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Post by moose1970 on Dec 2, 2019 11:32:01 GMT -5
THEY ARE NOT ALL DUMMIES.
did not intend to imply that any of the players were "dummies" my concern is that players are being used to develop the football program without regard for scholastic achievement. this early high school graduation program will do nothing to improve the overall 50% graduation rate for college football players. now that needs to change.. Well I can tell you that both Chris Lindstrom and Isaac Yiadom graduated in 8 semesters. Used the spring semester as their redshirt time. Got into the program and were able to participate in spring ball. If kids want to graduate they'll graduate and that's true for all students. If kids want to graduate they'll graduate and that's true for all students.
try selling that to the 50% of college footall players who DON'T graduate.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 2, 2019 11:35:58 GMT -5
Well I can tell you that both Chris Lindstrom and Isaac Yiadom graduated in 8 semesters. Used the spring semester as their redshirt time. Got into the program and were able to participate in spring ball. If kids want to graduate they'll graduate and that's true for all students. If kids want to graduate they'll graduate and that's true for all students.
try selling that to the 50% of college footall players who DON'T graduate. Where are you getting the 50% figure? Is that made up? FBS football players graduate at an 82% rate.
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Post by moose1970 on Dec 2, 2019 11:38:40 GMT -5
ny, hc - on a cold snowy day -I believe that we are all being honest, open and consistent. But, certainly one could readily see how one step provides the logic and creates pressure to lead to the next step, increasing the school's commitment to football-more concessions in academics (9th semester, etc.) and additional financial resources shifted to football. The slippery slope. Scholarships -medical redshirts - full redshirts - more scholarships - additional semester for the players, soon to invariably lead to lower admission standards - some less rigorous courses - grad courses - additional practice time - upgraded more expensive assistants - upgraded schedule, CAA, FBS with more travel time away from classes - a greater shift of financial resources from academic programs to the football program(cf the Rutgers experience) and more, more for football. Slippery slope. Can you see that these steps some of which the school has taken(scholarships, medical redshirts, greater financial support, CAA FBS games) have already set us on the slippery slope? Look at how the change to scholarships led to medical redshirts and the call for full redshirts, more scholarships and more. Again, the slippery slope. Can you see how each step has created more pressure for another step, soon to be followed by another? Slippery slope. Can you see how school - wide policies are being decided based on the perceived needs of the football team rather than academics? And with these steps, one would be fooling oneself to believe that it is both academics and athletics. HC would fundamentally change. Can you see how these steps - one "small step" leading to the other - in the aggregate fundamentally change the nature of HC from academics first to athletics first? Slippery slope. Surely, one could point to ND, G-town, W&M, Richmond, etc., all fine schools but they are not HC. Holy Cross is a very special place - a small, academically rigorous LAC which has restrained the growth of athletics while competing with other high level Div.1 PL schools. The CAA and FBS has not been a part of our profile precisely because playing against these teams would result in pressure and a call to do more for football, as it in fact has done. The slippery slope. Fr. Brooks understood the allure, the pressures of increased emphasis on athletics - the slippery slope - and he was concerned about its deleterious effects on the school. I agree with Fr. Brooks.He treasured the unique beauty of "The Cross" and I do too. Again, although you may disagree, I hope that I have clearly made my point with great respect for you. Now, I return to the cold and snow of NY. With continued respect and LoveHC Now, I return to the cold and snow of NY
hope is on the horizon. pitchers and catchers report date feb 11 and 14!!!
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Post by gks on Dec 2, 2019 11:39:28 GMT -5
Why should student-athletes (of any sport) be treated differently? They are not treated differently. However, a redshirt is a matriculating student. An example: Redshirt freshman matriculates two semesters of his freshman year. He practices with the team, but does not play, thus he retains his four years of eligibility. If he was rostered in his soph, junior, and senior years, he would matriculate six more semesters for a total of eight, yet have one year of eligibility remaining. I suppose if he withdrew from school for a year, and then returned, he would secure the fifth year of eligibility and have matriculated eight semesters over five chronological years. There are other more extreme convolutions, but not worth the effort to type them. Yes but he can only do this if injured.
