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Post by mm67 on Apr 10, 2021 10:27:55 GMT -5
I was more focused on the early 80s after Perry, Witts, etc. were gone and the people replacing them were clearly a cut below; George over time adjusted to the hand he was dealt and put a pretty good team out there by the end of the decade. Then, of course; the Patriot League became an all sports league.... ....and schollies were eliminated. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened had HC Remained in the MAAC. GB got sacked big time twice in just under a decade. After the second time, he must have said enough is enough although he did stay until his last class of scholarship players had graduated plus one more year. Reality check. HC won the MAAC title once, co -champs with LaSalle(?) There is no historical data to indicate any grand route to great success in the MAAC. HC is a small religiously affiliated college with rigorous standards which is not a formula for success at the MAAC level.
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Post by trimster on Apr 10, 2021 11:47:23 GMT -5
I was thinking more of what would have played out in the latter part of George Blaney's coaching career. I wonder if the Willard Era would have happened or would GB have had a 40 year career at the Cross. Concerning your last point, the same small Catholic school with rigorous standards had a lot of success on the national stage for many years prior to the advent of the MAAC.
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Post by timholycross on Apr 10, 2021 15:24:09 GMT -5
We didn't drop down to the Patriot League in football nor in basketball (5 or so years later) due to a lack of being able to compete with the schools we were playing. There were no dark clouds on the horizon save for the need to re-evaluate the BC game (can't fault Fr. B for that decision).
Contrast that to American University who didn't believe they belonged in the CAA any more.
It was due to the person in charge implementing his philosophy, right or wrong. That is the bottom line.
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Post by mm67 on Apr 10, 2021 15:29:29 GMT -5
I was thinking more of what would have played out in the latter part of George Blaney's coaching career. I wonder if the Willard Era would have happened or would GB have had a 40 year career at the Cross. Concerning your last point, the same small Catholic school with rigorous standards had a lot of success on the national stage for many years prior to the advent of the MAAC. trimster Respectfully, our days of great success on the national stage were 1947 - late'50's. The '60's were not great. Indeed, GB was a wonderful coach & there were some fine EAC teams. Willard ditto. But, neither had a lot of success on the national stage. We can both agree that we would love for HC to achieve the same level of play as those teams coached by the great Blaney & Willard. But, for a variety of reasons I suspect that train has left the station. The great Fr. Brooks was attempting to move HC from a school known primarily for its athletics to a school known for its academics in the Catholic tradition. Peace.
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Post by timholycross on Apr 10, 2021 15:47:04 GMT -5
...except it was better academically before he switched leagues, wasn't it? Don't let the facts get in the way of your otherwise solid argument. We agree to disagree.
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Post by trimster on Apr 10, 2021 16:02:18 GMT -5
I know they aren't a religiously affiliated college but that aside, I would have liked HC to be like Davidson.
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Post by mm67 on Apr 10, 2021 16:21:39 GMT -5
...except it was better academically before he switched leagues, wasn't it? Don't let the facts get in the way of your otherwise solid argument. We agree to disagree. 4 tim... Actually, I'm not sure we disagree.. Certainly, it does appear that HC did have a higher academic standing before we deemphasized. IMO Fr. Brooks was trying to move HC away from the Catholic school stereotype - large gyms, small libraries to a higher academic national plane, not limited to the the world of Catholic higher education. HC could be Catholic & recognized as great outside the world of Catholic higher education. He was trying to maintain & build HC's academic standing among schools in Catholic higher education & in the secular, non-Catholic world of academia as well. He believed that using sports to establish our brand was self-defeating. He wanted to place HC in the position of using its academics, not sports, to establish its brand, see Ivies, Div. 3 SNECAC.(We tried but failed to get into this conference.) Today, it appears HC is not known for its special academics nor in athletics as it once was - a failure all around. HC has deemphasized athletics to the point where the school struggles to compete against lower level former Div.2 schools we would never have considered playing. And, surprisingly our academic standing has also apparently fallen if public rankings & some posters are to be believed. It seems that sadly Fr. Brooks' unbounded love for HC clouded his judgement and decision making about the future path for HC. In all fairness the good Father did not nor could have anticipated all the changes in the collegiate academic and athletics landscape. Most important. Where does HC go from here? Peace.
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Post by notjuanjones on Apr 10, 2021 16:47:20 GMT -5
Travellin’Man Sam Iorio. Formerly AU, then South Alabama, transfers to Niagara Hope, again, he's happy. Some things I'll never understand.
