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Post by HC16 on Dec 9, 2019 21:51:05 GMT -5
In the final analysis is HC an educational institution which by its very essence would encourage free and open exploration and discussion in the academic tradition? Or, is it a seminary furthering the faith and Catholic teaching? (cf. sarasota) In the final analysis while both an educational institution(HC) and a seminary(Woodstock) most assuredly have a credible role to play, HC simply cannot be both - fish and fowl. A retrenchment to a more traditional, outdated seminary approach would sound the death knell for HC as an educational institution of higher learning. Might as well close the doors to the secular and have a bunch of scholastics running around their seminary. Ain't gonna' happen. I imagine that the bishop must be totally terrified with the challenges to his authority and the unassailable "truthiness"(HA!) of his positions. Exposure of one's fallibility and shortcomings can be a nightmare. Pray for this woebegone bishop in English, not Latin.. LoveHC In this case seminary doesn't mean the common understanding of seminary, it means a college with a religious affiliation that offers a course vaguely similar to a Catholic theology course and mentions their religious affiliation in marketing/official correspondence. I'd be very interested to see the seminary that you can graduate from without taking a single Catholic (or Christian) religious studies class and without ever attending a single Mass.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 10, 2019 1:04:11 GMT -5
In the final analysis is HC an educational institution which by its very essence would encourage free and open exploration and discussion in the academic tradition? Or, is it a seminary furthering the faith and Catholic teaching? (cf. sarasota) In the final analysis while both an educational institution(HC) and a seminary(Woodstock) most assuredly have a credible role to play, HC simply cannot be both - fish and fowl. A retrenchment to a more traditional, outdated seminary approach would sound the death knell for HC as an educational institution of higher learning. Might as well close the doors to the secular and have a bunch of scholastics running around their seminary. Ain't gonna' happen. I imagine that the bishop must be totally terrified with the challenges to his authority and the unassailable "truthiness"(HA!) of his positions. Exposure of one's fallibility and shortcomings can be a nightmare. Pray for this woebegone bishop in English, not Latin.. LoveHC Outrage at the Bishop is building to a crescendo. Do you think we're getting a little over the top? He's a conservative Catholic, not the Devil. When members of the faculty accused the Bishop of using hate speech I would have liked Father B. to have spoken up and tell them no, that is an exchange of ideas not hate speech. Would it kill Father B. to let people know that he is the Sheriff around here once in a while?
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Post by td128 on Dec 10, 2019 5:31:53 GMT -5
I have often told folks on campus, "If I wanted to go to Tufts or Middlebury or another school of that ilk, I would have. Along those same lines, if you want a school like that, you should just go there."
Regrettably very few have ever chosen to meaningfully engage me on the topic.
Our Church and our college have certainly faced many challenges over the years. Some such as the sexual abuse crisis are of an existential nature. I believe there is a special place in hell for those engaged in such horrific acts or others who would look to cover them up. The hierarchy within the church -- and certainly some more than others (e.g Bernard Law) -- has failed massively in this regard. That said, I am not a big believer in painting (condemning) an entire group with a broad brush nor in attacking an individual messenger so as to distract from a message.
Back to the matter at hand. While I respect the diversity of opinions that are central to a Liberal Arts education, I have little time for those who would openly defile our Lord and Savior and our faith under the umbrella of academic freedom or otherwise. I do not have much time or regard for others who would support that premise or others of a very similar nature.
I have ultimate respect for and welcome fully embracing/supporting those who defend the Catholic principles that are central to our faith and the Jesuit principles upon which our great college was established. I welcome ardently waging that fight to defend the same within my own parish, my own diocese, and my Alma Mater.
I am confident that those who built our great school would hope for and expect nothing less.
For those concerned that Holy Cross runs the risk of being defined as a seminary, I think I missed that seminar during my days on the hill in the early '80s.
IHS
AMDG
LET'S WIN!!
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 10, 2019 7:55:13 GMT -5
I did not see it either...once mandatory daily weekday mass was abolished in 1964.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Dec 10, 2019 7:55:52 GMT -5
IMO, much of the travail affecting the current R. C. church in western Europe and North America is the result of the faithful becoming increasingly literate, knowledgeable, and questioning. They are far less accepting, at face value, of the catechism and doctrinal pronouncements of bishops and priests.
Further, the Latin church has, from about the Fifth Century on, become a huge administrative state, much dependent on the exercise of temporal power to secure the lucre necessary to finance this administrative state. In the words of Lord Acton, 'Power corrupts,....'
