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Post by alum on Jun 17, 2020 12:22:13 GMT -5
Just so I’m understanding your positioning then, alum, every single statue or monument that is of a person who fought for the confederacy should be torn down. Do I have that correct? Does this also include names of schools, buildings, school mascots, etc.? Should everything that represents a wrongdoing from the past be eliminated from visibility within our society? Again, I ask, where is the line drawn? Do the Columbus statues and the hundreds of roads named after him come down? I would ask the owners of every statue and monument that glorifies the Confederacy (because in doing so they are glorifying slavery no matter what anyone thinks) to take them down. I don't favor destroying other's property so I am not in favor of people doing it on their own. I would prefer that they sit in peacefully (and socially distant with masks until we have a vaccine.) Similarly, I don't have a problem with asking everyone who controls the naming of schools, etc. to change the name and peacefully protesting until they do. If peaceful protest doesn't change things, I am in favor of economic retaliation and massive public shaming. We will get to a point where we will know who the racists are and who they are not. I look at the founding period a little differently than I do the Civil War era. At that time, slavery existed throughout the world that was known to the founders. While it doesn't make it right, I am willing to recognize that "everyone was doing it" and I will give some the benefit of the doubt. In the years after the founding, slavery was abolished in Europe and Canada so by the era leading up to the Civil War, I think everyone should have been able to search their souls and acknowledge it was evil. Therefore, so long as we are upfront with the fact that they were slaveholders, I don't think that it is absolutely necessary to strike their names from various places in which they are honored. I am sure others disagree and I get their point. Mount Vernon has this on its site acknowledging that the first president owned slaves until his death www.mountvernon.org/george-washington/slavery/ten-facts-about-washington-slavery/I find the whole Columbus thing a little odd. As I am sure that many know, much of the glorification of Columbus comes due to the lobbying of Italian Americans for a founder of their own. We also know that Columbus was hardly the first European to arrive in North America--Leif Ericson beat him soundly and others likely did as well. It goes without saying that there were people living in what today we know as the Americas for millennia before Columbus. So, because I think that Columbus should be considered a relatively minor historical figure and has received more than his due, I have no problem with putting him out to pasture. I like a day off as much as anyone else, so we can keep the second Monday in October as a holiday. Some want to call it Indigenous People's Day and I am Ok with that. Again, if someone thinks his statutes should come down, lobby their owners to do it, and if you fail, peacefully protest until it happens or until you can change the hearts and minds of those who remain intransigent. I would vote to take them down and to change the names of buildings, etc. I would also note that with regard to name changing, many Catholic dioceses have begun changing the names of parishes to reflect the diversity of modern American Catholicism. From what I saw, there was a little grumbling at the start but people seem to have moved on. For all I know, some call their parishes by their old names when talking among friends just as Tom and I call that upcoming golf tournament the GHO.
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Post by alum on Jun 17, 2020 12:24:56 GMT -5
Oh, and I would bet that the next debate at HC will not be about dropping the Crusader. I think that it will be about finally getting rid of Mulledy and I am absolutely in favor of that.
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Post by hcpride on Jun 17, 2020 12:30:46 GMT -5
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Post by alum on Jun 17, 2020 12:46:17 GMT -5
If the artist had shown Lincoln taking the man's hand to lift him up, I think that the gentleman who started the petition would have seen this differently. I can see his argument that the black man is still on his knees. It is a close call because a lot depends upon how you interpret the work of a long dead artist. I wonder if there is some historical record to tell us what the artist was thinking. Maybe there is a compromise in which some context can be added. Maybe a century is long enough and a new statue could replace it. Would that be so bad?
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Post by hcpride on Jun 17, 2020 13:05:42 GMT -5
One sees all sorts of art that one dislikes for one reason or another. For the woke crew the answer is cancel.
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Post by ndgradbuthcfan on Jun 17, 2020 13:20:07 GMT -5
Andrew Bacevich, a West Point grad and later a history teacher there (he now teaches at BU) has stated that the US must be the only country in the world that has named military bases after traitors who led armies that killed tens of thousands of US soldiers. I agree with that. As for the Lincoln statue, it is in poor taste and should be replaced.