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 10, 2021 17:20:25 GMT -5
IMHO, if Calvin Murphy could get in there, anyone can get in. Not known as a solid academic institution...at least when it comes to athletics.
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Post by timholycross on Apr 10, 2021 17:37:59 GMT -5
Isn't known as a basketball school any more either!
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 10, 2021 17:43:47 GMT -5
How about for baton twirling?
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Post by trimster on Apr 11, 2021 8:44:43 GMT -5
...except it was better academically before he switched leagues, wasn't it? Don't let the facts get in the way of your otherwise solid argument. We agree to disagree. 4 tim... Actually, I'm not sure we disagree.. Certainly, it does appear that HC did have a higher academic standing before we deemphasized. IMO Fr. Brooks was trying to move HC away from the Catholic school stereotype - large gyms, small libraries to a higher academic national plane, not limited to the the world of Catholic higher education. HC could be Catholic & recognized as great outside the world of Catholic higher education. He was trying to maintain & build HC's academic standing among schools in Catholic higher education & in the secular, non-Catholic world of academia as well. He believed that using sports to establish our brand was self-defeating. He wanted to place HC in the position of using its academics, not sports, to establish its brand, see Ivies, Div. 3 SNECAC.(We tried but failed to get into this conference.) Today, it appears HC is not known for its special academics nor in athletics as it once was - a failure all around. HC has deemphasized athletics to the point where the school struggles to compete against lower level former Div.2 schools we would never have considered playing. And, surprisingly our academic standing has also apparently fallen if public rankings & some posters are to be believed. It seems that sadly Fr. Brooks' unbounded love for HC clouded his judgement and decision making about the future path for HC. In all fairness the good Father did not nor could have anticipated all the changes in the collegiate academic and athletics landscape. Most important. Where does HC go from here? Peace. Just curious, when did HC try to become a member of the “Little Ivies?”
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Post by timholycross on Apr 11, 2021 9:27:55 GMT -5
All I remember was there was a study of HC Athletics in the late 60s, by Arthur D. Little; that seemed to recommend HC go in that direction.
Maybe Father Brooks behind the scenes when he took over made inquiries? Excluding Colgate,, the NESCAC colleges were much more on HC's radar screen.
I doubt he was still making that sort of inquiry after the PL was founded at his initiative; I don't believe he would have jumped ship before the league got going fully. By the time it did, he retired.
I do remember his successor talking about D3; but that seemed to get shot down pretty quickly.
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Post by hcpride on Apr 11, 2021 9:41:04 GMT -5
...except it was better academically before he switched leagues, wasn't it? Don't let the facts get in the way of your otherwise solid argument. We agree to disagree. 4 tim... Actually, I'm not sure we disagree.. Certainly, it does appear that HC did have a higher academic standing before we deemphasized. IMO Fr. Brooks was trying to move HC away from the Catholic school stereotype - large gyms, small libraries to a higher academic national plane, not limited to the the world of Catholic higher education. HC could be Catholic & recognized as great outside the world of Catholic higher education. He was trying to maintain & build HC's academic standing among schools in Catholic higher education & in the secular, non-Catholic world of academia as well. He believed that using sports to establish our brand was self-defeating. He wanted to place HC in the position of using its academics, not sports, to establish its brand, see Ivies, Div. 3 SNECAC.(We tried but failed to get into this conference.) Today, it appears HC is not known for its special academics nor in athletics as it once was - a failure all around. HC has deemphasized athletics to the point where the school struggles to compete against lower level former Div.2 schools we would never have considered playing. And, surprisingly our academic standing has also apparently fallen if public rankings & some posters are to be believed. It seems that sadly Fr. Brooks' unbounded love for HC clouded his judgement and decision making about the future path for HC. In all fairness the good Father did not nor could have anticipated all the changes in the collegiate academic and athletics landscape. Most important. Where does HC go from here? Peace. It is fair to say some Catholic Colleges have grown in relative academic and/or athletic reputation since the 80's. And it is fair to suggest Holy Cross may not be one of them.
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Post by mm67 on Apr 11, 2021 10:21:18 GMT -5
All I remember was there was a study of HC Athletics in the late 60s, by Arthur D. Little; that seemed to recommend HC go in that direction. Maybe Father Brooks behind the scenes when he took over made inquiries? Excluding Colgate,, the NESCAC colleges were much more on HC's radar screen. I doubt he was still making that sort of inquiry after the PL was founded at his initiative; I don't believe he would have jumped ship before the league got going fully. By the time it did, he retired. I do remember his successor talking about D3; but that seemed to get shot down pretty quickly. A well connected alum told a few of us at the last HC-FU b-ball game played at Rose Hill that HC had made overtures to the NESCAC and was shut out-"couldn't get past the front gate." FWIW.