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Post by gks on Dec 2, 2019 11:40:25 GMT -5
If kids want to graduate they'll graduate and that's true for all students.
try selling that to the 50% of college footall players who DON'T graduate. Where are you getting the 50% figure? Is that made up? FBS football players graduate at an 82% rate. How is 82% possible? ? Aren't all kids who play at FBS just there for football and thus don't go to class?
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Post by hc87 on Dec 2, 2019 11:43:52 GMT -5
This isn't rocket science....though typically with the roots of rocket science being. established around Mt St James, we are trying to make it so ..... we already "do" redshirt, albeit only for medical reasons now. It wouldn't be that difficult to implement for other types of redshirting....we are a school for wicked smahhht people after all, we can figure out a process even sans graduate programs. None of these adjustments: redshirting, 63 scholarships, larger roster-size etc are going to turn HC football into SMU football of the early '80s.....they are simply just keeping us at a competitive level with the Ivies and the CAA schools...schools that we purport to be athletic and academic peers...why schedule them if that isn't the case?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Dec 2, 2019 11:44:34 GMT -5
Athletically related financial aid 2017-18
$12.2 million, Holy Cross distributed 55 percent for the men: 45 percent for the women. $12.1 million, University of Texas at Austin $9.8 million UNH 47:53 $9.8 million Incarnate Word 55:45 $8.7 million Wofford 67:32 $8.4 million JMU 48:52
It is not a straightforward exercise to simply add more football scollies. Very likely, for the PL football schools, this would mean adding more scollies for the women. And there is the often shifting landscape of M:F ratios for the entire student body.
Boston University has about 6400 male undergraduates and about 10,000 female undergraduates. BU's athletically-related financial aid is 40:60, which approximates the M:F undergraduate enrollment. Which is one reason why BostU dropped wrestling for men's lacrosse.
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Post by hc6774 on Dec 2, 2019 11:58:39 GMT -5
So with all this. Is their an approach that can be made to the PL to make a change? Are these the questions? Does the HC want to compete or merely participate for a national championship? If 'compete' what additional resources are needed? [another way of saying at what cost, $'s, reputation etc...if not minimal it would be a tough sell at HC] Is it reasonable to think that the PL votes [4,5 or 6] are attainable?
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Post by moose1970 on Dec 2, 2019 12:09:26 GMT -5
If kids want to graduate they'll graduate and that's true for all students.
try selling that to the 50% of college footall players who DON'T graduate. Where are you getting the 50% figure? Is that made up? FBS football players graduate at an 82% rate. i had the 50% figure in mind from a report i read but did not document. your figure is correct so MY BAD ( i should know better by now to double check figures before using on crossports) anyway there are still major FBS football programs today with grad rates in the 50% range (Oklahoma- GSR: 47%; Cal Bears-GSR: 48%; San Jose State-GSR: 48% Washington State Cougars-GSR: 53%; University of Arizona-GSR: 53%. etc.). so i amend my statement as follows, "try selling that to the college footall players from programs that DON'T graduate more than 50% +/- of players"
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Post by hc87 on Dec 2, 2019 12:10:01 GMT -5
I'm not writing the checks (directly anyway) but to go from where we are now (no non-medical redshirting, 60 scholarships, limited roster-size etc) to allowing redshirting, 63 scholarships, a bit bigger active roster etc are relatively marginal cost-wise.
Simplistic metaphor, but right now our football program is like having a Ferrari (great coach, great facilities, an engaged alumni/fan-base etc) and never driving it above 55mph on the highway.