Even the Jesuits, with their vow of poverty, succumbed. The slave holdings of the Maryland province were minuscule to those of the Jesuit plantations in the Caribbean, which supplied sugar and spices to the Continent. This was a great commercial enterprise that funded the order's activities in France.
The suppression of the Jesuits in France in 1764 was a result of the order failing to meet its contractual obligations for these ingredients; bankruptcy resulted. The contracts were not fulfilled because the British Navy, under a Protestant king, had seized the ships transporting the goods while enroute to Catholic France.
With the suppression, Louis le Grand in Paris, the greatest 'high school' ever, now became a state school rather than a Jesuit school. As is often said, 'there would have been no French Revolution without the Jesuit instruction at Louis le Grand'.
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Post by td128 on Dec 10, 2019 8:22:47 GMT -5
"IMO, much of the travail affecting the current R. C. church in western Europe and North America is the result of the faithful becoming increasingly literate, knowledgeable, and questioning. They are far less accepting, at face value, of the catechism and doctrinal pronouncements of bishops and priests."
I would wholeheartedly agree with this point and thank you for stating it. I recall as if it were yesterday receiving a response from GR in which he stated that he wanted to "reconcile our faith and culture" during his tenure at Holy Cross. This exact premise that our respected colleague P.Phreek puts forth is what led to the questions and answers behind the ultimate 'resignation' (I'll be kind) of GR saving the college from potential untold shame and dishonor in the process.
Nothing good happens in a vacuum of leadership.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 10, 2019 8:38:58 GMT -5
Translate that last point t to latin and put it up over the entrance to Fenwick. (with apologies for. my very poor Latin - despite the efforts of Brother Lawrence at BCHS) . Nihil boni fit in vacuo, de ducibus.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 10, 2019 9:30:10 GMT -5
td, forgive my ignorance but can't figure out who "GR" is, even in context. The synapses just don't seem to be connecting this morning. I could only think of GateRaider but pretty sure you don't mean him!
I am sure it is embarrassingly obvious who you are referring.
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Post by td128 on Dec 10, 2019 9:40:29 GMT -5
td, forgive my ignorance but can't figure out who "GR" is, even in context. The synapses just don't seem to be connecting this morning. I could only think of GateRaider but pretty sure you don't mean him! I am sure it is embarrassingly obvious who you are referring. Who occupied the office on Fenwick 1 After JEB S.J and before FV ?
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Post by moose1970 on Dec 10, 2019 12:10:37 GMT -5
The horror: a Catholic bishop claiming he has religious authority to some degree over a Catholic college? You all may want (and I want too) Holy Cross to be an open forum of academic rigor, intellectual skepticism, and free speech. However, the Catholic Church, while charitable and helpful in many ways to many people, is never ambiguous in stating that it furthers Catholic teachings, Catholic viewpoints, and Catholic dogma. I see some surprise in earlier posts that Bishop McManus is out of touch to want those same views touted by the "Catholic" institution. To other earlier posters who subscribe to the more pragmatic approach to the faith, or the simplest of Jesus' teachings, I offer you the two thousand years of rules, writing, scholarly review, regulations, restrictions, taxes, fees, abuse, corruption of a human/man-run enterprise rather than the thirty-three some-odd years of God on earth helping other people.
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Post by moose1970 on Dec 10, 2019 12:20:26 GMT -5
Some of us hold that Bishop McManus does NOT state Catholic doctrine correctly. Holy Cross needs to remain firm on this. Bishops are far from infallible.
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Post by nhteamer on Dec 10, 2019 12:22:37 GMT -5
In a "he who is without sin cast the first stone" type approach, I will ask "which of you accusatory perfect Christians" has devoted your life to others.
However imperfect the Bishop is (I do not know him) he certainly is bright enough to have used his abilities in self aggrandisement in a different forum.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 10, 2019 12:29:15 GMT -5
GR is Gerard Reedy, S.J. I had one interaction with him. I was in California for the holidays and my brother-in-law took me to an HC alumni club reception for Father Reedy at the St. Francis Yacht Club in San Francisco. Thank you to whichever generous alumnus or alumni/ae who sponsored it. I spoke to Father R. with some idea I can't remember and he basically laughed at me. I am sure he didn't purposely try to put me down, but I was left feeling: "No, you are a Priest, you are supposed to be kindly and supportive."
