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Post by jsherman on Dec 1, 2019 22:28:04 GMT -5
The non-medical red shirt is a perversion of what college is all about: academics. The rare PL athlete who goes to the NFL doesn’t need a fifth year to show their talent just as the big-school guys don’t. Why should the athlete bound for the work world spend an extra year at school? Where is the value to the school? Sports don’t make money in the league so even that perverse justification doesn’t exist. Until next year ... This isn't about the NFL. This is about being competitive. If you don't want to be competitive, then no more discussion on this board about our OC or anything else. We should simply say, good job? Loss or win.
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Post by jsherman on Dec 1, 2019 22:33:08 GMT -5
In your opinion, should Holy Cross drop football? College football is not declining, if anything it is gaining in popularity compared to the NFL. This is absolute crazy talk. Not one single shred of evidence would point to the decline of football. Exact opposite. They're doing all they can do in physics to keep football afoot.. leave the abasement to the politicians and severe liberals. This is football.
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Post by bison137 on Dec 1, 2019 22:46:39 GMT -5
It would seem to me that the Patriot league is setting up any incoming freshman at the QB position to not be able to play freshman year and because of that lose a year of eligibility. If this is the case, why would any serious talent consider the Patriot league? While that could be an issue, it is a fact that over the previous nine years, three QB's received the PL Rookie of the Year award.
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Post by jsherman on Dec 1, 2019 22:48:51 GMT -5
One last thought. Holy Cross is an athletic school. The majority of students are athletes of some sort. I've paid attention..
If they are that athletic (they are), then they want to be competitive. The people that pay the bills want them to be competitive.
Yes academics are important and always will be. But someone should start stressing the importance of policy and how it affects competitive capability.
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Post by jsherman on Dec 1, 2019 22:57:11 GMT -5
It would seem to me that the Patriot league is setting up any incoming freshman at the QB position to not be able to play freshman year and because of that lose a year of eligibility. If this is the case, why would any serious talent consider the Patriot league? While that could be an issue, it is a fact that over the previous nine years, three QB's received the PL Rookie of the Year award. Ok. Times are changing. (change is always difficult) We are bringing in transfers (this is happening in NCAA basketball and football). With every transfer, eligibility is a concern. Looking for immediate impact. The recruiting that Chesney is doing is spectacular. Every freshman walking in the door wants to play. Not every freshman is ready. Get them the extra semester to start early and be with the team. Build the Players. Or if it's just about academics, then we all sit back and celebrate the losses and the wins with trophies for all. Especially when they graduate in four years.
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Post by moose1970 on Dec 1, 2019 23:11:02 GMT -5
wow! this post is a real eye opener for me. i had no clue there was such a thing as early high school graduation to start playing football before the fall season.
i can just imagine all the fraud, nonsence, trickery, that goes on to make this happen, "quick, enroll him in an online high school to get him a diploma ASAP." etc.
another blow to the fallacy of the "college student/athlete"
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Post by gks on Dec 1, 2019 23:21:17 GMT -5
How many regular students take more than 8 semesters to graduate? Are they shunned out of school if they can't graduate in 8? A not insignificant number of regular students take more than 8 semesters to graduate for a variety of reasons. Academic struggles (taking too many Fs and/or Ws), personal issues, deaths in the family, disciplinary issues, illness, switching majors late. It happens for a variety of reasons. As far as it relates to football red-shirting, I have a hard time believing that the academic integrity of the college would be compromised because a dozen guys every year extend their scholarship Holy Cross education into a 9th semester. Even if not required, I am sure that many a student athlete would take it upon themselves to add a concentration, minor or double major with the additional credit hours available to them. Basketball medical red-shirts not only add a 9th but also a 10th semester to their HC education because the season traverses fall and spring. Thanks for the info. If this is the case then what the heck is the problem? If you allow regular students to do it then allow athletes. Stop treating them differently. A no-brainer.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 1, 2019 23:22:47 GMT -5
wow! this post is a real eye opener for me. i had no clue there was such a thing as early high school graduation to start playing football before the fall season. i can just imagine all the fraud, nonsence, trickery, that goes on to make this happen, "quick, enroll him in an online high school to get him a diploma ASAP." etc. another blow to the fallacy of the "college student/athlete" As to greenshirts (athlete enrolls in school a semester early), grayshirts (athlete waits an extra semester to become a full-time student) or even blueshirts (unrecruited athlete is put on scholarship at start of freshman practice and it counts on next year's recruit total), is the PL against them because they are afraid of them, unfamiliar with the practices, or simply doesn't want to give the schools the same competitive edge enjoyed by the CAA, NEC, and every other conference but the Ivy? I think we sell the schools short by assuming if there were redshirts that PL schools would suddenly be teeming with aspiring parks and rec majors unaccustomed to performing in the classroom. There's no evidence that this would take place. The HC web site itself says that "To meet the requirements for graduation, all students must complete both 32 semester courses successfully and record a minimum of eight semesters of full-time study. (emphasis added). A redshirt is essentially a ninth semester, nothing more.
