sent it to Syracuse. He thought he could get some good quotes from it. [Note: He later became announcer for the NY Yankees and only lasted one year.]
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 4, 2019 10:07:41 GMT -5
Hoops, Moose was not in high school, nor I, as we were at the Little/Czonka game at Fitton. RGS nailed it as (I am purposely exaggerating here) Czonka had about 200 yards and Little had about 20 yards but “Roll ‘en Up Bennie” had designated the older - much older Little as the guy who was going to get the TD headlines after Larry brought them all the way down to the red zone.
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Post by hchoops on Nov 4, 2019 10:14:28 GMT -5
Ben S. was trying to have Little lead the nation in scoring. I think he did not succeed
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Post by hchoops on Nov 4, 2019 10:30:47 GMT -5
Yardage Csonka—166 on 23 carries Little—34 on 17 carries, 2 one yard TDs Most of Csonka’s yards were after Grieco(injury) and Girardi (ejected for fighting) were out of the game Tha Crusader game article was by Topher Bill, 67, a terrific writer(R.I.P.)
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Nov 4, 2019 11:04:13 GMT -5
There were hard feelings for a time after that game. The Crusader had a headline that read "Phony Floyd score 2" (the subhead read) Csonka leads Syracuse to the win. Little was being given scores to push him for All-American after Larry Csonka did most of the work getting to the opponent's goal. The announcer for the games (Bob Gamere - a local tv commentator) cut out just the headline and sent it to Syracuse. He thought he could get some good quotes from it. [Note: He later became announcer for the NY Yankees and only lasted one year.] Of course bee all know that Bob Gamere was a Holy Cross grad
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Post by moose1970 on Nov 4, 2019 11:22:10 GMT -5
fyi, we never kicked deep v syracuse when floyd little was back there to receive. of course we didn't score that much v syracuse so there were few H.C. kickoffs. Fine memory, I remember our home game against that Cuse team, but do not recall the kick off decision. Csonka had a much bigger influence on the result than Little you must have been in high school "you must have been in high school" FYI, 1966 football season was my freshman yr at H.C.
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Post by hchoops on Nov 4, 2019 11:30:09 GMT -5
Sorry Miscalculation
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Post by moose1970 on Nov 4, 2019 11:36:46 GMT -5
Hoops, Moose was not in high school, nor I, as we were at the Little/Czonka game at Fitton. RGS nailed it as (I am purposely exaggerating here) Czonka had about 200 yards and Little had about 20 yards but “Roll ‘en Up Bennie” had designated the older - much older Little as the guy who was going to get the TD headlines after Larry brought them all the way down to the red zone. i recall larry c as the largest player on the field that day. he ran straight ahead and was not brought down until 4-5 crusaders tackled him when syracuse offense got to within the 5 yd line a messanger guard was sent in off the syracuse bench. next play there was a hole in our d/line you could drive a truck through. floyd l simply trotted into the end zone untouched. btw, NFL D's did not have much better success in tackling larry c. (the only NFL player i heard of who was called for a personal foul while running with the football !!!)
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Post by hchoops on Nov 4, 2019 11:45:41 GMT -5
It certainly did not help HC when our best defender, Glen Grieco, had to leave the game in the second quarter with an injury and did not return.
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 4, 2019 12:19:56 GMT -5
Your quote would be taken as someone sitting next to you rather than someone living in your neighborhood.
However, I lived in suburban Syracuse for 9 years and have posted many times how I took my then 5-6 year old son to the demi-dome to watch Holy Cross play Syracuse in an opening round NIT basketball game. The "classy" Orange fans threw oranges at the Holy Cross players from the cheap seats way up. Don't recall any actually hitting any Crusaders but wasn't for lack of effort.
It didn't get any better when they announced the players and my young son got to hear words we didn't use around the house.
In our Holy Cross regalia, we were surrounded by drunks spilling their beer and gravity caused rivers of brew under our feet and my little son said "Daddy, how come everyone is rooting for the other team."
In addition to "roll 'em up Benny" calling for a timeout as the final clock wound down in order to kick a field goal against the Crusaders with a (memory a little vague here) probably a 20+ point lead, I have found that Syracuse University is classless with almost no redeeming value. I admit, I may be wrong but someone else will have to demonstrate why any Holy Cross fan should do anything but despise the Orangemen.