In comparison, I have had one conversation with Father B who was certainly warm and welcoming. I exchanged a couple of emails with Father M. when he was confronted with the off campus student drinking publicity crisis across the street and I found him responsive, respectful and a bit surprisingly supportive and caring of the students involved even though their behavior was burying him and HC in the T&G. And when Father Brooks was President and I was student, respect for him was unquestioned even though he was just starting his tenure.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 10, 2019 14:50:20 GMT -5
In a "he who is without sin cast the first stone" type approach, I will ask "which of you accusatory perfect Christians" has devoted your life to others. However imperfect the Bishop is (I do not know him) he certainly is bright enough to have used his abilities in self aggrandisement in a different forum. Since not one poster said anything about being a perfect Christian, why (if I may ask) would you make such a statement and even put it in quotes?
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Post by Tom on Dec 10, 2019 15:01:17 GMT -5
Some of us hold that Bishop McManus does NOT state Catholic doctrine correctly. Holy Cross needs to remain firm on this. Bishops are far from infallible. Could you be more specific or cite an example? I am not claiming he is infallible and I don't come close to hanging on every word he utters, but I don't recall ever hearing about him stating doctrine incorrectly
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Post by sarasota on Dec 10, 2019 15:29:09 GMT -5
American Cardinals, Archbishops, Bishops: McManus, Reilly, Flanagan, OMalley, Tobin, Dolan, McCarrick, Walsh, Sheen, Cushing, Cody, etc.
Man on the Street: Jones, Romano, Rodriquez, Bamberger, Laflamme, Liakos, Koretski, Arzoomanian, Aronoff, etc.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 10, 2019 15:45:01 GMT -5
Stop the nonsense.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Dec 10, 2019 15:52:18 GMT -5
GR is Gerard Reedy, S.J. I had one interaction with him. I was in California for the holidays and my brother-in-law took me to an HC alumni club reception for Father Reedy at the St. Francis Yacht Club in San Francisco. Thank you to whichever generous alumnus or alumni/ae who sponsored it. I spoke to Father R. with some idea I can't remember and he basically laughed at me. I am sure he didn't purposely try to put me down, but I was left feeling: "No, you are a Priest, you are supposed to be kindly and supportive." Gerard Reedy, noted alum of Regis High School- NYC.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Dec 10, 2019 16:30:04 GMT -5
Is it travail? Or, is it the Holy Spirit working in mysterious ways to bring the church more fully to the message of Christ's love? LoveHC Perhaps the mysterious ways include the early Fourth Century Donation of Constantine (the In Hoc Signo Vinces guy). Through his Donation, Constantine bestowed on the seat of Peter "power, and dignity of glory, and vigour, and honour imperial", and "supremacy as well over the four principal sees, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Constantinople, as also over all the churches of God in the whole earth". For the upkeep of the church of Saint Peter and that of Saint Paul, he gave landed estates "in Judea, Greece, Asia, Thrace, Africa, Italy and the various islands". To Pope Sylvester (who supposedly had cured Constantine of leprosy, which was a myth) and his successors he also granted imperial insignia, the tiara, and "the city of Rome, and all the provinces, places and cities of Italy and the western regions". One can see the mischief that such a document could create. In his Divine Comedy, written in the early 14th century, the poet Dante Alighieri wrote: "Ahi, Costantin, di quanto mal fu matre, / non la tua conversion, ma quella dote / che da te prese il primo ricco patre!" ("Ah, Constantine, how much evil was born, / not from your conversion, but from that donation / that the first wealthy Pope received from you!") Swearing it was authentic, Pope [St.] Leo IX invoked the Donation as he and Michael, the Patriarch of Constantinople sparred over the presence of Byzantine churches in southern Italy. This squabble quickly led to the Great Schism, which persists to this day. (The 1,000 year anniversary will be in 2054.) However, the Holy Spirit appears to not have sufficiently enlightened St. Leo IX in the Latin language for either the Pope could not read Latin, or did not understand what he read. As an example of this ignorance, the Donation describes fiefs, which did not come into being until the Middle Ages.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 10, 2019 18:22:00 GMT -5
