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Post by efg72 on Dec 12, 2019 23:08:00 GMT -5
HC has tradition and values. Once you start tinkering with either, the structure begins to crack and crumble. Without the history, tradition and values we currently offer it is difficult to imagine families willing to pay current or higher tuition prices for an above average but not excellent academic experience.
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Post by sarasota on Dec 13, 2019 0:20:02 GMT -5
HC has tradition and values. Once you start tinkering with either, the structure begins to crack and crumble. Without the history, tradition and values we currently offer it is difficult to imagine families willing to pay current or higher tuition prices for an above average but not excellent academic experience. I'm talking about Sports, not Academics.
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Post by sarasota on Dec 13, 2019 4:54:36 GMT -5
Here's the video of Brett Nelson just out of Univ Florida playing in the 1999 McDonalds All American game. Pretty flashy!
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Post by hcpride on Dec 13, 2019 5:44:51 GMT -5
/\ Since our 'brand' is inextricably tied to D-1 athletic participation I don't see us going anywhere - notwithstanding the apparent merits of such a move. Our brand is as a progressive Catholic Liberal Arts college that participates in D-1 athletics. The powers that be have determined that deviation or changes to that brand (our unique niche) would do great harm in today's competitive college market. (Note: Our brand says nothing about fielding winning athletic teams so the fact we field primarily losing teams is almost irrelevant and not a reason to move to D-3.)
I spoke to several recent visitors to campus and they remarked on what struck them as outsized athletic facilities (Fitton, Baseball Stadium, Luth/Hart, numerous fields, etc.). Once I explained to them our brand, I think it made more sense. I think the same is true concerning our overt progressivism in the news over the last couple of years - it is part of the brand so it is trumpeted by the college. And the reluctance to add to the Liberal Arts - -part of the brand. The powers that be seem to have determined that if we lose the brand we lose our niche. There is something to that, of course.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Dec 13, 2019 5:54:00 GMT -5
Regarding transfers at our level of D-1, I might (emphasis might) feel different if players could be eligible immediately. You'll notice that Grandison and Green are sitting out, while Coach Nelson is working right now. I do think there is nothing wrong with a coach being honest with his players when assessing them at each year end.
Having said that, I'm not real happy with the transfer explosion in general. I haven't thought this out, but I'm starting to wonder if perhaps TPTB might be wise to consider putting in some type of quota system (as in, you're allowed to take in X number of transfers over say, a 5 year period).
Is the transfer process equally fair for players and coaches? Probably not....but if it has to be that way, shouldn't it favor student athletes at the end of the day? This is why I sometimes think the Semi Pro Division should split away from the rest of schools. Then they can treat their players like inventory, and not have to look over their shoulders.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 13, 2019 8:35:42 GMT -5
HC has tradition and values. Once you start tinkering with either, the structure begins to crack and crumble. Without the history, tradition and values we currently offer it is difficult to imagine families willing to pay current or higher tuition prices for an above average but not excellent academic experience. I'm talking about Sports, not Academics. Understand you are talking about athletics, but a Jesuit education feeds the mind, body and soul. Once you significantly dilute any part of the total education you attack the values and tradition and no longer have a complete Jesuit education. When that takes place those willing to invest $250k for a son or daughter to attend Holy Cross and receive the experience we value will decline. With that decline comes a reduced budget to fund the upgrades needed to attract a broader population of students. In other words, be careful what you wish for you just might get it and then realize the school made an enormous mistake. Today we remain a unique and special offering to a group of families and students because we philosophically offer a total Jesuit education. It is a wonderful educational experience but not elite. If we make the changes you recommend, I fear we will provide little more than a good education and be no different than a pool of schools currently rated a level below us.
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Post by trimster on Dec 13, 2019 8:48:44 GMT -5
I could be wrong but I believe the number of Jesuits on campus is very small. Can HC continue to offer a Jesuit education when the number of Jesuits as part of the faculty, administration, etc., is almost non-existent.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 13, 2019 8:52:12 GMT -5
Yes but only if the formula used to build the educational experience embraces the long standing Jesuit philosophies around education.
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Post by trimster on Dec 13, 2019 8:58:41 GMT -5
Yes but only if the formula used to build the educational experience embraces the long standing Jesuit philosophies around education. I agree but it's a lot easier to promote experience x, fill in the blank, when you have a lot of the reason for x as part of the picture.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 13, 2019 9:00:50 GMT -5
I could be wrong but I believe the number of Jesuits on campus is very small. Can HC continue to offer a Jesuit education when the number of Jesuits as part of the faculty, administration, etc., is almost non-existent. I have thought about that for some time. I see a clear difference in Jesuit education between principles and "presence." The college functions with a foundation built upon Jesuit teaching and philosophy of education. There may be fewer Jesuit priests than in the past (well, there certainly are, no maybe about it) but the College seems to be doing pretty well in maintaining loyalty to the principles on which it was built by the Jesuits. It has been my experience that the strengths of a Jesuit education are pretty well known and have been maintained for decades now by most of our lay faculty to the benefit of HC students.
