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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 16, 2020 11:28:58 GMT -5
Patriot League or no Patriot League...for some reason (many listed here) multiple coaches can't recruit consistently here. That's the biggest problem. I hope you have not yet concluded that Brett Nelson cannot recruit consistently. He's not been on the job long enough to draw such a conclusion.
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Post by rgs318 on Feb 16, 2020 11:48:17 GMT -5
KY, you must remember that "long term" in the minds of some is just the time until the next game, not even to next season.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Feb 16, 2020 12:02:52 GMT -5
As a reminder.......HC is a virulently top down organization with the top occupied by one or more Jesuits. The BoD is carefully selected.....so as to follow orders. It's a rubber stamp. So I don't care if the BoD is 100% former athletes. It wouldn't make a difference. Our society is becoming more and more secular. What vitality there is among religionists in the U.S. is concentrated in the evangelical, etc. area, certainly not in traditional religions and most certainly not in Catholicism. So you have a Jesuit (and the Society of Jesus) running things in a secularizing society. Nobody expects the Jesuits and their constituency to abandon its religious mission, but it would help a lot if they would "soften" it. That's why having an appropriate image (nickname, logo, mascot) as well as having a lay person as President are more important than one might realize. There are threats ahead for H.C., perhaps not existential but certainly to quality, reputation, etc. If HC is to be preserved, it is not by sports but instead by its Endowment, which grows by way of donors, both individuals and corporations. They will be attracted by the quality of HC's education. I purposely say "education" and not "the HC experience" as some would say. Because so long as HC is an institution of higher learning, it's objective must be education--not moral formation, which is the proper role of The Family, The Church and the Seminary. Virulently top down. Amen.
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purple71
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 169
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Post by purple71 on Feb 16, 2020 15:34:24 GMT -5
As a reminder.......HC is a virulently top down organization with the top occupied by one or more Jesuits. The BoD is carefully selected.....so as to follow orders. It's a rubber stamp. So I don't care if the BoD is 100% former athletes. It wouldn't make a difference. Our society is becoming more and more secular. What vitality there is among religionists in the U.S. is concentrated in the evangelical, etc. area, certainly not in traditional religions and most certainly not in Catholicism. So you have a Jesuit (and the Society of Jesus) running things in a secularizing society. Nobody expects the Jesuits and their constituency to abandon its religious mission, but it would help a lot if they would "soften" it. That's why having an appropriate image (nickname, logo, mascot) as well as having a lay person as President are more important than one might realize. There are threats ahead for H.C., perhaps not existential but certainly to quality, reputation, etc. If HC is to be preserved, it is not by sports but instead by its Endowment, which grows by way of donors, both individuals and corporations. They will be attracted by the quality of HC's education. I purposely say "education" and not "the HC experience" as some would say. Because so long as HC is an institution of higher learning, it's objective must be education--not moral formation, which is the proper role of The Family, The Church and the Seminary. Sarasota, from a time when I was much more active on the Board, I recall your view that religion was “superstition”, which view colors your analysis of what ails Cross Basketball. However, I believe you and I are of a similar mind as to the graveyard that is PL hoops, which is the initial concept of this tread. As I write this I am watching on TV the Siena/Manhattan game in front of 7200 fans on a Sunday afternoon. How does that happen? Please read this piece on the newly appoint President on the value of basketball in building the brand: m.timesunion.com/news/article/Churchill-Chris-Gibson-comes-home-to-Siena-15057175.php‘Soto, you will be pleased to see he is not a Franciscan while I appreciate his recognition of the Franciscan Tradition. In fairness, I must point out that because offers Siena offers graduate degrees it has the benefit of what Al McGuire would describe as an “Aircraft Carrier” graduate from Norte Dame. Interestingly, Siena started off gang busters in the first half, stalled a bit but built a double digit lead early in the second half before Manhattan came roaring back to cut it to one before Siena went on a 14-2 run in the last 4 minutesr during which Manhattan didn’t call time out . Strange.
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Post by ndgradbuthcfan on Feb 16, 2020 18:34:35 GMT -5
This "Aircraft Carrier" averaged 2 pts and 2 rbs over 44 games for ND. It must have been the Vatican City Navy!