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Post by timholycross on Apr 11, 2021 10:26:36 GMT -5
All I remember was there was a study of HC Athletics in the late 60s, by Arthur D. Little; that seemed to recommend HC go in that direction. Maybe Father Brooks behind the scenes when he took over made inquiries? Excluding Colgate,, the NESCAC colleges were much more on HC's radar screen. I doubt he was still making that sort of inquiry after the PL was founded at his initiative; I don't believe he would have jumped ship before the league got going fully. By the time it did, he retired. I do remember his successor talking about D3; but that seemed to get shot down pretty quickly. A well connected alum told a few of us at the last HC-FU b-ball game played at Rose Hill that HC had made overtures to the NESCAC and was shut out-"couldn't get past the front gate." FWIW. I think most of us, me included, believe you....it's the "when" at least I'm more curious about.
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 11, 2021 10:31:35 GMT -5
I believe that happened. I also believe that anti-Catholic bias stopped that in its tracks. I find it troubling that anti-Catholic bias is still seemingly OK to many (far too many) in this politically correct age.
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Post by HC92 on Apr 11, 2021 10:55:44 GMT -5
I believe that happened. I also believe that anti-Catholic bias stopped that in its tracks. I find it troubling that anti-Catholic bias is still seemingly OK to many (far too many) in this politically correct age. Anti-Catholic bias isn’t just okay among the woke, it’s a requirement if you want to be part of the club.
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Post by mm67 on Apr 11, 2021 12:30:11 GMT -5
A well connected alum told a few of us at the last HC-FU b-ball game played at Rose Hill that HC had made overtures to the NESCAC and was shut out-"couldn't get past the front gate." FWIW. I think most of us, me included, believe you....it's the "when" at least I'm more curious about. When? Probably in the mid to late '90's... It is tempting to assign anti-catholic bias, sans evidence but there may have been be other factors at work. NESCAC had 10 school members which is a perfect fit for their football season and works well for basketball. Why change? Also, I knew guys from Bowdoin, Amherst & Williams who did not think as highly of HC academically as I did at that time. They viewed the school as primarily one known for its athletics not academics. In fact one said HC was" big time" in f-ball & b-ball. Some pointed out that even if it were possible it would take a drastic move by the school and an upgrading of its academic profile for the school to be considered for admission. I don't believe it would be accurate or fair to ascribe their opinion of HC to anti-Catholic bias. (sort of like a sour grapes argument?) I was gung ho for our entry into the NESCAC. Thought it would have been a perfect landing spot. I was wrong. Over the years looking at the bigger picture, including many of the well stated opinions by some posters I have come to the conclusion that such a move would not have worked out. Tradition, possibly academics(?) & attitudes on all sides were against the move.
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Post by timholycross on Apr 11, 2021 13:56:11 GMT -5
That would have been a Reidy effort, then. Father Brooks retired in 1994 and Reidy made a few D3 comments after a year or two in office (which didn't go over very well).
Would have made 12 teams for every sport but football; you'd think that would have been an attractive number to that league.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Apr 11, 2021 14:08:37 GMT -5
I believe that happened. I also believe that anti-Catholic bias stopped that in its tracks. I find it troubling that anti-Catholic bias is still seemingly OK to many (far too many) in this politically correct age. Anti-Catholic bias isn’t just okay among the woke, it’s a requirement if you want to be part of the club. I'm not sure who you're including as part of the "woke." It strikes me as intellectually lazy. I have no idea whether anti-Catholic bias played into the decision you're referring to. If I had to guess I would guess that it did. Amongst the NESCAC and Ivy League schools there is also quite a bit of snobbery about the quality of their faculty vis a vis everyone else's. Yes, they have strong faculties but so do a lot of other schools. I have friends who are academics who tell me that HC has a great faculty (and has for some time).
