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Post by hcpride on Jun 15, 2020 15:26:34 GMT -5
Memphis used to have "Southwestern at Memphis College" , a nice, small liberal arts school, well-respected for its academics. Maybe 30-35 years ago the school changed its name to "Rhodes College", supposedly after a former professor. Of course, if some HS students think they are getting an association with the famed Rhodes Scholarship it's not the fault of the college..... /\ The Rhodes statues are in trouble in England right now: www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/09/protesters-rally-in-oxford-for-removal-of-cecil-rhodes-statueApparently the "Rhodes Must Fall" movement has joined forces with BLM over this one. So maybe that college will go back to Southwestern at Memphis College
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 15, 2020 16:30:02 GMT -5
I taught at Algonquin, as did another board member (he taught there a lot longer than I). Never heard a complaint about the name, although I was pretty sure at some point the nickname "Tomahawks" was going to spark debate. Nipmuc Regional, Tantasqua Regional, on and on. At least King Philip Regional should be safe as it is named in honor of a great Native American Leader like the ubiquitous John F. Kennedy Jr. High Schools and Martin Luther King Boulevards were named after great leaders. Really any public entity named for Native Americans who occupied the area originally is done to honor them. You would think any objections would have been heard and respected during the process to name them. There must have had to be votes by public boards to select a name. But times change and if there is broad heartfelt objections now, a rose by any other name still smells as sweet, so it isn't the end of the world if something gets re-named by a public vote.
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Post by hc87 on Jun 15, 2020 16:45:50 GMT -5
I've coached tennis at King Philip the last 5 years....nevah (not that I expected to) heard any grumblings about it.
While I was at Dartmouth High for years, the Indians mascot issue would percolate up every few years or so. Ovah the years, much has been done to make sure no derogatory issues (ala Chief Wahoo, tomohawk chop etc) were evah used. Mascot has remained but I can see it being an issue again during these times.
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Post by Tom on Jun 16, 2020 9:51:30 GMT -5
I taught at Algonquin, as did another board member (he taught there a lot longer than I). Never heard a complaint about the name, although I was pretty sure at some point the nickname "Tomahawks" was going to spark debate. At least King Philip Regional should be safe as it is named in honor of a great Native American Leader like the ubiquitous John F. Kennedy Jr. High Schools and Martin Luther King Boulevards were named after great leaders. Really any public entity named for Native Americans who occupied the area originally is done to honor them. You would think any objections would have been heard and respected during the process to name them. There must have had to be votes by public boards to select a name. You have no faith in people's ability to be offended. There is someone out there who's ancestor was killed during King Phillip's War who is traumatized. I agree that these kind of names are meant as an honor. I understand people getting wound up about the Washington Redskins. I don't understand the problem with Algonquin Regional High School and it feels like people looking for a reason to be offended
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 16, 2020 10:34:01 GMT -5
At least King Philip Regional should be safe as it is named in honor of a great Native American Leader like the ubiquitous John F. Kennedy Jr. High Schools and Martin Luther King Boulevards were named after great leaders. Really any public entity named for Native Americans who occupied the area originally is done to honor them. You would think any objections would have been heard and respected during the process to name them. There must have had to be votes by public boards to select a name. You have no faith in people's ability to be offended. There is someone out there who's ancestor was killed during King Phillip's War who is traumatized. I agree that these kind of names are meant as an honor. I understand people getting wound up about the Washington Redskins. I don't understand the problem with Algonquin Regional High School and it feels like people looking for a reason to be offended
Yes, indeed. As well, there is a competition among a certain faction of society to see who can be the first to discern bigotry in previously unobjectionable places.
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Post by Sader Fan on Jun 16, 2020 10:55:50 GMT -5
I thought HC made it quite clear that it was the medieval crusader that was being tossed. Why on earth would a northern high school, particularly in a state which sent so many regiments to fight in the Civil War and which was the hotbed of abolition, adopt the Confederacy with all its trappings? Other than to be thumb-your-nose different? My wife is from Walpole and went to Walpole high school. The team moniker used to be the “Hilltoppers” which did not exactly strike fear in opponents so the school changed It to the “Rebels”. Walpole hired a football coach named John Lee a year or two later. Lee was very successful at Walpole for many years winning championships and Walpole was consistently ranked in the top 20. They called him “General Lee” and brought out the Confederate Flag and the band played Dixie. Some people believe that the name change was made in Lee’s honor. This is not the case but identifying it with the Confederacy was related to His hire.
