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Post by sader1970 on Dec 15, 2019 9:56:51 GMT -5
An educated guess is that not only in the PL, but in every league/conference, a school can have stricter academic requirements than the league's, just not looser ones. League requirements presumably are the minimum.
So, where I think you are going with this is, if HC joined a "higher" athletic conference, would our athletes coming in be "dumbed down?" Not on paper, but there would undoubtedly be competitive pressures from alums and fans to "loosen up" to admit great athletes that might meet conference standards but not school standards. Don't we already see that in the PL with calls for Ann McD to be more "flexible" in Admissions?
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Post by gks on Dec 16, 2019 14:25:53 GMT -5
Question....is it harder for athletes to get into HC compared to the regular student? I think I know the answer but would like to hear other opinions.
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Post by ndgradbuthcfan on Dec 16, 2019 15:31:29 GMT -5
Harder?
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Post by trimster on Dec 16, 2019 19:24:26 GMT -5
An educated guess is that not only in the PL, but in every league/conference, a school can have stricter academic requirements than the league's, just not looser ones. League requirements presumably are the minimum. So, where I think you are going with this is, if HC joined a "higher" athletic conference, would our athletes coming in be "dumbed down?" Not on paper, but there would undoubtedly be competitive pressures from alums and fans to "loosen up" to admit great athletes that might meet conference standards but not school standards. Don't we already see that in the PL with calls for Ann McD to be more "flexible" in Admissions? I agree with the pressure part probably happening but where I was going was regardless of the athletic conference a college is in, it controls who it chooses to admit. The idea that HC would have to admit student-athletes who are barely capable of spelling their names, is what irks me. Look at the success of the Potter, Vicens, Perry and Doran era and their academic excellence as evidence that athletic and academic success can coexist. The other thing that really irked me was statements like we have no place to hide the academic under performers we would have to admit to compete in at a high-level in athletics. To the best of my knowledge, Holy Cross was never in the business of hiding student-athletes in the days football and basketball were competing at a high level of D1. If you didn't perform academically, you were shown the door and told to reapply for admission after a year of academic exile.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 16, 2019 19:29:54 GMT -5
I would guess those that believe compromises were made are advocates we move to D3
A few that might have been exceptions, likely outperformed the advocates and others in the classroom, and more importantly later in life
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Post by possum on Dec 16, 2019 19:53:38 GMT -5
The athletic motto for the administration over the last 45 years is No We Can't
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Post by spenser on Dec 16, 2019 20:00:36 GMT -5
I would guess those that believe compromises were made are advocates we move to D3 A few that might have been exceptions, likely outperformed the advocates and others in the classroom, and more importantly later in life I know from second hand experience that one of the best D3 schools in Massachusetts makes exceptions for athletes. And as to the original topic, let’s talk 1/1/22. It’s much too early now.
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Post by bison137 on Dec 16, 2019 20:33:35 GMT -5
Every school, including HC, makes exceptions for athletes. The question is how big the exceptions are. The PL AI limits the extent of the exceptions. HC, like all the schools, takes some athletes who are close to their floor.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 16, 2019 20:54:52 GMT -5
HC at its best has been a mid-major or high mid-major over the last 50+ years. The landscape in sports has changed dramatically over these years much to our disadvantage. We were quite fortunate to find a soft landing in the CL/PL. Why not appreciate competing in one of the finest, most highly respected leagues in the nation, the PL? You are known by the company you keep. LoveHC I have said previously we are where we are and for now and maybe well into the future it is adequate. It is a league that is barely known or understood as designed by the Ivy League to be little more than a group of schools formed to give them wins. the company you keep is important, but where we are Academically in terms of the national rankings of PL schools vs ACC, Big East or Big 10 schools is only a modest test score improvement and last time I looked UNC,VA, Duke, Georgetown, Boston College, Northwestern, Michigan they were well ahead of PL schools . quality of education is a different conversation, but most of the public just looks at raw scores so no, I am not buying the company we keep argument, but willing to accept we are where we belong for the moment.
