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Post by sader1970 on Dec 3, 2019 8:17:44 GMT -5
So this thread has diverted from MacDonald to Tucker Carlson. Where’s hoops’ protest for this digression? 😉
IMHO, for the vast majority of people who harbor racist feelings, it is in their hearts and often invisible. I also believe that prejudices are not (forgive what may sound like a pun) black and white but shades of gray.
The overtly racist folks, like the KKK and Nazis, are not ashamed to openly espouse their feelings of supremacy and others being inherently inferior.
Others, and we won’t get into politics, are also racists, claiming they are not but their actions speak louder than their words.
And, finally, there are racists in their hearts and are smart enough to simply imply things that give them plausible deniability for their racism. They know that those who believe likewise will “get” what their meaning is and can deny that is their intent when called out by others.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 3, 2019 8:28:12 GMT -5
I hope those frequenting these parts do not go off track in an ad hominem fashion so as to deflect from the meaningful exchange of legitimate thoughts, facts, and opinions submitted here. A few comments: I for one would not watch any show if I thought the commentator were racist. I do not watch Tucker Carlson every night but I have watched him enough over the years. I do not uniformly agree/disagree and/or endorse positions and premises put forth by TC or any other commentator. I periodically watch almost every station to hear what they have to say. I will leave it at that. The college has now put out a very public statement in which it specifically and categorically states that Ms. MacDonald promotes a premise that "students of color do not belong at elite institutions." Strong statement. If in fact that is the case, who is screening speakers on campus these days and why would Ms. MacDonald have been allowed to speak if in fact she harbors such blatantly racist views? One would think that a statement supporting this premise with specific details and facts would have been shared with the members of The Fenwick Review and none of this would have ever transpired. On the other hand, I think back to my days in lower Carlin and lower O' Kane in which some of my favorite Jesuits would respond to a statement of that sort, "Ok, scholar, support your premise and make your case." By putting out that specific assertion, has the college potentially taken a bad situation and just made it worse in an attempt to bring cover and curry favor with the alumni who have clearly overwhelmed the Alumni and Development Offices? I would not be surprised if we hear more from Ms. MacDonald's camp in regard to the college's statement. If/when that happens, the college should not be surprised. In anticipation of that, I would think the college and specifically Ms. Murray should preemptively put out its reasoning to "support its premise and make its case" as Jesuit education has instructed all Crusaders across the entire spectrum of ideas over the life of the college. If in fact Ms. Murray does so, she may be a shining light for all of us both on and off campus. I hope so. If the powers that be though would like to now conveniently try to sweep this under the rug in the same fashion that the Professor Liew debacle was handled, then opportunity lost for all concerned and especially our current students. #LEADERSHIP Excellent points. Clearly, the planned walkout was not based on anything that Ms. MacDonald said that evening (since it was carefully planned prior to her speech). And equally clearly, Mrs. MacDonald made no such statement along the lines of "students of color do not belong at elite institutions.". Since the student protest/reaction would seem a very odd and inexplicable reaction to Ms. MacDonald's rather bland speech, Ms. Barlock is compelled to explain that the very odd and inexplicable reaction was a reaction to Ms. McDonald's premise. (It is highly suggestive that Ms. Barlock could not claim the very odd and otherwise inexplicable reaction was to actual words written in Ms. MacDonald's book.) We await Ms. Barlock's explanation as to precisely how (and where) Ms. Macdonald has expressed her premise that "students of color do not belong at elite institutions." It remains a possibility that somebody invented this jarring premise to justify the student reaction to her non-jarring ideas on oppression and privilege theory. [As a conservative speaking on a famously progressive campus there is no doubt Ms. MacDonald anticipated the usual racist/sexist/homophobic smears and doubtlessly has profited thereby. It is a shame we were so predictable. Think of all the PR she would have missed if students and the interested public had just attended and quietly asked questions in the Q and A.) (This is not to suggest racism/sexism/homophobia does not exist in the US and throughout the world.)
