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Post by trimster on Dec 14, 2019 7:30:48 GMT -5
Fr. Brooks was right then and his ideas are right for HC today. He successfully navigated the school through a narrow opening to a soft landing in the Colonial/PL. His was an arrow straight and true to uphold the values of HC that so many cherish to this day. I thank JEB, the ultimate Jebbie educator, for his far sighted service to HC. LoveHC The soft landing you refer to was more like a thud when the basketball program hit the floor over 30 years ago when it became a member of the non scholarship PL. Seems to me an outstanding college like Davidson has been able to successfully compete at a very good level of D 1 basketball and maintain an outstanding academic ranking. Athletics and academics aren't mutually exclusive. Fr. Brooks did many great things for Holy Cross. Dismantling the men's hoop program wasn't one of them and compounding that with comments like the PL will allow us to have student-athletes truly representative of the student body was an insult to many fine student-athletes at Holy Cross over the years prior to the Colonial/Patriot League.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 14, 2019 8:24:19 GMT -5
Trimster, I was not living in the area when Fr. Brooks made that historic decision but is it possible you are misinterpreting what he said or there is another interpretation to:
“comments like the PL will allow us to have student-athletes truly representative of the student body was an insult to many fine student-athletes at Holy Cross over the years prior to the Colonial/Patriot League. ”
If this is not a direct quote, I can reasonably see him trying to say that a Big East membership would mean having to make unacceptable academic shortcuts but a Colonial/Patriot League membership would allow HC to MAINTAIN the high academic standards for athletes we historically had without any insult to past or then current HC athletes.
Would like to have seen the entire speech to put his comments in perspective.
The Fr. Brooks I saw and sat across the aisle from at every home basketball game at the Hart Center when I moved back to New England sure looked like what we used to call “an athletic supporter.”
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Post by Tom on Dec 14, 2019 8:45:09 GMT -5
He did not play last year. Karl played for HC during the 2017-18 season right into second semester. I assume that last year would have been a transfer sit out year So Charles is enrolled at Pace now but not on the team this year or last year? Maybe he just decided to move on from basketball. If he moved down from DI to D2 he would have been eligible to play right away. Although I'm guessing he has walked away, I think he would have to sit a year even at D-II unless he was a walk-on From the NCAA website:
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Post by Tom on Dec 14, 2019 8:51:29 GMT -5
Are there more Carmody recruits at Pace or HC? I assume this was hyperbole to take a jab at the former coach, but obviously there are more scholarship Carmody recruits at HC than Pace, Cornell, Fairfield, and Illinois combined. This will also be true if you choose to include former walk-on Chris Lovisolo at Union next semester
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Post by efg72 on Dec 14, 2019 8:53:40 GMT -5
We are where we are
In the opinion of many, his rationale for the choice was flawed at the time, yet serendipity allows him to look better today than he did that Sunday afternoon refusing to go to the press conference
He loved and enjoyed sports which was great but none of that matters anymore
The money Georgetown raised/made from the decision turned it into a global academic institution, grew the graduate programs, paid for the infrastructure and faculty salaries, and continues to attract a higher level(by scores and transcripts) of high school student. In other words it has sustainable funding to guarantee the future of the school, which was part of the Brooks mission and Dream that he never realized.
So put all of it in the rear view mirror and let’s make the best of our future. Rebuilding a winning culture should be the 3-5 year goal and then let the future be what it will be.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 14, 2019 8:56:16 GMT -5
I am sure SoV's post was...and I do not understand the need to take shots at those who have left HC, whether it be Carmody, Pine, Brown, Kearny, etc. They tried to help HC and, while their efforts may have fallen short of what was hoped for, I am not sure that any of them did anything to merit the ongoing cheap shots months or years later. Just one man's opinion. Perhaps focus on those who are still here and, in the spirit of Christmas, forgive past shortcomings and move on?
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Post by trimster on Dec 14, 2019 9:10:16 GMT -5
Trimster, I was not living in the area when Fr. Brooks made that historic decision but is it possible you are misinterpreting what he said or there is another interpretation to: “comments like the PL will allow us to have student-athletes truly representative of the student body was an insult to many fine student-athletes at Holy Cross over the years prior to the Colonial/Patriot League. ” If this is not a direct quote, I can reasonably see him trying to say that a Big East membership would mean having to make unacceptable academic shortcuts but a Colonial/Patriot League membership would allow HC to MAINTAIN the high academic standards for athletes we historically had without any insult to past or then current HC athletes. Would like to have seen the entire speech to put his comments in perspective. The Fr. Brooks I saw and sat across the aisle from at every home basketball game at the Hart Center when I moved back to New England sure looked like what we used to call “an athletic supporter.” Fr. Brooks may have been referring to need-based financial aid applying to everyone. Some will take it a step further and interpret as a reference to the academic side of the student-athlete. If you asked me do you want to allow anyone in to compete in the Big East, I would have said forget the Big East. I wasn't thinking of the Big East when I typed my message; I was thinking of the decision to say no to the A 10. I never questioned Fr. Brooks support of the athletic program. In fact, I feel he was the strongest, most visible supporter of the programs I have seen in my 50 plus years of following HC athletics when it comes to administrative support, Ron Perry Sr excluded. I just don't agree with his de-emphasis of athletics. I also disagree we would have had to sell our academic soul to compete at a higher level than the PL. I think we all know that wasn't going to happen and justifiably so.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 14, 2019 9:43:57 GMT -5
I think we are in agreement. My only point was that you seemed to be saying Fr. Brooks was disrespecting the academics of past athletes. Whether you were referencing the A-10 or Big East, I just would find it difficult to believe Fr. Brooks would say anything that would disrespect past athletes and their academic qualifications. One of his best friends was Fr. Markey on the championship basketball team. He knew better than most the high level academic successes of athletes throughout HC's history. I am confident that he would have meant to continue at that level.