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 16, 2020 18:37:45 GMT -5
As a reminder.......HC is a virulently top down organization with the top occupied by one or more Jesuits. The BoD is carefully selected.....so as to follow orders. It's a rubber stamp. So I don't care if the BoD is 100% former athletes. It wouldn't make a difference. Our society is becoming more and more secular. What vitality there is among religionists in the U.S. is concentrated in the evangelical, etc. area, certainly not in traditional religions and most certainly not in Catholicism. So you have a Jesuit (and the Society of Jesus) running things in a secularizing society. Nobody expects the Jesuits and their constituency to abandon its religious mission, but it would help a lot if they would "soften" it. That's why having an appropriate image (nickname, logo, mascot) as well as having a lay person as President are more important than one might realize. There are threats ahead for H.C., perhaps not existential but certainly to quality, reputation, etc. If HC is to be preserved, it is not by sports but instead by its Endowment, which grows by way of donors, both individuals and corporations. They will be attracted by the quality of HC's education. I purposely say "education" and not "the HC experience" as some would say. Because so long as HC is an institution of higher learning, it's objective must be education--not moral formation, which is the proper role of The Family, The Church and the Seminary. Sarasota, from a time when I was much more active on the Board, I recall your view that religion was “superstition”, which view colors your analysis of what ails Cross Basketball. However, I believe you and I are of a similar mind as to the graveyard that is PL hoops, which is the initial concept of this tread. As I write this I am watching on TV the Siena/Manhattan game in front of 7200 fans on a Sunday afternoon. How does that happen? Please read this piece on the newly appoint President on the value of basketball in building the brand: m.timesunion.com/news/article/Churchill-Chris-Gibson-comes-home-to-Siena-15057175.php‘Soto, you will be pleased to see he is not a Franciscan while I appreciate his recognition of the Franciscan Tradition. In fairness, I must point out that because offers Siena offers graduate degrees it has the benefit of what Al McGuire would describe as an “Aircraft Carrier” graduate from Norte Dame. Interestingly, Siena started off gang busters in the first half, stalled a bit but built a double digit lead early in the second half before Manhattan came roaring back to cut it to one before Siena went on a 14-2 run in the last 4 minutesr during which Manhattan didn’t call time out . Strange. 7200 fans. Game must be in Albany. Like in Providence, Albany is a Worcester sized Northeast city that has developed a tradition of supporting Siena and PC basketball at the downtown DCU/Centrum equivalent arena. HC should hire a marketing consultant, or recruit retired alumni talent in that field (KY?) to probe for the reason why it caught on in Albany and Providence and not in Worcester. The easy answer is the PL, but there must be other factors also.
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Post by CHC8485 on Feb 16, 2020 18:47:29 GMT -5
PC is a little easier to posit what's going on in that Providence has long supported the Friars, the college put all it's eggs in the men's BB basket and plays in the Big East.
But the other thing that both Providence and Albany have over Worcester is they are state capitals where there are a boat load of lobyists with money burning holes in their pockets, clients to entertain, and little else to do on a Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, etc to entertain those clients.
I'll buy that it's a legit attraction for PC and Big East Basketball, but if you think it's the quality of MAAC basketball vs. PL basketball, you're crazy.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 16, 2020 19:00:54 GMT -5
Just checked. Providence is Worcester sized 179k vs 185K population but Albany is only 97K. However, many more Lobbyists must be trying to influence the NY State budget compared to how many are trying to influence the RI State budget. That is a good point.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Feb 16, 2020 19:03:46 GMT -5
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Post by CHC8485 on Feb 16, 2020 19:11:50 GMT -5
And if I may add - when I travel on business, I look for something to do in the evening. Whether I'm entertaining someone or not, I'd consider going a college basketball game down the street from my hotel to kill a couple of hours.
Was in San Luis Obispo last week and looked at the Cal Poly San Luis Obispo schedule and would have gone had there been a game in town.
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purple71
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 169
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Post by purple71 on Feb 16, 2020 19:16:28 GMT -5
This "Aircraft Carrier" averaged 2 pts and 2 rbs over 44 games for ND. It must have been the Vatican City Navy! I believe the waters of the ACC are significantly more challenging than those oof the MAAC.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 16, 2020 19:41:25 GMT -5
Nice article. Why can't the "fools on Rose Hill" out recruit players to NYC over Dayton, Oh. and Richmond, Va.?
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Post by timholycross on Feb 16, 2020 20:24:34 GMT -5
Certainly if the Centrum opened in lieu of the Hart Center, it would have caught on; HC had a good team when the Hart opened.
Then again, without beating a dead, dead, dead horse; if the same decisions were made at the end of that decade, attendance would have fallen off a cliff.
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Post by sarasota on Feb 16, 2020 23:06:57 GMT -5
I've always liked the MAAC, probably because I'm an old Metro NYC dweller.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Feb 16, 2020 23:38:35 GMT -5
Basketball-wise, I'd much prefer the MAAC as well. 4-5 yrs ago HC had an offer from the MAAC to join and shot it down.
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Post by sarasota on Feb 16, 2020 23:39:32 GMT -5
After a quick check, turns out Georgetown, St Louis, Fairfield and St Peters all have a lay person as President. Interesting........ When you step way back, you begin to see the bubble that HC lives in.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 16, 2020 23:46:25 GMT -5
Re: Albany and Providence, I'll repeat what I've said here many times. HC is hurt by not being in its own Nielsen DMA. As part of the Boston market, HC likely gets very little mention on the nightly news broadcasts that most people in Worcester County watch. In contrast, I'll bet Providence and Siena get covered every night in the nightly news broadcasts that people in Providence and Albany watch. That has to be a significant factor.