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 16, 2020 15:41:43 GMT -5
I thought HC made it quite clear that it was the medieval crusader that was being tossed. Why on earth would a northern high school, particularly in a state which sent so many regiments to fight in the Civil War and which was the hotbed of abolition, adopt the Confederacy with all its trappings? Other than to be thumb-your-nose different? My wife is from Walpole and went to Walpole high school. The team moniker used to be the “Hilltoppers” which did not exactly strike fear in opponents so the school changed It to the “Rebels”. Walpole hired a football coach named John Lee a year or two later. Lee was very successful at Walpole for many years winning championships and Walpole was consistently ranked in the top 20. They called him “General Lee” and brought out the Confederate Flag and the band played Dixie. Some people believe that the name change was made in Lee’s honor. This is not the case but identifying it with the Confederacy was related to His hire. It was harmless schtick back then. Now some people are offended and have felt the freedom to sensitize the rest of us. If I was on the School Committee I would vote to change the name. When I was a kid my town played the other high school in Walpole, Norfolk County Agricultural High School, "The Aggies" and we used to make animal sounds at their fans. I assume that is still in bad taste but not worth protesting over.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jun 16, 2020 16:08:38 GMT -5
If you really wanted to, you could pick apart every mascot in the PL and demand their mascot be changed.
American Eagles -- An "eagle" is too patriotic and not welcoming for those who are not from America. In fact, it alienates all foreign people, of which there are many at AU. Offensive.
Army Black Knights -- "Black knights" are usually portrayed as villainous figures who use this anonymity for misdeeds. The character is sometimes associated with death or darkness. So, these knights were / are murderers? Offensive.
Boston U Terriers -- A "terrier" is a type of dog that was originally bred to hunt vermin. So, this dog was specifically bred to kill another living being? Offensive.
Bucknell Bison -- "Bison" are among the most dangerous animals encountered by visitors to the various North American national parks and will attack humans if provoked. Attacking a person against their will? Offensive.
Colgate Raiders -- Colgate was formerly the "Red Raiders" but dropped the Red from their name about 20 years ago. The nickname Red Raiders was originally coined by Dexter Teed as a reference to the new maroon uniforms of the 1932 football team, but later associations for many years created references to Native American caricatures and mascots. Not good enough for me. Colgate needs to rid themselves of Raiders altogether as the older generation may still associate Colgate with "Red Raiders", which is offensive.
Holy Cross Crusaders -- Let's not even go down this path.
Lafayette Leopards -- Leopards are hunted illegally, and their body parts are smuggled in the wildlife trade for medicinal practices and decoration. How disgusting of Lafayette to make light of such a terrible problem. Offensive.
Lehigh Mountain Hawks -- Lehigh thought they could rid themselves of any scrutiny when they did away with their Engineer mascot, but they're not fooling me. As is typical of hawk-eagles, the mountain hawk-eagle is a forest dwelling opportunistic predator who readily varies its prey selection between birds, mammals and reptiles along with other vertebrates. So, basically, Lehigh is associating their college with a predator. Not smart, especially considering the #MeToo environment. Offensive.
Loyola Greyhounds -- The "Greyhound" is a breed of dog, a sighthound which has been bred for coursing game and greyhound racing. Is Loyola endorsing games of chance to their student-athletes by having a greyhound as their mascot? Incredibly irresponsible and offensive.
Navy Midshipmen -- A midshipman is an officer of the lowest rank, in the Royal Navy, United States Navy, and many Commonwealth navies. Incredibly insensitive that Navy would associate themselves with this position in the military -- what about the pacifists who are against war? Offensive.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jun 16, 2020 18:16:30 GMT -5
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 16, 2020 18:22:22 GMT -5
Will Virginia eject “Mr Jefferson” from the campus he designed?
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Post by hcpride on Jun 16, 2020 20:48:45 GMT -5
Berkeley (CA) school district is renaming Washington and Jefferson elementary schools as part of their resolution in support of BLM (https://www.berkeleyschools.net/2020/06/resolution-in-support-of-black-lives-matter/) Looks like the Lincoln w/slave statue (‘The Emancipation’) in Boston is on the way out. www.wcvb.com/article/boston-controversial-abraham-lincoln-statue-calls-for-removal/32860548At first I thought some historically-challenged folks thought Lincoln was a confederate or a slave owner. Apparently some do not like the artist’s depiction of the freed slave.
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Post by timholycross on Jun 16, 2020 21:48:39 GMT -5
Would one expect any less from that bastion of so-called progressive thought?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 16, 2020 23:07:14 GMT -5
Jefferson may be the last redoubt--if he goes down the mob will run right over Washington and maybe even Lincoln. Maybe this is what it will take to stop the insanity
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Post by rgs318 on Jun 17, 2020 7:48:24 GMT -5
Stop the insanity? It may simply see new "causes" for people who believe their personal standards give them license to run roughshod over the opinions of those who may disagree.