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Post by Crucis#1 on Dec 3, 2019 8:28:33 GMT -5
I was hoping to find the next “Bash HC, I am a victim of those meanie Crusaders but in true reality, I won’t admit, but I really did benefit from Diversity at Yale” speaking engagement. Unfortunately none are appearing currently. Any idea where she will surface next? Is she represented by IMG or Endeavor Group? Maybe should be WWE?
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Post by Crucis#1 on Dec 3, 2019 8:55:15 GMT -5
So this thread has diverted from MacDonald to Tucker Carlson. Where’s hoops’ protest for this digression? 😉 IMHO, for the vast majority of people who harbor racist feelings, it is in their hearts and often invisible. I also believe that prejudices are not (forgive what may sound like a pun) black and white but shades of gray. The overtly racist folks, like the KKK and Nazis, are not ashamed to openly espouse their feelings of supremacy and others being inherently inferior. Others, and we won’t get into politics, are also racists, claiming they are not but their actions speak louder than their words. And, finally, there are racists in their hearts and are smart enough to simply imply things that give them plausible deniability for their racism. They know that those who believe likewise will “get” what their meaning is and can deny that is their intent when called out by others. Duck Test - Abductive Reasoning “If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck”.
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Post by Tom on Dec 3, 2019 9:52:44 GMT -5
My own personal wild unsubstantiated speculation:
MacDonald says something like "No one here is oppressed. You don't know how lucky you are to have the opportunity to attend an elite school"
Some listener, probably from a group that MacDonald is accused of hating, hears they're lucky to be there and if it's luck they didn't earn it and if they didn't earn it they don't deserve it and if they don't deserve it they don't belong.
This sort of scenario could have happened months ago at another school. I think it unlikely that anyone who speaks publicly at places other than KKK rallies would ever say students of color do not belong at elite institutions. I think somewhere someone made a logical leap to get to that place. MacDonald might be a homophobic racist, I don't know. But I do think in general the term "hate" is thrown around too quickly for differences of opinion
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 3, 2019 10:16:36 GMT -5
I would have thought that any representative of HC would also avoid throwing such a statement out there and attributing it to someone without any evidence. But, I would have been wrong.
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Post by alum on Dec 3, 2019 10:22:53 GMT -5
This took me under two minutes to find. www.city-journal.org/college-admissions-cheating-scandalThe salient section tells us: What the pay-to-play admissions scam does not demonstrate, however, is that “legacy” admissions are somehow more corrupt than race-based affirmative-action admission policies—which seems to be the primary lesson that left-wing commentators and politicians are taking from the scandal—or that meritocracy is a “myth” that has now been debunked. Racial preferences are a far more significant deviation from academic meritocracy than legacy preferences, which are not even implicated in the current scandal. An underreported but salient detail in the Singer scam is that he “falsified students’ ethnicities,” according to the New York Times, because “some families and students perceive their racial backgrounds can hurt or aid their chances of getting in to schools that consider race in their admissions decisions.” This is not a mere perception; it is the truth. At Harvard, legacies are better candidates on average than other students, Harvard’s Dean of Admissions William Fitzsimmons said in a 2011 interview. Nevertheless, blacks get a bigger boost than legacies, despite lower academic scores. In fact, the boost from being black is so strong that Harvard limits the contributions of non-race factors to a black applicant’s composite admissions rating. Just being black quadruples your chances of admission to Harvard. The university claims that if race were not a factor, then the percentage of blacks at the school would fall to 0.6 percent, compared with the current 14 percent. The Asian share of the student body would be at least 43 percent, by Harvard’s own estimate, compared with 18 percent, if race were removed from the admissions equation.
HC's memo to class agents yesterday was not perfectly crafted. It said, " They were responding to her premise that discrimination no longer exists and students of color do not belong at elite institutions."
The question is whether McDonald has written something that says that blacks don't belong. A fair reading of the text I posted above would suggest that, when generalizing, McDonald comes close to saying that, although she doesn't go all the way. The College could have written: "Some students who participated told us that they were responding to Ms. McDonald's writings and statements which suggest that discrimination no longer exists and that some less qualified students of color are being admitted to elite institutions and thereby disadvantaging some students from majority groups."One of the problems with the portion of the College's statement is that it generalizes about the intentions of 250 to 300 students. I am sure that there were nuances in their reasons for protesting.