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Post by gks on Dec 1, 2019 23:28:00 GMT -5
wow! this post is a real eye opener for me. i had no clue there was such a thing as early high school graduation to start playing football before the fall season. i can just imagine all the fraud, nonsence, trickery, that goes on to make this happen, "quick, enroll him in an online high school to get him a diploma ASAP." etc. another blow to the fallacy of the "college student/athlete" This has happened with some frequency in CMass over the last couple of years. The Lindstrom brothers both did it and enrolled at BC in what would have been the spring of their senior year. Sean McKeon, tight end at Michigan, did it also. He along with the Lindstroms are from Shepherd Hill. Isaac Yiadom from Doherty in Worcester did it as well. He graduated from BC and is now with the Broncos. From what I understand the kids named above took extra classes at area colleges and through their high schools. Nothing nefarious about it as all were and are excellent students. I'm sure there are some bad apples but please stop painting with a broad brush. There are many, many more kids like the ones mentioned who care and go about it the right way. THEY ARE NOT ALL DUMMIES.
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Post by moose1970 on Dec 1, 2019 23:33:13 GMT -5
While that could be an issue, it is a fact that over the previous nine years, three QB's received the PL Rookie of the Year award. Ok. Times are changing. (change is always difficult) We are bringing in transfers (this is happening in NCAA basketball and football). With every transfer, eligibility is a concern. Looking for immediate impact. The recruiting that Chesney is doing is spectacular. Every freshman walking in the door wants to play. Not every freshman is ready. Get them the extra semester to start early and be with the team. Build the Players. Or if it's just about academics, then we all sit back and celebrate the losses and the wins with trophies for all. Especially when they graduate in four years. Build the Players. asking a high school football player to step up early and start playing at the college level (FBS or FCS) is a world apart from accepting a high school math whiz to enroll in advance calculus, etc.
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Post by gks on Dec 1, 2019 23:35:35 GMT -5
Ok. Times are changing. (change is always difficult) We are bringing in transfers (this is happening in NCAA basketball and football). With every transfer, eligibility is a concern. Looking for immediate impact. The recruiting that Chesney is doing is spectacular. Every freshman walking in the door wants to play. Not every freshman is ready. Get them the extra semester to start early and be with the team. Build the Players. Or if it's just about academics, then we all sit back and celebrate the losses and the wins with trophies for all. Especially when they graduate in four years. Build the Players. asking a high school football player to step up early and start playing at the college level (FBS or FCS) is a world apart from accepting a high school math whiz to enroll in advance calculus, etc. Just made the argument for redshirting.
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Post by moose1970 on Dec 1, 2019 23:46:48 GMT -5
wow! this post is a real eye opener for me. i had no clue there was such a thing as early high school graduation to start playing football before the fall season. i can just imagine all the fraud, nonsence, trickery, that goes on to make this happen, "quick, enroll him in an online high school to get him a diploma ASAP." etc. another blow to the fallacy of the "college student/athlete" This has happened with some frequency in CMass over the last couple of years. The Lindstrom brothers both did it and enrolled at BC in what would have been the spring of their senior year. Sean McKeon, tight end at Michigan, did it also. He along with the Lindstroms are from Shepherd Hill. Isaac Yiadom from Doherty in Worcester did it as well. He graduated from BC and is now with the Broncos. From what I understand the kids named above took extra classes at area colleges and through their high schools. Nothing nefarious about it as all were and are excellent students. I'm sure there are some bad apples but please stop painting with a broad brush. There are many, many more kids like the ones mentioned who care and go about it the right way. THEY ARE NOT ALL DUMMIES. THEY ARE NOT ALL DUMMIES.
did not intend to imply that any of the players were "dummies" my concern is that players are being used to develop the football program without regard for scholastic achievement. this early high school graduation program will do nothing to improve the overall 50% graduation rate for college football players. now that needs to change..