FWIW, I agree that a move to the A-10 or even the Big East (going a step beyond you) would not necessarily mean athletic academic successes would go down a sinkhole. It would have been a bigger challenge though. Folks here already think we should "bend" a little even within the PL to maintain competitiveness (read: complaints against Admissions). There would be additional pressures in the A-10 and even more so in the Big East.
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Post by Tom on Dec 14, 2019 9:51:12 GMT -5
I think we are in agreement. My only point was that you seemed to be saying Fr. Brooks was disrespecting the academics of past athletes. Whether you were referencing the A-10 or Big East, I just would find it difficult to believe Fr. Brooks would say anything that would disrespect past athletes and their academic qualifications. One of his best friends was Fr. Markey on the championship basketball team. He knew better than most the high level academic successes of athletes throughout HC's history. I am confident that he would have meant to continue at that level. FWIW, I agree that a move to the A-10 or even the Big East (going a step beyond you) would not necessarily mean athletic academic successes would go down a sinkhole. It would have been a bigger challenge though. Folks here already think we should "bend" a little even within the PL to maintain competitiveness (read: complaints against Admissions). There would be additional pressures in the A-10 and even more so in the Big East. I think HC could have maintained academic integrity in the Big East. I also think by doing so, they could have equaled the basketball success that Northwestern had prior to Coach Carmody.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 14, 2019 9:54:45 GMT -5
You mean HC could have been terrible?
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Post by possum on Dec 14, 2019 10:01:48 GMT -5
Don't want to debate the Big East decision again, the only thing I'll say is that at the time the decision was made we were competing very competitively with the Big East teams don't know how Brooks came to the conclusion that we would have to sacrifice academics to compete.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 14, 2019 10:16:55 GMT -5
Don't want to debate the Big East decision again, the only thing I'll say is that at the time the decision was made we were competing very competitively with the Big East teams don't know how Brooks came to the conclusion that we would have to sacrifice academics to compete. Perhaps he knew Georgetown's plan...….
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Post by Tom on Dec 14, 2019 10:20:05 GMT -5
Don't want to debate the Big East decision again, the only thing I'll say is that at the time the decision was made we were competing very competitively with the Big East teams don't know how Brooks came to the conclusion that we would have to sacrifice academics to compete. Not only Fr Brooks, but the president of Georgetown came to the same conclusion --------------- KY types faster than I do
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Post by efg72 on Dec 14, 2019 10:28:46 GMT -5
Father Tim Healy, Frank Rienzo and I discussed this many times during that time period. In a conversation with Frank before he passed on this topic he shared the aggregate data for the past three plus decades and interestingly Lax and Hoops made some concessions, but only on the margins. Those thinking the academic records for those students was different in a meaningful way over the historic data for Gtown athletes would be mistaken.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 14, 2019 10:30:02 GMT -5
Oh, I highly doubt that. Georgetown was in a totally different Jesuit province than Holy Cross. I mean, this would almost be like Holy Cross having a president from British Columbia with his Jesuit roots on the west coast and then going to Georgetown and landing in Worcester. Just too incredible to believe.
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Post by Tom on Dec 14, 2019 10:53:54 GMT -5
Father Tim Healy, Frank Rienzo and I discussed this many times during that time period. In a conversation with Frank before he passed on this topic he shared the aggregate data for the past three plus decades and interestingly Lax and Hoops made some concessions, but only on the margins. Those thinking the academic records for those students was different in a meaningful way over the historic data for Gtown athletes would be mistaken. A high school classmate of mine who went to Georgetown undergrad knew some of the basketball players. At the time, he said that certain players (not all) had a specialized curriculum that involved 100 percent of the classes being one on one seminars with the professor. I will not dispute that the course titles and grades achieved in these courses do not differ in a meaningful way
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Post by efg72 on Dec 14, 2019 11:13:45 GMT -5
That would apply to about 1/2 of the new basketball player their first year, but they are then on tracks within the University. This option is offered to other students coming from challenging experiences. For basketball players the Business School is the most common track followed by the College, and then for a few a curriculum as you described which includes continuing education classes.
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Post by possum on Dec 14, 2019 11:14:29 GMT -5
Brooks overruled the wishes of Perry and Blaney who were proving on the court they could compete. We've always had more stringent academic requirements than most of our opponents so if this reasoning was always applied we wouldn't have had anyone to play.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 14, 2019 11:20:03 GMT -5
Brooks overruled the wishes of Perry and Blaney who were proving on the court they could compete. We've always had more stringent academic requirements than most of our opponents so if this reasoning was always applied we wouldn't have had anyone to play. From what I was told the Sunday conversation with Brooks was less than pleasant and EBW among others tried to get him onboard but he wasn’t buying
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