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Post by Tom on Dec 13, 2019 9:12:02 GMT -5
I could be wrong but I believe the number of Jesuits on campus is very small. Can HC continue to offer a Jesuit education when the number of Jesuits as part of the faculty, administration, etc., is almost non-existent. I will echo the sentiment that you can follow the principles even without actual Jesuits. I went to a Xavarian high school. There are currently zero members of that order actively teaching at my old high school.
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Post by trimster on Dec 13, 2019 9:27:37 GMT -5
I could be wrong but I believe the number of Jesuits on campus is very small. Can HC continue to offer a Jesuit education when the number of Jesuits as part of the faculty, administration, etc., is almost non-existent. I have thought about that for some time. I see a clear difference in Jesuit education between principles and "presence." The college functions with a foundation built upon Jesuit teaching snd philosophy of education. There may be fewer Jesuit priests than in the past (well, there certainly are, no maybe about it) but the College seems to be doing pretty well in maintaining loyalty top the principles on which the Jesuits built it. It has been my experience that the strengths of a Jesuit education. are pretty well known and have been maintained for decades now by most of our lay faculty to the benefit of HC students. I agree. It is sad though to hear the college is going to buy or build a house much smaller than Ciampi to be a home for the remaining Jesuits and turn Ciampi into a dorm. The Jesuits have/had a certain gravitas to them.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 13, 2019 9:29:17 GMT -5
In Northern NJ, there are no longer religious faculty at St Joseph (Xaverian), or Bergen Catholic (Brothers of Edmund Ignatius Rice, formerly known as Irish Christian Brothers). Their private rooms have been repurposed. BUT, they both still follow the principles on which they were founded.
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Post by sarasota on Dec 13, 2019 10:23:26 GMT -5
I'm not talking abolition, just RIGHT-SIZING.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 13, 2019 11:10:23 GMT -5
IMHO anything lower than being a member of the PL would be killing the athletic programs on the Hill.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 13, 2019 12:01:25 GMT -5
We are right where we should be--just need to do a better job of funding and supporting and recruiting to get better results on the field, court, ice, river, track
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 13, 2019 12:11:20 GMT -5
I wonder what qualifies as an "elite education" today? Would that be anything less than Ivy League, Amherst, Williams, Stanford?
Pretty sure in the 60's, Holy Cross was considered "elite." Where did we go wrong?
I have posted eons ago on here when I lived in the Columbus area, some there thought Holy Cross was in the Ivy League. Most likely because they would see scores on the crawlers on TV showing us regularly playing Harvard, Dartmouth, Brown, Yale. And, no, these were not "country bumpkins" but they did live in a Buckeye-centric world.
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Post by lou on Dec 13, 2019 12:13:53 GMT -5
if you can afford these prices you're getting an elite education
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Post by trimster on Dec 13, 2019 12:59:46 GMT -5
if you can afford these prices you're getting an elite education As my wife frequently reminds me, the alumni network that accompanies it.
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Post by hc87 on Dec 13, 2019 13:04:34 GMT -5
I wonder what qualifies as an "elite education" today? Would that be anything less than Ivy League, Amherst, Williams, Stanford? Pretty sure in the 60's, Holy Cross was considered "elite." Where did we go wrong? I have posted eons ago on here when I lived in the Columbus area, some there thought Holy Cross was in the Ivy League. Most likely because they would see scores on the crawlers on TV showing us regularly playing Harvard, Dartmouth, Brown, Yale. And, no, these were not "country bumpkins" but they did live in a Buckeye-centric world. I'm fairly certain the education one receives at HC is still elite....the public perception (mainly prospective students and their families) don't see HC as elite today. It's not that we did much wrong....more of a societal shift away from religious, liberal arts, school not in an "interesting" place etc....some of these things we can adjust to moving forward, others like our religious identity or location we can't.
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Post by MeatWilkerson on Dec 13, 2019 13:28:36 GMT -5
I wonder what qualifies as an "elite education" today? Would that be anything less than Ivy League, Amherst, Williams, Stanford? Pretty sure in the 60's, Holy Cross was considered "elite." Where did we go wrong? I have posted eons ago on here when I lived in the Columbus area, some there thought Holy Cross was in the Ivy League. Most likely because they would see scores on the crawlers on TV showing us regularly playing Harvard, Dartmouth, Brown, Yale. And, no, these were not "country bumpkins" but they did live in a Buckeye-centric world.
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Post by JRGNYR on Dec 13, 2019 13:46:01 GMT -5
We are right where we should be--just need to do a better job of funding and supporting and recruiting to get better results on the field, court, ice, river, track Nailed it.
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Post by HCFC45 on Dec 13, 2019 14:41:54 GMT -5
Boy, did this go way off topic ..... !
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 13, 2019 14:46:02 GMT -5
Yes...following past practice.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 13, 2019 16:09:05 GMT -5
It would seem the Class of 1967, despite having Chris Matthews among your members, did not participate in Holy Cross "bull sessions" that went back at least as far as the late 30's (per my late father) which by definition were discussions that started off on one topic and meandered off into totally unrelated subject matters for the enjoyment of the participants. I know when this happens here on Crossports it is like fingernails on a chalk board for hoops. But, if it makes you guys feel any better, "Is Nelson "ovah his head?" - No! Dean, you can close this thread now.
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