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Post by hcpride on Jun 17, 2020 7:59:43 GMT -5
I never thought banishing/vandalizing statues (or burning books, for that matter) was the way to go. Once banishing/vandalizing statues became OK with the woke crew (I'm thinking Columbus is where it started) it is a very slippery slope that can easily include all those who were confederates, or ever owned solves, or ever condoned slavery...and then on to those who ever said things that nowadays would be considered racist (the Gandhi statue in DC was vandalized...can the FDR monument in DC be far behind?). Or artistic choice in depicting freed slaves (Lincoln statue in Boston/DC).
Lots of statues and memorials to Ben Franklin and US Grant...slaveholders...the mob will come for them too.
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Post by Tom on Jun 17, 2020 8:14:36 GMT -5
I don't consider myself an easily offended person. However, there are times when I see how a reasonable person could be offended by some of this stuff. I also think there are lots of people going crazy trying to find new things to be offended about. I think that the growing number of ridiculous stuff desensitizes us to legitimate concerns. My first reaction when I hear anyone wanting to get rid of something that's been acceptable forever is to think "here we go again" Legitimate issues will get dismissed by the radical that cried "wolf"
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jun 17, 2020 8:20:48 GMT -5
If you really wanted to, you could pick apart every mascot in the PL and demand their mascot be changed. American Eagles -- An "eagle" is too patriotic and not welcoming for those who are not from America. In fact, it alienates all foreign people, of which there are many at AU. Offensive. Army Black Knights -- "Black knights" are usually portrayed as villainous figures who use this anonymity for misdeeds. The character is sometimes associated with death or darkness. So, these knights were / are murderers? Offensive. Boston U Terriers -- A "terrier" is a type of dog that was originally bred to hunt vermin. So, this dog was specifically bred to kill another living being? Offensive. Bucknell Bison -- "Bison" are among the most dangerous animals encountered by visitors to the various North American national parks and will attack humans if provoked. Attacking a person against their will? Offensive. Colgate Raiders -- Colgate was formerly the "Red Raiders" but dropped the Red from their name about 20 years ago. The nickname Red Raiders was originally coined by Dexter Teed as a reference to the new maroon uniforms of the 1932 football team, but later associations for many years created references to Native American caricatures and mascots. Not good enough for me. Colgate needs to rid themselves of Raiders altogether as the older generation may still associate Colgate with "Red Raiders", which is offensive. Holy Cross Crusaders -- Let's not even go down this path. Lafayette Leopards -- Leopards are hunted illegally, and their body parts are smuggled in the wildlife trade for medicinal practices and decoration. How disgusting of Lafayette to make light of such a terrible problem. Offensive. Lehigh Mountain Hawks -- Lehigh thought they could rid themselves of any scrutiny when they did away with their Engineer mascot, but they're not fooling me. As is typical of hawk-eagles, the mountain hawk-eagle is a forest dwelling opportunistic predator who readily varies its prey selection between birds, mammals and reptiles along with other vertebrates. So, basically, Lehigh is associating their college with a predator. Not smart, especially considering the #MeToo environment. Offensive. Loyola Greyhounds -- The "Greyhound" is a breed of dog, a sighthound which has been bred for coursing game and greyhound racing. Is Loyola endorsing games of chance to their student-athletes by having a greyhound as their mascot? Incredibly irresponsible and offensive. Navy Midshipmen -- A midshipman is an officer of the lowest rank, in the Royal Navy, United States Navy, and many Commonwealth navies. Incredibly insensitive that Navy would associate themselves with this position in the military -- what about the pacifists who are against war? Offensive. Thank you for posting the annual version of a post that I sarcastically put up every year. I think one of the last ones I did I said that according to our Catholic tradition, the only appropriate mascot free from blemish would be the Holy Cross Jesus'... but using the Lord's name in vain would violate the Ten Commandments and thus relegate us to eternal damnation. We'd also make our Jewish fellow classmates and opponents offended (unless they took pride that Jesus was a Jew himself, but perhaps would say that the imagery of him in sandals was perpetuating systematic oppression of folks of Jewish ancestry as second class citizens of poverty).
You just can't win!