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Post by southernsader on Dec 16, 2019 22:21:10 GMT -5
HC at its best has been a mid-major or high mid-major over the last 50+ years. The landscape in sports has changed dramatically over these years much to our disadvantage. We were quite fortunate to find a soft landing in the CL/PL. Why not appreciate competing in one of the finest, most highly respected leagues in the nation, the PL? You are known by the company you keep. LoveHC +1
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Post by sarasota on Dec 17, 2019 1:01:43 GMT -5
It takes a long time to gain a reputation for high quality academics. I believe HC's reputation has been built over many decades. The proof of the pudding is the experience of HC alums in the professional/commercial/artistic world. That's the bottom line.
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Post by sarasota on Dec 17, 2019 1:05:38 GMT -5
I would guess those that believe compromises were made are advocates we move to D3 A few that might have been exceptions, likely outperformed the advocates and others in the classroom, and more importantly later in life I'm a proponent of getting out of D1, but I never claimed nor do I believe that HC has cut corners on admission of athletes. .
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Post by trimster on Dec 17, 2019 5:45:11 GMT -5
HC at its best has been a mid-major or high mid-major over the last 50+ years. The landscape in sports has changed dramatically over these years much to our disadvantage. We were quite fortunate to find a soft landing in the CL/PL. Why not appreciate competing in one of the finest, most highly respected leagues in the nation, the PL? You are known by the company you keep. LoveHC I have said previously we are where we are and for now and maybe well into the future it is adequate. It is a league that is barely known or understood as designed by the Ivy League to be little more than a group of schools formed to give them wins. the company you keep is important, but where we are Academically in terms of the national rankings of PL schools vs ACC, Big East or Big 10 schools is only a modest test score improvement and last time I looked UNC,VA, Duke, Georgetown, Boston College, Northwestern, Michigan they were well ahead of PL schools . quality of education is a different conversation, but most of the public just looks at raw scores so no, I am not buying the company we keep argument, but willing to accept we are where we belong for the moment.
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Post by trimster on Dec 17, 2019 5:47:16 GMT -5
You and I are in total agreement on this one. I love your IL reference.
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Post by gks on Dec 17, 2019 6:38:02 GMT -5
It takes a long time to gain a reputation for high quality academics. I believe HC's reputation has been built over many decades. The proof of the pudding is the experience of HC alums in the professional/commercial/artistic world. That's the bottom line. This can be said about every college in the nation. HC is not unique in this.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 17, 2019 7:29:05 GMT -5
HC at its best has been a mid-major or high mid-major over the last 50+ years. The landscape in sports has changed dramatically over these years much to our disadvantage. We were quite fortunate to find a soft landing in the CL/PL. Why not appreciate competing in one of the finest, most highly respected leagues in the nation, the PL? You are known by the company you keep. LoveHC Doesn't apply to college sports leagues in the context of academic reputations. If it does, somebody forgot to tell MIT, Stanford, U-Chicago, Johns Hopkins, Cal Tech, Duke, Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt, Georgetown, Boston College, Villanova...
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 17, 2019 8:14:18 GMT -5
Are you really asking why fans who want the best for their alma mater and its athletes are acting like fans?
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 17, 2019 8:25:09 GMT -5
I happen to be one who believes that success on athletics can, not always, get a college/university "brand name" out there that inures to the benefit of its academics. Look at Notre Dame as example #1. Historically, it was a middling academic Catholic school in the boondocks. It's football team - not basketball or any other sport - brought it to national prominence and now often considered (we know differently ) the premiere Catholic institution of higher learning. Even back in 1966, Holy Cross was considered the better school with some exceptions. One high school classmate of mine went to Notre Dame because he wanted to be an engineer (and did), 3 of us (it was a very small graduating class) went to Holy Cross. And before you jump all over my first statement, no, I am not suggesting that Holy Cross jump the PL but I do think had we gone Big East, the name of Holy Cross would be known nationally more so than it is today. HC is head and shoulders over Providence College academically but PC is better known across the country . . . . . and they haven't even been all that successful on the basketball court. We should, however, strive to be the best on the field/court/ice and excel in everything that we do. I don't subscribe to the position that athletic excellence means academic Siberia.