Is it travail? Or, is it the Holy Spirit working in mysterious ways to bring the church more fully to the message of Christ's love? LoveHC Perhaps the mysterious ways include the early Fourth Century Donation of Constantine (the In Hoc Signo Vinces guy). Through his Donation, Constantine bestowed on the seat of Peter "power, and dignity of glory, and vigour, and honour imperial", and "supremacy as well over the four principal sees, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Constantinople, as also over all the churches of God in the whole earth". For the upkeep of the church of Saint Peter and that of Saint Paul, he gave landed estates "in Judea, Greece, Asia, Thrace, Africa, Italy and the various islands". To Pope Sylvester (who supposedly had cured Constantine of leprosy, which was a myth) and his successors he also granted imperial insignia, the tiara, and "the city of Rome, and all the provinces, places and cities of Italy and the western regions". One can see the mischief that such a document could create. In his Divine Comedy, written in the early 14th century, the poet Dante Alighieri wrote: "Ahi, Costantin, di quanto mal fu matre, / non la tua conversion, ma quella dote / che da te prese il primo ricco patre!" ("Ah, Constantine, how much evil was born, / not from your conversion, but from that donation / that the first wealthy Pope received from you!") Swearing it was authentic, Pope [St.] Leo IX invoked the Donation as he and Michael, the Patriarch of Constantinople sparred over the presence of Byzantine churches in southern Italy. This squabble quickly led to the Great Schism, which persists to this day. (The 1,000 year anniversary will be in 2054.) However, the Holy Spirit appears to not have sufficiently enlightened St. Leo IX in the Latin language for either the Pope could not read Latin, or did not understand what he read. As an example of this ignorance, the Donation describes fiefs, which did not come into being until the Middle Ages. I'll make a reservation for the anniversary, but I won't put down a cash deposit.🙂
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Post by nhteamer on Dec 11, 2019 12:53:53 GMT -5
In a "he who is without sin cast the first stone" type approach, I will ask "which of you accusatory perfect Christians" has devoted your life to others. However imperfect the Bishop is (I do not know him) he certainly is bright enough to have used his abilities in self aggrandisement in a different forum. Since not one poster said anything about being a perfect Christian, why (if I may ask) would you make such a statement and even put it in quotes? None of those surrounding the prostitute said they were without sin, yet they were appropriately challenged. Clearly, fellow double Crusader, you didn't have Br Vaughn for Theology.
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Post by moose1970 on Dec 15, 2019 4:49:02 GMT -5
Some of us hold that Bishop McManus does NOT state Catholic doctrine correctly. Holy Cross needs to remain firm on this. Bishops are far from infallible. Could you be more specific or cite an example? I am not claiming he is infallible and I don't come close to hanging on every word he utters, but I don't recall ever hearing about him stating doctrine incorrectly start with the following quote " The mayors of Massachusetts just stood up at a press conference in front of the State House and publicly proclaimed their support for this Roe Act, which promotes abortion.Those Catholic politicians have to realize that by taking a public, pro-abortion stance, they jeopardize their relationship to the Catholic Church. They are, in some level, involved with a very, very grave evil. It’s a type of apostasy". Elected officials who are Catholic do not jeopardize their relationship with the Church by supporting legislation like the Roe Act anymore than if they support legislation upholding divorce which also contravenes Catholic doctrine.
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Post by td128 on Dec 15, 2019 8:51:00 GMT -5
"Elected officials who are Catholic do not jeopardize their relationship with the Church by supporting legislation like the Roe Act anymore than if they support legislation upholding divorce which also contravenes Catholic doctrine."I am not so sure about that, especially given that many legislative bodies have passed legislation approving abortion at any point during the pregnancy and some pols have gone so far as to legitimizing infanticide. So before we roll over and accept this 'anything goes' approach to the treatment of the unborn and how we view pols who would call themselves Catholic in the process, I welcome submitting the following commentary to the debate: This is how to deal with pro-abortion Catholic politicians: catholicherald.co.uk/dailyherald/2019/05/21/this-is-how-to-deal-with-pro-abortion-catholic-politicians/Another bishop shows Dolan what to do about people like Governor Cuomo
It’s rare these days to find Catholics who want to enter into public service as Catholics. Most want to be “personally Catholic” and “publicly Liberal.”
Wherever the Catholic standard does not agree with the constantly shifting standard of “public reason,” for too many Catholic politicians, their faith loses every time. That’s bad for them, for the faith, and for the common good too. It’s bad for Catholic children to see very public Catholic role models teach with their laws things contrary to the Faith they share. It’s bad for non-Catholics to see Catholic politicians teaching to citizens through their legislation things which are untrue and immoral.