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Post by sarasota on Dec 3, 2019 11:53:27 GMT -5
My attitude towards openness to radical speech is 100% open. I would allow Hitler at HC. I take as literally and figuratively true: "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me." College students must attain 100% confidence in their own mind and values.......then words will never hurt them. Then, Hitlerian talk will be a learning experience even though quite disagreeable.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 3, 2019 12:09:42 GMT -5
/\ That is classical liberalism. Long since dead on the college campus but, fortunately, still the law of the land.
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Post by td128 on Dec 4, 2019 5:09:00 GMT -5
This took me under two minutes to find. www.city-journal.org/college-admissions-cheating-scandalThe salient section tells us: What the pay-to-play admissions scam does not demonstrate, however, is that “legacy” admissions are somehow more corrupt than race-based affirmative-action admission policies—which seems to be the primary lesson that left-wing commentators and politicians are taking from the scandal—or that meritocracy is a “myth” that has now been debunked. Racial preferences are a far more significant deviation from academic meritocracy than legacy preferences, which are not even implicated in the current scandal. An underreported but salient detail in the Singer scam is that he “falsified students’ ethnicities,” according to the New York Times, because “some families and students perceive their racial backgrounds can hurt or aid their chances of getting in to schools that consider race in their admissions decisions.” This is not a mere perception; it is the truth. At Harvard, legacies are better candidates on average than other students, Harvard’s Dean of Admissions William Fitzsimmons said in a 2011 interview. Nevertheless, blacks get a bigger boost than legacies, despite lower academic scores. In fact, the boost from being black is so strong that Harvard limits the contributions of non-race factors to a black applicant’s composite admissions rating. Just being black quadruples your chances of admission to Harvard. The university claims that if race were not a factor, then the percentage of blacks at the school would fall to 0.6 percent, compared with the current 14 percent. The Asian share of the student body would be at least 43 percent, by Harvard’s own estimate, compared with 18 percent, if race were removed from the admissions equation.
HC's memo to class agents yesterday was not perfectly crafted. It said, " They were responding to her premise that discrimination no longer exists and students of color do not belong at elite institutions."
The question is whether McDonald has written something that says that blacks don't belong. A fair reading of the text I posted above would suggest that, when generalizing, McDonald comes close to saying that, although she doesn't go all the way. The College could have written: "Some students who participated told us that they were responding to Ms. McDonald's writings and statements which suggest that discrimination no longer exists and that some less qualified students of color are being admitted to elite institutions and thereby disadvantaging some students from majority groups."One of the problems with the portion of the College's statement is that it generalizes about the intentions of 250 to 300 students. I am sure that there were nuances in their reasons for protesting. Alum, Thank you very much for this insight. Certainly seems like a potentially logical line of reasoning. There is no lack of commentary on the college admissions process. The statement put forth by the college seems to jump to a very aggressive conclusion. Based on the statement alone, I am not so sure our former Jebbie friends would give those who wrote it a passing grade in Logic (one of my all time favorite classes at HC) let alone critical reading and writing. Whatever happened to 'pursuit of the truth' and 'commitment to excellence'?
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Post by Crucis#1 on Dec 4, 2019 7:35:11 GMT -5
With the exception of a few of us, that I know and can vouched for personally, how many of us have talked to current student on campus at HC to understand their true mood and feelings? One of the observations that I have in talking to some, is their feelings identified as of oppression is really based on their individual depression regarding their lives. This issue is not unique to students at HC, but is seen on all colleges and universities campuses. Exploring your possible opportunities as well as searching for your future path can be daunting for someone at that age. It is particularly acute for minority students who may not have close family mentors or counseling that can help them through the journey. It is easy to pontificate why they should do this and that when you are old and settled in your careers and family, Not so easy when you are at that stage in your life. If you don’t understand you lack Empathy.