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Post by alum on Jun 17, 2020 8:51:37 GMT -5
Jefferson may be the last redoubt--if he goes down the mob will run right over Washington and maybe even Lincoln. Maybe this is what it will take to stop the insanity There is no doubt that Jefferson deserves a great deal of credit for the creation of the great American experiment. I am willing to compartmentalize and hold him in high regard for that even though he owned other humans. I can even sympathize with the argument that, as long as this aspect of his life is prominently recognized, that he can be honored. My difficulty here is the Sally Hemings piece of the puzzle. He impregnated his enslaved person at least six times. I know that their "relationship" was different than some and that he, and perhaps even she at some point, may have thought that it was consensual in some way, but she was really not free to say no except when she was with him in France. Here is a short piece from the Monticello website www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-sally-hemings-a-brief-account/and a book excerpt from Harvard Law Professor Randall Kennedy www.nytimes.com/2003/01/26/books/chapters/interracial-intimacies.html(I don't read a lot about 18th and 19th century US history so credit for what I know goes to one of my daughters who has been reading about the Sally Hemings saga for years.)
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 17, 2020 9:28:01 GMT -5
Another cause that might gain traction is sexism/women's right to vote. Could every president before Wilson be attacked by the warriors for not leading a campaign to give women the right to vote?
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Post by alum on Jun 17, 2020 11:00:58 GMT -5
Another cause that might gain traction is sexism/women's right to vote. Could every president before Wilson be attacked by the warriors for not leading a campaign to give women the right to vote? Have you ever heard the expression "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good?" I know it might come as a shock to you, but many people, including some of those "warriors" you speak of mockingly, understand it and are willing to meet halfway.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jun 17, 2020 11:05:55 GMT -5
Another cause that might gain traction is sexism/women's right to vote. Could every president before Wilson be attacked by the warriors for not leading a campaign to give women the right to vote? Have you ever heard the expression "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good?" I know it might come as a shock to you, but many people, including some of those "warriors" you speak of mockingly, understand it and are willing to meet halfway. The problem is, where is the line drawn? First, it's Robert E. Lee's statue being torn down. Next it is Columbus. Just how far will it go? I look to a passage from 1984, which is very relevant today: Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped.
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Post by hcpride on Jun 17, 2020 11:33:05 GMT -5
Another cause that might gain traction is sexism/women's right to vote. Could every president before Wilson be attacked by the warriors for not leading a campaign to give women the right to vote? In the same fashion that every president during slavery might be argued as having condoned slavery. Racists! Wreck their statues. (And those who question vandalism/banishment/disappearing of these statues, they must be racists too! Silence!)
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Post by alum on Jun 17, 2020 11:43:23 GMT -5
Have you ever heard the expression "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good?" I know it might come as a shock to you, but many people, including some of those "warriors" you speak of mockingly, understand it and are willing to meet halfway. The problem is, where is the line drawn? First, it's Robert E. Lee's statue being torn down. Next it is Columbus. Just how far will it go? I look to a passage from 1984, which is very relevant today: Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped.
So, because it is hard to know where to draw the lines, we should do nothing at all? I think that it is amusing that you cite "1984," a book presenting a dystopian view of the world in which a totalitarian regime has erased history. That's what authoritarians do. The people protesting and advocating removal of the names of people who owned other people as chattel will tell you are fighting against a system which kept them oppressed and continues to do so, albeit in different ways. Every time I hear someone say that we should keep a 1950's Civil War monument so that we can learn from it, I want to vomit. The racist jerks who erected those statues to get back at "arrogant" (that's the polite word for "uppity") people like MLK and Rosa Parks weren't doing it so we could learn from the mistakes of the past!
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 17, 2020 11:46:59 GMT -5
Another cause that might gain traction is sexism/women's right to vote. Could every president before Wilson be attacked by the warriors for not leading a campaign to give women the right to vote? Have you ever heard the expression "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good?" I know it might come as a shock to you, but many people, including some of those "warriors" you speak of mockingly, understand it and are willing to meet halfway. How would you know that it might come as a shock to me"? In fact, it does not come as a shock to me. However, would it come as a shock to you that there are people, a certain subset of the broader term "social justice warriors", out there who will stop at nothing as they seek to promote their agendas? I guess we'll just have to watch this over the next few years and see how far it goes.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jun 17, 2020 11:47:06 GMT -5
Just so I’m understanding your positioning then, alum, every single statue or monument that is of a person who fought for the confederacy should be torn down. Do I have that correct? Does this also include names of schools, buildings, school mascots, etc.?
Should everything that represents a wrongdoing from the past be eliminated from visibility within our society?
Again, I ask, where is the line drawn? Do the Columbus statues and the hundreds of roads named after him come down?
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