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Post by Crucis#1 on Apr 11, 2021 16:16:09 GMT -5
That would have been a Reidy effort, then. Father Brooks retired in 1994 and Reidy made a few D3 comments after a year or two in office (which didn't go over very well). Would have made 12 teams for every sport but football; you'd think that would have been an attractive number to that league. Inquiries were made in the 1996-1997 time frame during the administration of GR regarding NESCAC. At the time there was a trustees study regarding the future of HC athletics and the reinstatement of basketball scholarships. I remember a meeting with Gerry Reedy and Kevin Condron, in Washington DC, that was held on November 23, 1996, prior to the Georgetown football game, that NESCAC did not look favorably regarding HC admissions. NESCAC was the only option for D3 that was on the table. Moving to NESCAC, would have been a sad and unforgettable decision. Regarding quality of education and facilities, I found the schools in the NESCAC consortium to be highly overrated and still retain their academic luster based on a post WWII academic concept and image. Their reputation as a group, appears to be one of self protection when surveys are taken by the journals who publish, i.e, US News, etc. Williams and Amherst will always be positioned as 1 or 2, among LAS groupings, even though there are schools that in recent years have provided an overall higher quality of instruction and academic innovation. In order to improve HC’s academic reputation, there is a need to modify the current pedagogical model. Monserrat was a good first step, however additional changes are needed. Let’s hope that with a change in administration, the door will be open to innovation that has been resisted by many in the past. The innovation, must be undertaken with a very clear and thoughtful process that will guide the structure and process of instruction for the 21st century.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 11, 2021 21:45:25 GMT -5
I believe that happened. I also believe that anti-Catholic bias stopped that in its tracks. I find it troubling that anti-Catholic bias is still seemingly OK to many (far too many) in this politically correct age. The Bishop would agree that anti-Catholic bias among some at Holy Cross is disappointing.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 11, 2021 21:50:01 GMT -5
That would have been a Reidy effort, then. Father Brooks retired in 1994 and Reidy made a few D3 comments after a year or two in office (which didn't go over very well). Would have made 12 teams for every sport but football; you'd think that would have been an attractive number to that league. Inquiries were made in the 1996-1997 time frame during the administration of GR regarding NESCAC. At the time there was a trustees study regarding the future of HC athletics and the reinstatement of basketball scholarships. I remember a meeting with Gerry Reddy and Kevin Condron, in Washington DC, that was held on November 23, 1996, prior to the Georgetown football game, that NESCAC did not look favorably regarding HC admissions. NESCAC was the only option for D3 that was on the table. Moving to NESCAC, would have been a sad and unforgettable decision. Regarding quality of education and facilities, I found the schools in the NESCAC consortium to be highly overrated and still retain their academic luster based on a post WWII academic concept and image. Their reputation as a group, appears to be one of self protection when surveys are taken by the journals who publish, i.e, US News, etc. Williams and Amherst will always be positioned as 1 or 2, among LAS groupings, even though there are schools that in recent years have provided an overall higher quality of instruction and academic innovation. In order to improve HC’s academic reputation, there is a need to modify the current pedagogical model. Monserrat was a good first step, however additional changes are needed. Let’s hope that with a change in administration, the door will be open to innovation that has been resisted by many in the past. The innovation, must be undertaken with a very clear and thoughtful process that will guide the structure and process of instruction for the 21st century. The Patriot League schools are either not behind or not much behind most NESCAC schools academically. And D-3 athletics? My eyes are getting too old to find their scores in the small print. Father R. was a faint shadow of Father B.
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Post by Tom on Apr 12, 2021 7:38:59 GMT -5
I think most of us, me included, believe you....it's the "when" at least I'm more curious about. When? Probably in the mid to late '90's... It is tempting to assign anti-catholic bias, sans evidence but there may have been be other factors at work. NESCAC had 10 school members which is a perfect fit for their football season and works well for basketball. Why change? Also, I knew guys from Bowdoin, Amherst & Williams who did not think as highly of HC academically as I did at that time. They viewed the school as primarily one known for its athletics not academics. In fact one said HC was" big time" in f-ball & b-ball. Some pointed out that even if it were possible it would take a drastic move by the school and an upgrading of its academic profile for the school to be considered for admission. I don't believe it would be accurate or fair to ascribe their opinion of HC to anti-Catholic bias. (sort of like a sour grapes argument?) I was gung ho for our entry into the NESCAC. Thought it would have been a perfect landing spot. I was wrong. Over the years looking at the bigger picture, including many of the well stated opinions by some posters I have come to the conclusion that such a move would not have worked out. Tradition, possibly academics(?) & attitudes on all sides were against the move. The rumor at the time was that HC had to get rid of its Catholic affiliation for the secular NESCAC to even consider a bid for admission
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