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Post by gks on Dec 2, 2019 12:12:29 GMT -5
So with all this. Is their an approach that can be made to the PL to make a change? Are these the questions? Does the HC want to compete or merely participate for a national championship? If 'compete' what additional resources are needed? [another way of saying at what cost, $'s, reputation etc...if not minimal it would be a tough sell at HC] Is it reasonable to think that the PL votes [4,5 or 6] are attainable? Votes? Every major change in the Patriot League happens when a school finally says enough is enough and does it. I would worry squat about attaining the votes.
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Post by joe on Dec 2, 2019 12:14:10 GMT -5
I believe most alumni would be more than happy with a level of athletic competitiveness on par with Villanova - a program which is competitive year after year, a frequent conference champion, occasional winner vs FBS, and it seems perpetually in the national championship discussion. With our current coach and a bit more support the program can get there without any negative impact on academics. HC, however, does not always seize opportunities when they present themselves.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 2, 2019 12:15:20 GMT -5
This isn't rocket science....though typically with the roots of rocket science being. established around Mt St James, we are trying to make it so ..... we already "do" redshirt, albeit only for medical reasons now. It wouldn't be that difficult to implement for other types of redshirting....we are a school for wicked smahhht people after all, we can figure out a process even sans graduate programs. Exactly (sometimes I wonder if Crossporters are aware we already do this fairly frequently for our medical redshirts.) The student athlete withdraws after seven semesters and their eighth semester is the fall of the following year. This would be the absolute simplest way for HC to do it and is the way we currently do it for medical redshirts.
Again and keeping it very conservative, just use the medical redshirt process for approved/endorsed non-medical redshirts.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 2, 2019 12:23:13 GMT -5
Where are you getting the 50% figure? Is that made up? FBS football players graduate at an 82% rate. i had the 50% figure in mind from a report i read but did not document. your figure is correct so MY BAD ( i should know better by now to double check figures before using on crossports) anyway there are still major FBS football programs today with grad rates in the 50% range (Oklahoma-Â GSR: 47%;Â Cal Bears-GSR: 48%;Â San Jose State-GSR: 48% Washington State Cougars-GSR: 53%;Â University of Arizona-GSR: 53%. etc.). so i amend my statement as follows, "try selling that to the college footall players from programs that DON'T graduate more than 50% +/- of players"Â You have a source for these statistics?
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Post by moose1970 on Dec 2, 2019 12:23:17 GMT -5
I believe most alumni would be more than happy with a level of athletic competitiveness on par with Villanova - a program which is competitive year after year, a frequent conference champion, occasional winner vs FBS, and it seems perpetually in the national championship discussion. With our current coach and a bit more support the program can get there without any negative impact on academics. HC, however, does not always seize opportunities when they present themselves. now you are talking!!!
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Post by moose1970 on Dec 2, 2019 12:27:53 GMT -5
i had the 50% figure in mind from a report i read but did not document. your figure is correct so MY BAD ( i should know better by now to double check figures before using on crossports) anyway there are still major FBS football programs today with grad rates in the 50% range (Oklahoma- GSR: 47%; Cal Bears-GSR: 48%; San Jose State-GSR: 48% Washington State Cougars-GSR: 53%; University of Arizona-GSR: 53%. etc.). so i amend my statement as follows, "try selling that to the college footall players from programs that DON'T graduate more than 50% +/- of players" You have a source for these statistics? College Football Schools with the Best and Worst Graduation Rates
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Post by hc87 on Dec 2, 2019 12:54:04 GMT -5
Based on my experience at HC and my friendships with student-athletes at the time I find any implication that these guys were not academically up to par with the student body to be totally erroneous, and indeed, quite offensive. In fact I admired them for their intelligence, hard work and dedication. My athletic scholarship roomie taught me a lot about developing time management skills among other things. They were true student-athletes in the highest sense of the word. LoveHC No one here is making the assertion that HC will need to alter its academic standards to implement these adjustments to PL policies.