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Post by gks on Dec 1, 2019 23:56:46 GMT -5
This has happened with some frequency in CMass over the last couple of years. The Lindstrom brothers both did it and enrolled at BC in what would have been the spring of their senior year. Sean McKeon, tight end at Michigan, did it also. He along with the Lindstroms are from Shepherd Hill. Isaac Yiadom from Doherty in Worcester did it as well. He graduated from BC and is now with the Broncos. From what I understand the kids named above took extra classes at area colleges and through their high schools. Nothing nefarious about it as all were and are excellent students. I'm sure there are some bad apples but please stop painting with a broad brush. There are many, many more kids like the ones mentioned who care and go about it the right way. THEY ARE NOT ALL DUMMIES. THEY ARE NOT ALL DUMMIES.
did not intend to imply that any of the players were "dummies" my concern is that players are being used to develop the football program without regard for scholastic achievement. this early high school graduation program will do nothing to improve the overall 50% graduation rate for college football players. now that needs to change.. Well I can tell you that both Chris Lindstrom and Isaac Yiadom graduated in 8 semesters. Used the spring semester as their redshirt time. Got into the program and were able to participate in spring ball. If kids want to graduate they'll graduate and that's true for all students.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 2, 2019 7:30:34 GMT -5
ny -Is your concern about the 9th semester more for football or the student's academic enrichment? Can't be both because if that were the case, you would want the school to require 9 semesters of course for all students. Be honest. It is about football and providing more time for the players at HC. Slippery slope. As for redshirting believe it. Not done in the PL, the IL(perish the thought) nor in any other high academic league on any level as far as I know. All the educational professionals in these high academic leagues are wrong? 43 - The lefty IL schools will fail and the righty Villanova is a good role model? The Ivies vs. Villanova? LoveHC The concern is about football. While additional academic enrichment could be a result of a 9th academic semester for red-shirted football players, it's not the motive behind allowing this option. My point is that I don't think the ability to red-shirt a dozen guys every year does anything to tarnish the sanctity of the liberal arts education at Holy Cross. As has been pointed out, numerous non-athletes take more than 8 semesters to graduate for various reasons.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 2, 2019 7:39:51 GMT -5
Were you against the PL changing its rules and allowing full schollies a few years ago? . Just straightening out (as best I could with my computer skills) an earlier post (looked like your answer ['yes'] was my answer).
It certainly is consistent that if you are against medical redshirts and full schollies you would be against non-medical redshirts.
I figure that as long as we are now competing against FBS, CAA, etc. we would continue to adjust as needed.
At the same time I could see a consistent argument to pare down to a D-3 level (like MIT, NESCACS, University of Chicago, etc.) to reinforce the primacy of academics (and time-travel to forestall the Luth construction) and re-direct valuable resources to such an end.
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Post by joe on Dec 2, 2019 9:25:16 GMT -5
What defines HC's academic integrity is the quality of the student-athletes we accept under the AI, not a 9th semester. This will not change. For football players (and I have worked with many) the time commitment and level of performance expected of them is only getting more intense, as are their academic requirements. Policy simply needs to adapt to reality if we want to continue playing FCS football.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 2, 2019 9:29:36 GMT -5
The people that pay the bills want them to be competitive. I'm not sure about that. I don't think many of the higher ups at HC care whether the athletic teams win or lose. They like to brag about the 25% participating rate of students at the Division I level, but winning? That's secondary. In fact, win too much and they may get a little uncomfortable at the thought that HC is prioritizing athletics / winning more than other things on campus. I am not being hyperbolic.
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Post by lou on Dec 2, 2019 9:32:29 GMT -5
In case you missed it, in a rivalry game last week, D3 Ithaca played SUNY Cortland at Met Life Stadium...attendance 45,000
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Post by hcpride on Dec 2, 2019 9:34:30 GMT -5
The people that pay the bills want them to be competitive. I'm not sure about that. I don't think many of the higher ups at HC care whether the athletic teams win or lose. They like to brag about the 25% participating rate of students at the Division I level, but winning? That's secondary. In fact, win too much and they may get a little uncomfortable at the thought that HC is prioritizing athletics / winning more than other things on campus. I am not being hyperbolic. I agree that our participation (requisite coaching, players, and facilities) in D-1 sports is a point of pride and is currently seen by admin as a core part of our identity. We don't have dollars and desire to be competitive (challenge for championships) in most of our sports. Nor do we.
Football is one sport where I do think we are trying to win at this point. (We will have to prod the PL to adjust and make this a possibility.)