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Post by cfrivals on Feb 16, 2020 23:46:50 GMT -5
Time for the “Last Amateurs 2” to come out? This book can just focus on HC once proud BB tradition plummeting to the worst program in D1.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Feb 17, 2020 0:06:30 GMT -5
Re: Albany and Providence, I'll repeat what I've said here many times. HC is hurt by not being in its own Nielsen DMA. As part of the Boston market, HC likely gets very little mention on the nightly news broadcasts that most people in Worcester County watch. In contrast, I'll bet Providence and Siena get covered every night in the nightly news broadcasts that people in Providence and Albany watch. That has to be a significant factor. This is correct and indeed the biggest reason HC is nearly invisible in greater Worc. when compared to U Albany for example.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 17, 2020 0:08:31 GMT -5
Time for the “Last Amateurs 2” to come out? This book can just focus on HC once proud BB tradition plummeting to the worst program in D1. Seldom has so much been riding on one recruiting class.
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Post by gks on Feb 17, 2020 5:09:12 GMT -5
Patriot League or no Patriot League...for some reason (many listed here) multiple coaches can't recruit consistently here. That's the biggest problem. I hope you have not yet concluded that Brett Nelson cannot recruit consistently. He's not been on the job long enough to draw such a conclusion. Obviously. But there is a pattern over many sports, many coaches and many years. The talent just isn't there. Chesney is the exception. In answer to the original question...the proof is in the win-loss record.
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Post by trimster on Feb 17, 2020 8:24:07 GMT -5
As a reminder.......HC is a virulently top down organization with the top occupied by one or more Jesuits. The BoD is carefully selected.....so as to follow orders. It's a rubber stamp. So I don't care if the BoD is 100% former athletes. It wouldn't make a difference. Our society is becoming more and more secular. What vitality there is among religionists in the U.S. is concentrated in the evangelical, etc. area, certainly not in traditional religions and most certainly not in Catholicism. So you have a Jesuit (and the Society of Jesus) running things in a secularizing society. Nobody expects the Jesuits and their constituency to abandon its religious mission, but it would help a lot if they would "soften" it. That's why having an appropriate image (nickname, logo, mascot) as well as having a lay person as President are more important than one might realize. There are threats ahead for H.C., perhaps not existential but certainly to quality, reputation, etc. If HC is to be preserved, it is not by sports but instead by its Endowment, which grows by way of donors, both individuals and corporations. They will be attracted by the quality of HC's education. I purposely say "education" and not "the HC experience" as some would say. Because so long as HC is an institution of higher learning, it's objective must be education--not moral formation, which is the proper role of The Family, The Church and the Seminary. Sarasota, from a time when I was much more active on the Board, I recall your view that religion was “superstition”, which view colors your analysis of what ails Cross Basketball. However, I believe you and I are of a similar mind as to the graveyard that is PL hoops, which is the initial concept of this tread. As I write this I am watching on TV the Siena/Manhattan game in front of 7200 fans on a Sunday afternoon. How does that happen? Please read this piece on the newly appoint President on the value of basketball in building the brand: m.timesunion.com/news/article/Churchill-Chris-Gibson-comes-home-to-Siena-15057175.php‘Soto, you will be pleased to see he is not a Franciscan while I appreciate his recognition of the Franciscan Tradition. In fairness, I must point out that because offers Siena offers graduate degrees it has the benefit of what Al McGuire would describe as an “Aircraft Carrier” graduate from Norte Dame. Interestingly, Siena started off gang busters in the first half, stalled a bit but built a double digit lead early in the second half before Manhattan came roaring back to cut it to one before Siena went on a 14-2 run in the last 4 minutesr during which Manhattan didn’t call time out . Strange. Actually I began the thread with no reference to the Patriot League. Basically, I asked how important is having a very successful men’s hoop program to the powers that be at HC. I asked that with the assumption we will remain in the PL long term.
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Post by rgs318 on Feb 17, 2020 8:26:42 GMT -5
I believe that assumption is correct. We are in the PL and will be for the near future without a doubt. (It might be wise to at least reach mediocrity before saying we want to move "up.")
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Feb 17, 2020 8:33:33 GMT -5
Attendance at a couple of other MAAC games over the weekend (games like these never seem to be mentioned when Siena attendance comes up):
1,372 Marist at Iona 1,111 Monmouth at Niagara
College of Charleston at Northeastern drew 1,473
South Dakota State (former home of Mike Daum, winners of 20 games this year) drew 2,409 for their game against Purdue Ft. Wayne
UC Irvine at Hawaii drew 7,591; must be representative of the Big West; why can't the PL draw like that! Well..
1,626 UC Riverside at Long Beach State 672 Cal Poly at Cal State Fullerton
I can understand folks my age being angry over the level drop of HC basketball...but to blame it on the PL is simply foolish imho. Maybe the MAAC is more interesting for some, but frankly, if HC fielded a quality RW level squad this year - the MAAC would be choking on the exhaust of the PL.Outside of the semi pros, attendance isn't all that great anywhere (with exceptions like Siena)/
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Post by res on Feb 17, 2020 11:31:38 GMT -5
NAD, you forgot the 887 who crammed in yesterday to see 1st place St. Peter's host Fairfield.
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