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Post by trimster on Dec 2, 2019 17:26:17 GMT -5
This isn't rocket science....though typically with the roots of rocket science being. established around Mt St James, we are trying to make it so ..... we already "do" redshirt, albeit only for medical reasons now. It wouldn't be that difficult to implement for other types of redshirting....we are a school for wicked smahhht people after all, we can figure out a process even sans graduate programs. Exactly (sometimes I wonder if Crossporters are aware we already do this fairly frequently for our medical redshirts.) The student athlete withdraws after seven semesters and their eighth semester is the fall of the following year. This would be the absolute simplest way for HC to do it and is the way we currently do it for medical redshirts.
Again and keeping it very conservative, just use the medical redshirt process for approved/endorsed non-medical redshirts.en
Who is to say that x amount of young men who plan to follow the above redshirt plan don’t say in December of their senior year I think I wii graduate on time and use my final year of eligibility to become a grad transfer.
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Post by gks on Dec 2, 2019 17:50:18 GMT -5
Exactly (sometimes I wonder if Crossporters are aware we already do this fairly frequently for our medical redshirts.) The student athlete withdraws after seven semesters and their eighth semester is the fall of the following year. This would be the absolute simplest way for HC to do it and is the way we currently do it for medical redshirts.
Again and keeping it very conservative, just use the medical redshirt process for approved/endorsed non-medical redshirts.en
Who is to say that x amount of young men who plan to follow the above redshirt plan don’t say in December of their senior year I think I wii graduate on time and use my final year of eligibility to become a grad transfer. One of the basketball assistants did this while a student at HC and transferred to UConn. A football player went to Vanderbilt. It already happens. The Patriot League has many, many faults that have been written about over and over again. The biggest one (now this is my opinion only) is that they consider athletes as just another student. This is so wrong. The student-athletes of today, scholarship or non-scholarship, have obligations that would make the normal students head spin. And it gets more and more every year. No one is asking for Holy Cross or Colgate or Lehigh to become a football or basketball or hockey factory, just for the colleges in the PL to realize the commitment these student-athletes make to the schools. If you're against red-shirting are you against kids going to prep school for a year? What's the difference. If the PL schools redshirt they would have the students in their programs and taking college courses. Until the league realizes this they will never be respected nationally in athletics.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 2, 2019 17:57:51 GMT -5
If you mean RJ Evans, he had graduated from Holy Cross and was no longer a student at HC. He then played at UConn but he did not transfer. The football player also graduated. Both HC graduates played as grad students for. their respective teams. Please let me know if that is wrong.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 2, 2019 18:06:19 GMT -5
Rob, don't get caught up in semantics as what you said is correct but I am positive that is exactly what gks meant when he said "graduate transfer." Transfer may not be the correct term since the players graduated but implies that they could have played another year at HC but instead left to play for another school (read: "transfer").
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Post by hcpride on Dec 2, 2019 19:01:39 GMT -5
Exactly (sometimes I wonder if Crossporters are aware we already do this fairly frequently for our medical redshirts.) The student athlete withdraws after seven semesters and their eighth semester is the fall of the following year. This would be the absolute simplest way for HC to do it and is the way we currently do it for medical redshirts.
Again and keeping it very conservative, just use the medical redshirt process for approved/endorsed non-medical redshirts.enÂ
Who is to say that x amount of young men who plan to follow the above redshirt plan don’t say in December of their senior year I think I wii graduate on time and use my final year of eligibility to become a grad transfer.  FWIW and at the risk of repeating what others have written, we have had several students graduate with a year of eligibility remaining in various sports and have gone elsewhere and played. Right now, for example, Danny Barlock is pitching at Wake Forest, having graduated from HC.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 2, 2019 19:35:07 GMT -5
I am aware of the sports accomplishmentsits of our HC graduates. I also remember that when they were still at HC, some felt they were disloyal. I felt that was not appropriate and cast them in a negative light they did not deserve. IMHO, that is more than simple semantics.
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