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Post by sarasota on Dec 17, 2019 8:25:13 GMT -5
It takes a long time to gain a reputation for high quality academics. I believe HC's reputation has been built over many decades. The proof of the pudding is the experience of HC alums in the professional/commercial/artistic world. That's the bottom line. This can be said about every college in the nation. HC is not unique in this. Except for those colleges who do NOT have a reputation for high quality academics.
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Post by trimster on Dec 17, 2019 8:31:12 GMT -5
Honestly, I do not understand the griping about HC in the PL. So, HC pulls out of the PL, moves up to the CAA, builds successful winning teams even to the point of contending/winning national championships. HC, the Beast of The East. So, who cares? What is the point? To what end? Think. HC is in a competitive league with other similar like-minded high quality small academic institutions. Why would anyone on this board care about competing with other sports programs - Stanford,Rice ,VU, BC,etc, - outside our PL orbit? To what end? LoveHC In the age colleges find themselves in, (some "experts" are predicting an Armageddon for small colleges in particular and colleges in general, in 2025), why not have a small college on a hill in Worcester, Massachusetts, widely successful on both the academic and athletic fronts. What a great promotion for the college it would be, imho.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 17, 2019 9:08:23 GMT -5
Honestly, I do not understand the griping about HC in the PL. So, HC pulls out of the PL, moves up to the CAA, builds successful winning teams even to the point of contending/winning national championships. HC, the Beast of The East. So, who cares? What is the point? To what end? Think. HC is in a competitive league with other similar like-minded high quality small academic institutions. Why would anyone on this board care about competing with other sports programs - Stanford,Rice ,VU, BC,etc, - outside our PL orbit? To what end? LoveHC The point was that many many schools are known for their academic quality who are not necessarily in academic leagues catering to like-minded academic institutions : MIT, Stanford, U-Chicago, Johns Hopkins, Cal Tech, Duke, Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt, Georgetown, Boston College, Villanova... to name the first few that come to mind.
This was to respond to your notion that the saying " you are known by the company you keep" applies to college sports leagues regarding academic reputations.
Nobody noted we should necessarily compete on the gridiron with these sports programs. But there is a suggestion that HC can maintain or build an academic reputation without PL membership.
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Post by gks on Dec 17, 2019 9:45:56 GMT -5
Honestly, I do not understand the griping about HC in the PL. So, HC pulls out of the PL, moves up to the CAA, builds successful winning teams even to the point of contending/winning national championships. HC, the Beast of The East. So, who cares? What is the point? To what end? Think. HC is in a competitive league with other similar like-minded high quality small academic institutions. Why would anyone on this board care about competing with other sports programs - Stanford,Rice ,VU, BC,etc, - outside our PL orbit? To what end? LoveHC The point was that many many schools are known for their academic quality who are not necessarily in academic leagues catering to like-minded academic institutions : MIT, Stanford, U-Chicago, Johns Hopkins, Cal Tech, Duke, Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt, Georgetown, Boston College, Villanova... to name the first few that come to mind.
This was to respond to your notion that the saying " you are known by the company you keep" applies to college sports leagues regarding academic reputations.
Nobody noted we should necessarily compete on the gridiron with these sports programs. But there is a suggestion that HC can maintain or build an academic reputation without PL membership.
How has being in the ACC affected Duke's academic standing? How has Georgetown in the Big East affected their academic standing? How has being in the PAC 10 or 12 whatever it is with those dumb Publics affected Stanford's academic standing? How has being in the SEC affected Vanderbilt's academic standing? Tired old arguments.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 17, 2019 10:10:54 GMT -5
rgs - I was not really asking. I was trying to make the exact point you made. However, you made the argument more directly, more effectively than I. Thank you. m LoveHC My apologies for being unclear. I knew what you were doing, and I was also joking (note the emoji). Be well. Rob
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Post by trimster on Dec 17, 2019 10:12:24 GMT -5
A tad sanctimonius.
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Post by trimster on Dec 17, 2019 10:14:21 GMT -5
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