Many adults should be ashamed, as they have instead of offering a helping hand, have used and exploited the student frailty to their own economic or psychological benefit. Prime example that we are all aware, the abuse scandal.
I have a HC classmate who was abused by a priest in Massachusetts. We both lived in Beaven as freshmen.Very nice person, but you could sense something was not quite on par. He left HC after freshmen year. Many years later I saw him on a prominent national talk show discussing what had transpired when he was an altar boy. The system failed him, and his depression became his oppression. No one was their to help him at school. No one would have believed or accept the facts in the late 1960’s.
So instead of being on campuses lecturing of why they are not oppressed, maybe the deniers to “oppression/depression” should be helping to set up a foundation to truly explore and mediate the depression/oppression issue at colleges and universities. One has to look at how the fraternities cohort at schools intimidate their pledge class into submission for the amusement of the older members. An absolute disgrace and certainly an oppressive environment.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 4, 2019 8:12:24 GMT -5
crusis#1 - A most interesting post. As a counselor who has worked with students of all ages for many decades now, I have seen what you are describing. In many cases (not all), I find that people rename depression in ways that help them to cope. After all, if one is depressed, and it can be attributed to some other person or group, it frees the individual from any responsibility for their own situation and associated feelings (or lack of feelings). There is no need to feel "guilty" about being depressed (as some do) or to try to hide the depression. If it is seen as "opression" the cause of it becomes external to the person...and a strong feeling of anger may replace the feeling of guilt.
I have started reading MacDonald's latest book. Unlike the opinions of some, I find her comments to be well referenced (there are about 140 references in the work). It is filled with anecdotes and all are documented. All of these did take place, but her conclusions about their cause or effects might have been more fully documented/proven. I'll post on that again down the road when I have finished reading the book. One point I find is that she uses anecdotes much as Jesus used parables - to teach a point she is trying to make. Of course, by themselves, they do not "prove" anything" ion terms of universal; principles, but they do show why she has some oof the views she holds. (Since she is an atheist, I wonder how she would like being compared to Jesus?)
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Post by td128 on Dec 4, 2019 8:20:49 GMT -5
Crucis,
Your points are very well taken. Colleges and universities may or may not want to admit it but mental health on campus is IMO in crisis. Many reasons can be assigned for this reality but to deny it would be foolish. Most colleges do not have anywhere near the staff needed to address this issue. A current Crusader near and dear to my heart developed a business plan and pitched it in Holy Cross' Shark Tank competition and to its Ignite Incubator for further development to address this glaring need. The feedback he received from those on and off campus was very supportive. A junior year abroad has the plans on the sidelines currently but to be resurrected in fall 2020.
So what might be done? Increased mentoring/support both on and off campus.
Those in positions of authority who use their influence for their own selfish desires and/or to advance unhealthy if not immoral behaviors should be outed, addressed, exposed, and if need be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
In light of that, "Do those advising students at HC think/believe that protests of the sort that transpired at HC a few weeks back increase stress levels and anxiety, have no impact, or alleviate the same?"
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Post by hcpride on Dec 4, 2019 9:08:11 GMT -5
/\ There is no doubt depression cuts across all socio-economic, race, class and gender divides. And the students and staff at Holy Cross are no exception. Mental health is a serious issue.
(I don't know if I see a connection between that and the appearance and reaction to any particular speaker showing up at Holy Cross. Whether somebody deliberately or inadvertently invented a speaker-related 'premise' to trigger a reaction or trigger particular student stress/anxiety levels is another matter altogether.)