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Post by jsherman on Dec 2, 2019 10:07:53 GMT -5
So with all this. Is their an approach that can be made to the PL to make a change?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Dec 2, 2019 10:10:44 GMT -5
How many regular students take more than 8 semesters to graduate? Are they shunned out of school if they can't graduate in 8? I am not aware of full-time students -- other than those in a 3:2 program, e.g., dual degree from Columbia and HC, being given nine or ten semesters to get their diploma. HC has a few part-time students, I do not know whether they are matriculating to get a degree, or simply taking courses. I believe HC gives you five years to complete the eight semesters. If a student has failed enough courses that he or she does not have enough credit hours to graduate, that student does not get a fifth year. The student may take the failed courses at another school and have the credits, assume there was a passing grade, transferred in. This is unlike the University of California, where some degree programs take five years to graduate. This is because courses in those programs are oversubscribed and the student may have to wait a year before taking a required course.
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Post by timholycross on Dec 2, 2019 10:15:11 GMT -5
It would seem to me that the Patriot league is setting up any incoming freshman at the QB position to not be able to play freshman year and because of that lose a year of eligibility. If this is the case, why would any serious talent consider the Patriot league? While that could be an issue, it is a fact that over the previous nine years, three QB's received the PL Rookie of the Year award. If you have a successful program, we're talking maybe once every 7-10 years you have to start a freshman QB; and one or two other years you have to have a freshman QB ready to play. There are other positions where your thoughts make sense, however.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 2, 2019 10:29:51 GMT -5
How many regular students take more than 8 semesters to graduate? Are they shunned out of school if they can't graduate in 8? I am not aware of full-time students -- other than those in a 3:2 program, e.g., dual degree from Columbia and HC, being given nine or ten semesters to get their diploma. HC has a few part-time students, I do not know whether they are matriculating to get a degree, or simply taking courses. I believe HC gives you five years to complete the eight semesters. If a student has failed enough courses that he or she does not have enough credit hours to graduate, that student does not get a fifth year. The student may take the failed courses at another school and have the credits, assume there was a passing grade, transferred in. This is unlike the University of California, where some degree programs take five years to graduate. This is because courses in those programs are oversubscribed and the student may have to wait a year before taking a required course. There are many schools that do all they can to make sure students stay for a full 5 years (10 semesters). Delaware is know for this. They schedule four courses a semester for all students - unless someone (typically a parent who pays the bills) complains. They also try to block students from registering for required courses to be able to graduate in 4 years. I find this unethical - to say the least.
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Post by gks on Dec 2, 2019 10:55:38 GMT -5
How many regular students take more than 8 semesters to graduate? Are they shunned out of school if they can't graduate in 8? I am not aware of full-time students -- other than those in a 3:2 program, e.g., dual degree from Columbia and HC, being given nine or ten semesters to get their diploma. HC has a few part-time students, I do not know whether they are matriculating to get a degree, or simply taking courses. I believe HC gives you five years to complete the eight semesters. If a student has failed enough courses that he or she does not have enough credit hours to graduate, that student does not get a fifth year. The student may take the failed courses at another school and have the credits, assume there was a passing grade, transferred in. This is unlike the University of California, where some degree programs take five years to graduate. This is because courses in those programs are oversubscribed and the student may have to wait a year before taking a required course. Why should student-athletes (of any sport) be treated differently?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Dec 2, 2019 11:21:28 GMT -5
I am not aware of full-time students -- other than those in a 3:2 program, e.g., dual degree from Columbia and HC, being given nine or ten semesters to get their diploma. HC has a few part-time students, I do not know whether they are matriculating to get a degree, or simply taking courses. I believe HC gives you five years to complete the eight semesters. If a student has failed enough courses that he or she does not have enough credit hours to graduate, that student does not get a fifth year. The student may take the failed courses at another school and have the credits, assume there was a passing grade, transferred in. This is unlike the University of California, where some degree programs take five years to graduate. This is because courses in those programs are oversubscribed and the student may have to wait a year before taking a required course. Why should student-athletes (of any sport) be treated differently? They are not treated differently. However, a redshirt is a matriculating student. An example: Redshirt freshman matriculates two semesters of his freshman year. He practices with the team, but does not play, thus he retains his four years of eligibility. If he was rostered in his soph, junior, and senior years, he would matriculate six more semesters for a total of eight, yet have one year of eligibility remaining. I suppose if he withdrew from school for a year, and then returned, he would secure the fifth year of eligibility and have matriculated eight semesters over five chronological years. There are other more extreme convolutions, but not worth the effort to type them.
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