For this reason, bishops have an obligation to help hold Catholic politicians to the standard of their own faith. In a recent letter, Bishop Thomas A. Daly of Spokane did just that, writing that Catholic politicians who support abortion must not present themselves for communion at Masses.
Efforts to expand access to abortion, allowing murder of children up to the moment of birth is evil. Children are a gift from God, no matter the circumstances of their conception. They not only have a right to life, but we as a society have a moral obligation to protect them from harm.
The champion of this abortion legislation is Andrew Cuomo, a Catholic and governor of New York. Governor Cuomo frequently cites his Catholic faith in support of legislation he favors. His public witness as a Catholic politician, coupled with his stalwart support of abortion, is unacceptable.
Politicians who reside in the Catholic Diocese of Spokane, and who obstinately persevere in their public support for abortion, should not receive Communion without first being reconciled to Christ and the Church (cf. Canon 915; “Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion. General Principles.” Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 2004).
Bishop Daly is to be applauded for actually taking his responsibilities as a Bishop seriously enough to use the disciplines of the Church to admonish and teach his flock. However, Bishop Daly doesn’t address any politician in Spokane, but one in the Archdiocese of New York, namely Governor Cuomo.
A spokesman for the Diocese told J.D. Flynn of the Catholic News Agency that Bishop Daly’s letter “is not commenting directly on any one politician in his diocese, but making clear that it is important to understand that the Catholic faith and public abortion advocacy are incompatible. The principle is that if one persists in a public way in supporting abortion access they should refrain from receiving Holy Communion.”
In response to Catholics who demand that Governor Cuomo be excommunicated, Cardinal Dolan has claimed that it would be counter-productive. But perhaps Bishop Daly offers some good fraternal advice to Cardinal Dolan, appealing not to Canons 1398 or 1399 which concern excommunication but to Canon 915, which says that anyone who “obstinately” perseveres in “manifest grave sin” are also not to be admitted to Holy Communion. What could be more manifest, or more gravely sinful, than promoting abortion on demand, the direct intentional killing of human life, legal from conception to the hospital delivery room? What could be more evident than the fact that Governor Cuomo obstinately perseveres, in outward defiance of his own faith.
Cardinal Dolan could write a similar letter which would not be counter-productive, but could on the contrary be an important teaching moment for all.
C C Pecknold is Associate Professor of Theology, and a Fellow of the Institute for Human Ecology, at The Catholic University of America in Washington, DC
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 15, 2019 9:19:07 GMT -5
It still amazes me that the Church declares like begins "at conception," BUT one cannot have a mass said for a stillborn child since "it was never alive." You can have a mass said for the grieving parents. Such self-contradictory beliefs do cause me problems.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 15, 2019 11:16:14 GMT -5
I am more in line, though not completely, with td128 (surprise to those of you who believe me to be a "flaming liberal").
I don't equate Catholic politicians believing divorce is OK with believing abortion is OK. The Catholic Church has always allowed "divorces" but has made the very fine distinction it is not a divorce, it is an annulment (i.e. the marriage never existed, sometimes/often allowed under the very reasons why a civil divorce is granted). I'll let the lawyers on the board confirm/deny that civilly there are very rare instances of legal annulments, you just get a divorce. And, a separation of two people is much different and much less serious than the taking of a life.
That said, my Holy Cross education forces me, as usual, into gray shadings in what might appear to be a black & white situation. While I just can't get my moral head around "abortion on demand" or when a baby (fetus) is "viable" (with medical advances, a shorter and shorter time after conception), I also believe that an abortion can be allowed in self-defense. That is, if a mother's life is in jeopardy, not just a matter of inconvenience, while the baby is truly innocent, I believe there is justification in order to save the life of the mother.
I also happen to believe that there are many, many childless couples that would be happy to adopt an "unwanted" child. The good news is that there appear to be fewer and fewer abortions both in relative and absolute numbers.
I also recognize that I am not in a position to "cast the first stone" against anyone getting an abortion for whatever reason.
But Catholic politicians, like Gov. Gina Raimondo, should not in my opinion be actively encouraging liberalization of abortion laws. As a result, they took down her picture in her high school "hall of fame" of alums at LaSalle, a Catholic high school. Forget being against abortions or even being neutral, she was "all in" for changing the abortion laws in the state.
I am assuming the Dean has and will continue to allow this discussion which is tangentially touching on "politics" but it is indeed religion as a subject:
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