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Post by moose1970 on Dec 4, 2019 12:04:06 GMT -5
With the exception of a few of us, that I know and can vouched for personally, how many of us have talked to current student on campus at HC to understand their true mood and feelings? One of the observations that I have in talking to some, is their feelings identified as of oppression is really based on their individual depression regarding their lives. This issue is not unique to students at HC, but is seen on all colleges and universities campuses. Exploring your possible opportunities as well as searching for your future path can be daunting for someone at that age. It is particularly acute for minority students who may not have close family mentors or counseling that can help them through the journey. It is easy to pontificate why they should do this and that when you are old and settled in your careers and family, Not so easy when you are at that stage in your life. If you don’t understand you lack Empathy. Many adults should be ashamed, as they have instead of offering a helping hand, have used and exploited the student frailty to their own economic or psychological benefit. Prime example that we are all aware, the abuse scandal. I have a HC classmate who was abused by a priest in Massachusetts. We both lived in Beaven as freshmen.Very nice person, but you could sense something was not quite on par. He left HC after freshmen year. Many years later I saw him on a prominent national talk show discussing what had transpired when he was an altar boy. The system failed him, and his depression became his oppression. No one was their to help him at school. No one would have believed or accept the facts in the late 1960’s. So instead of being on campuses lecturing of why they are not oppressed, maybe the deniers to “oppression/depression” should be helping to set up a foundation to truly explore and mediate the depression/oppression issue at colleges and universities. One has to look at how the fraternities cohort at schools intimidate their pledge class into submission for the amusement of the older members. An absolute disgrace and certainly an oppressive environment. Many adults should be ashamed, as they have instead of offering a helping hand, have used and exploited the student frailty to their own economic or psychological benefit. Prime example that we are all aware, the abuse scandal. another way that vulnerable college age individuals can be exploited is through brain washing/mind control/coercive persuasion techniques (choose your poison) practiced by cults, esp religious based cults. it appears that persons raised with a strong religious background (belief in heaven & hell, good & evil, salvation, etc.) are more more vulnerable even if they have already rejected the tenents of their religion.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Dec 4, 2019 12:54:55 GMT -5
Many adults should be ashamed, as they have instead of offering a helping hand, have used and exploited the student frailty to their own economic or psychological benefit. Prime example that we are all aware, the abuse scandal. another way that vulnerable college age individuals can be exploited is through brain washing/mind control/coercive persuasion techniques (choose your poison) practiced by cults, esp religious based cults. it appears that persons raised with a strong religious background (belief in heaven & hell, good & evil, salvation, etc.) are more more vulnerable even if they have already rejected the tenents of their religion. Totally agree Moose. While in college was exposed to it, from several groups, saw coercive techniques and manipulation being used regarding group think, once resistance to their tyranny occurs, people were ostracized for not joining in lock step. Happens everywhere in society. Lord of the Flies is evident in both small and large group dynamics across the spectrum of societies. The key to overcoming this oppression is resistance. Takes a strong person to swim against the tide of suppression. Think back to some of your experiences going back to even grammar school, Boy Scouts, High School College and in Business. Lapse in ethics can be attributed many times to mob mentality.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 4, 2019 13:26:56 GMT -5
With the exception of a few of us, that I know and can vouched for personally, how many of us have talked to current student on campus at HC to understand their true mood and feelings? One of the observations that I have in talking to some, is their feelings identified as of oppression is really based on their individual depression regarding their lives. This issue is not unique to students at HC, but is seen on all colleges and universities campuses. Exploring your possible opportunities as well as searching for your future path can be daunting for someone at that age. It is particularly acute for minority students who may not have close family mentors or counseling that can help them through the journey. It is easy to pontificate why they should do this and that when you are old and settled in your careers and family, Not so easy when you are at that stage in your life. If you don’t understand you lack Empathy. Many adults should be ashamed, as they have instead of offering a helping hand, have used and exploited the student frailty to their own economic or psychological benefit. Prime example that we are all aware, the abuse scandal. I have a HC classmate who was abused by a priest in Massachusetts. We both lived in Beaven as freshmen.Very nice person, but you could sense something was not quite on par. He left HC after freshmen year. Many years later I saw him on a prominent national talk show discussing what had transpired when he was an altar boy. The system failed him, and his depression became his oppression. No one was their to help him at school. No one would have believed or accept the facts in the late 1960’s. So instead of being on campuses lecturing of why they are not oppressed, maybe the deniers to “oppression/depression” should be helping to set up a foundation to truly explore and mediate the depression/oppression issue at colleges and universities. One has to look at how the fraternities cohort at schools intimidate their pledge class into submission for the amusement of the older members. An absolute disgrace and certainly an oppressive environment. another way that vulnerable college age individuals can be exploited is through brain washing/mind control/coercive persuasion techniques (choose your poison) practiced by cults, esp religious based cults. You could argue that this is currently taking place in higher education today. As a relatively recent college grad, I had several professors that clearly had an agenda when he/she instructed a class and certain viewpoints were shunned. Because I experienced it firsthand, I know that I had grades on papers suffer because my argument did not align with the professor's thinking. I am sure this has only gotten worse over the past ten years.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 4, 2019 13:28:58 GMT -5
My favorite subject at HC and the one I did best in was social psychology class.