The only thing that brings a smile to my face was in my days at HC, while Syracuse routinely pummeled us in football, we usually made up for it on the basketball court.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Nov 4, 2019 12:26:47 GMT -5
Your quote would be taken as someone sitting next to you rather than someone living in your neighborhood. However, I lived in suburban Syracuse for 9 years and have posted many times how I took my then 5-6 year old son to the demi-dome to watch Holy Cross play Syracuse in an opening round NIT basketball game. The "classy" Orange fans threw oranges at the Holy Cross players from the cheap seats way up. Don't recall any actually hitting any Crusaders but wasn't for lack of effort. It didn't get any better when they announced the players and my young son got to hear words we didn't use around the house. In our Holy Cross regalia, we were surrounded by drunks spilling their beer and gravity caused rivers of brew under our feet and my little son said "Daddy, how come everyone is rooting for the other team." In addition to "roll 'em up Benny" calling for a timeout as the final clock wound down in order to kick a field goal against the Crusaders with a (memory a little vague here) probably a 20+ point lead, I have found that Syracuse University is classless with almost no redeeming value. I admit, I may be wrong but someone else will have to demonstrate why any Holy Cross fan should do anything but despise the Orangemen. The only thing that brings a smile to my face was in my days at HC, while Syracuse routinely pummeled us in football, we usually made up for it on the basketball court. They sound very much like the cretins who were sitting in our section at the DCU Center in 2005 (Vermont vs. Syracuse, NCAA first round). All of the profanity and put downs of Vermont players (and these weren't kids, either)…...boy did they pipe down when T.J, Sorrentine hit that one "from the parking lot!". The looks on their faces was worth the cost of the tickets and then some.
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 4, 2019 13:21:52 GMT -5
I recognize that this thread is going off the rails but in case anyone else is curious, I looked back in the archives re: Syracuse. In my 4 years, we played the Orange 3 times (no '69 game for obvious reasons). Results were: '66 (H) lost 28-6 (Czonka/Little game) '67 (A) lost 41-7 '68 (H) lost 47-0 - this is the game, I believe, when they went for the time-running-out field goal so I was being conservative when I said they called time out with a 20 point lead in order to kick the field goal. It must have been a 44 point lead. But pleased to say that in my 4 years, here's how we did against them in basketball: '66 (A) lost 91-81 '67 (H) won 95-79 '68 (A) won 88-80 '69 (H) won 104-89 As to the NIT game in the demi-dome, it was on 3/16/81 (my son would have just turned 5) and it was not the opening NIT round (we beat Southern Mississippi 56-54 4 days before) and was the second round of the NIT and lost big, 77-57. Ugh! And for those who care about NBA players from Holy Cross, Garry Witts was one of the co-captains of that team.
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Post by hchoops on Nov 4, 2019 15:38:25 GMT -5
When we lost at Manley in ‘67 their star, Vaughan Harper consistently cursed at our free throw shooters throughout the game. I heard him clearly from close seats, the refs certainly heard him. They were intimidated by him for reasons unknown. Jack Donohue protested, to no avail. He was a high school All American at Boys High in Brooklyn. When our Brooklyn Prep team scrimmaged them, he and the rest of the team were gentlemen. The lack of control by the .syracuse coach was evident.
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 4, 2019 15:55:28 GMT -5
[quote author=" crusader1970 " source="/post/127740/I keep fearing the kicker is going to knock the ball off the tee as he fakes the on-side. Agree, very stressful [/quote] Resulting in a six inch kick-off with a zero return?
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 4, 2019 16:00:01 GMT -5
hoops, I listened to that game on WCHC and recall our student announcers were astounded as they described how the Syracuse fans behind the backboard were waving their hands and other things to distract our free throw shooters and thought they should be stopped by the refs or a technical foul if not the fans ejected from the arena but they did it the entire game. They may have also said something about the cursing as well but my memory is much vaguer about that. Home court advantage I suppose.
That is now S.O.P. in every game but at the time, considered poor sportsmanship at least. So, Syracuse University was on the cutting edge of fandom I guess.
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 4, 2019 16:12:01 GMT -5
Your quote would be taken as someone sitting next to you rather than someone living in your neighborhood. However, I lived in suburban Syracuse for 9 years and have posted many times how I took my then 5-6 year old son to the demi-dome to watch Holy Cross play Syracuse in an opening round NIT basketball game. The "classy" Orange fans threw oranges at the Holy Cross players from the cheap seats way up. Don't recall any actually hitting any Crusaders but wasn't for lack of effort. It didn't get any better when they announced the players and my young son got to hear words we didn't use around the house. In our Holy Cross regalia, we were surrounded by drunks spilling their beer and gravity caused rivers of brew under our feet and my little son said "Daddy, how come everyone is rooting for the other team." In addition to "roll 'em up Benny" calling for a timeout as the final clock wound down in order to kick a field goal against the Crusaders with a (memory a little vague here) probably a 20+ point lead, I have found that Syracuse University is classless with almost no redeeming value. I admit, I may be wrong but someone else will have to demonstrate why any Holy Cross fan should do anything but despise the Orangemen. The only thing that brings a smile to my face was in my days at HC, while Syracuse routinely pummeled us in football, we usually made up for it on the basketball court. They sound very much like the cretins who were sitting in our section at the DCU Center in 2005 (Vermont vs. Syracuse, NCAA first round). All of the profanity and put downs of Vermont players (and these weren't kids, either)…...boy did they pipe down when T.J, Sorrentine hit that one "from the parking lot!". The looks on their faces was worth the cost of the tickets and then some. It was a gratifying scene outside the Centrum after that game as ecstatic UVM fans were buying extra tickets from dejected Syracuse fans for the UVM vs Michigan State game. I still remember Sorrentine's deep threes and the alley-oop to the UVM small forward.
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