My one takeaway was that one person alone is difficult to go against the crowd but having even 1 more person in support made a group and exponentially improved the ability to resist the larger group.
That is perhaps why “Twelve Angry Men” is my favorite movie. The one with Henry Fonda, Lee J Cobb, E. G. Marshall, Jack Klugman, et. al, Not the re-make.
It is a character-driven movie with 95% of it in one room, a jury room.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 4, 2019 13:38:08 GMT -5
A Top 10 movie of all time—-really makes one think. “I just think we should talk about it a little”
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Post by Crucis#1 on Dec 4, 2019 14:10:51 GMT -5
Who taught the social psychology class? I may have had the same Prof. 🥴
By the way, toxic teachers are a problem irrespective of their political affiliation. I experienced it and so did several friends and relatives at a number of schools. Case in point, I had schedule to take a course in a grad program, that I was looking forward to study. One class with him was enough for me and I changed classes to a prof who was wonderful teacher and not in my opinion a prof who was a narcissist. Unfortunately academic deans are unaware of such problems until it reaches a critical mass. Another case in point, Doctor at Michigan State, Larry Nassar. Years of abuse, in the gymnastics program with no one stepping forward to resolve in a timely manner. Same issue at Penn State Footballl that we all are familiar.
Unfortunately many students, particularly first generation in college have not been taught to stand up to so called authority figures. Toxic professors and their bias can really psychologically abuse their students. Many cases it does cause their depression regarding academic achievement.
Mental Health issues on campus is a crisis that has not been properly addressed.
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Post by moose1970 on Dec 4, 2019 14:33:46 GMT -5
another way that vulnerable college age individuals can be exploited is through brain washing/mind control/coercive persuasion techniques (choose your poison) practiced by cults, esp religious based cults. You could argue that this is currently taking place in higher education today. As a relatively recent college grad, I had several professors that clearly had an agenda when he/she instructed a class and certain viewpoints were shunned. Because I experienced it firsthand, I know that I had grades on papers suffer because my argument did not align with the professor's thinking. I am sure this has only gotten worse over the past ten years. i do not doubt what you are saying and sorry to learn of your experiences but what i am talking about goes much deeper than a overbearing doctrinal college instructor. at one point i assisted families who had adult children who became members of the unification church (UC), i.e. moonies trying to reconnect with thier family member in the UC. during the process i met a number of ex-moonies who were engaged in deprogramming and some were prosecuted for kidnapping, etc. this topic is extremely involved and not easy to explain in this format. if interested in the topic i refer you to a book, "lord of the second advent" or a movie based on actual events, "ticket to heaven".
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 17, 2019 14:07:56 GMT -5
On his Commentary on radio today, Bill O'Reilly covered the MacDonald visit to Holy Cross stating his belief that HC was highly affected by political correctness. He opened by saying that his father had attended HC during the war.
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Post by Chu Chu on Dec 17, 2019 14:24:03 GMT -5
"his belief that HC was highly affected by political correctness"
And how would he know? This just fits his preconceived narrative.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Dec 17, 2019 17:59:32 GMT -5
I heard a story (this would go way back) that Norman Vincent Peale's daughter was dating a HC student, and one day, Rev. Peale was driving his daughter either to or from HC, and in the course of his doing this, a unnamed Jesuit came across Rev. Peale, recognized him, and ordered him off the campus.
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Post by Tom on Dec 18, 2019 11:42:54 GMT -5
Letter to the editor in the Telegram
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