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Post by mm67 on Jun 17, 2020 13:36:28 GMT -5
Just so I’m understanding your positioning then, alum, every single statue or monument that is of a person who fought for the confederacy should be torn down. Do I have that correct? Does this also include names of schools, buildings, school mascots, etc.? Should everything that represents a wrongdoing from the past be eliminated from visibility within our society? Again, I ask, where is the line drawn? Do the Columbus statues and the hundreds of roads named after him come down? I would ask the owners of every statue and monument that glorifies the Confederacy (because in doing so they are glorifying slavery no matter what anyone thinks) to take them down. I don't favor destroying other's property so I am not in favor of people doing it on their own. I would prefer that they sit in peacefully (and socially distant with masks until we have a vaccine.) Similarly, I don't have a problem with asking everyone who controls the naming of schools, etc. to change the name and peacefully protesting until they do. If peaceful protest doesn't change things, I am in favor of economic retaliation and massive public shaming. We will get to a point where we will know who the racists are and who they are not. I look at the founding period a little differently than I do the Civil War era. At that time, slavery existed throughout the world that was known to the founders. While it doesn't make it right, I am willing to recognize that "everyone was doing it" and I will give some the benefit of the doubt. In the years after the founding, slavery was abolished in Europe and Canada so by the era leading up to the Civil War, I think everyone should have been able to search their souls and acknowledge it was evil. Therefore, so long as we are upfront with the fact that they were slaveholders, I don't think that it is absolutely necessary to strike their names from various places in which they are honored. I am sure others disagree and I get their point. Mount Vernon has this on its site acknowledging that the first president owned slaves until his death www.mountvernon.org/george-washington/slavery/ten-facts-about-washington-slavery/I find the whole Columbus thing a little odd. As I am sure that many know, much of the glorification of Columbus comes due to the lobbying of Italian Americans for a founder of their own. We also know that Columbus was hardly the first European to arrive in North America--Leif Ericson beat him soundly and others likely did as well. It goes without saying that there were people living in what today we know as the Americas for millennia before Columbus. So, because I think that Columbus should be considered a relatively minor historical figure and has received more than his due, I have no problem with putting him out to pasture. I like a day off as much as anyone else, so we can keep the second Monday in October as a holiday. Some want to call it Indigenous People's Day and I am Ok with that. Again, if someone thinks his statutes should come down, lobby their owners to do it, and if you fail, peacefully protest until it happens or until you can change the hearts and minds of those who remain intransigent. I would vote to take them down and to change the names of buildings, etc. I would also note that with regard to name changing, many Catholic dioceses have begun changing the names of parishes to reflect the diversity of modern American Catholicism. From what I saw, there was a little grumbling at the start but people seem to have moved on. For all I know, some call their parishes by their old names when talking among friends just as Tom and I call that upcoming golf tournament the GHO. The operating word is "Discovery" and its aftermath. I suggest that you research the meaning of the word discovery in its historical context. Also, if one examines the aftermath of Columbus' discovery European colonization, destruction of the Amer_Indian civilization, imprtatation of enslaved persons, the founding of Mexico, Latin America, WI,USA, etc, one could hardly label Columbus as a minor historical. And let me be clear, I for one do favor the removal of the Columbus statues for his role in the destruction of so many lives. Columbus - Hero? or Villain?
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Post by alum on Jun 17, 2020 13:41:08 GMT -5
I would ask the owners of every statue and monument that glorifies the Confederacy (because in doing so they are glorifying slavery no matter what anyone thinks) to take them down. I don't favor destroying other's property so I am not in favor of people doing it on their own. I would prefer that they sit in peacefully (and socially distant with masks until we have a vaccine.) Similarly, I don't have a problem with asking everyone who controls the naming of schools, etc. to change the name and peacefully protesting until they do. If peaceful protest doesn't change things, I am in favor of economic retaliation and massive public shaming. We will get to a point where we will know who the racists are and who they are not. I look at the founding period a little differently than I do the Civil War era. At that time, slavery existed throughout the world that was known to the founders. While it doesn't make it right, I am willing to recognize that "everyone was doing it" and I will give some the benefit of the doubt. In the years after the founding, slavery was abolished in Europe and Canada so by the era leading up to the Civil War, I think everyone should have been able to search their souls and acknowledge it was evil. Therefore, so long as we are upfront with the fact that they were slaveholders, I don't think that it is absolutely necessary to strike their names from various places in which they are honored. I am sure others disagree and I get their point. Mount Vernon has this on its site acknowledging that the first president owned slaves until his death www.mountvernon.org/george-washington/slavery/ten-facts-about-washington-slavery/I find the whole Columbus thing a little odd. As I am sure that many know, much of the glorification of Columbus comes due to the lobbying of Italian Americans for a founder of their own. We also know that Columbus was hardly the first European to arrive in North America--Leif Ericson beat him soundly and others likely did as well. It goes without saying that there were people living in what today we know as the Americas for millennia before Columbus. So, because I think that Columbus should be considered a relatively minor historical figure and has received more than his due, I have no problem with putting him out to pasture. I like a day off as much as anyone else, so we can keep the second Monday in October as a holiday. Some want to call it Indigenous People's Day and I am Ok with that. Again, if someone thinks his statutes should come down, lobby their owners to do it, and if you fail, peacefully protest until it happens or until you can change the hearts and minds of those who remain intransigent. I would vote to take them down and to change the names of buildings, etc. I would also note that with regard to name changing, many Catholic dioceses have begun changing the names of parishes to reflect the diversity of modern American Catholicism. From what I saw, there was a little grumbling at the start but people seem to have moved on. For all I know, some call their parishes by their old names when talking among friends just as Tom and I call that upcoming golf tournament the GHO. The operating word is "Discovery" and its aftermath. I suggest that you research the meaning of the word discovery in its historical context. Also, if one examines the aftermath of Columbus' discovery European colonization, destruction of the Amer_Indian civilization, imprtatation of enslaved persons, the founding of Mexico, Latin America, WI,USA, etc, one could hardly label Columbus as a minor historical. And let me be clear, I for one do favor the removal of the Columbus statues for his role in the destruction of so many lives. Columbus - Hero? or Villain? I think that he is minor because Europeans coming to the Americas in the late 1400's was inevitable. Everything you say about how Europeans took control of the Americas is, sadly, true. Certainly not a hero and probably one of many villains.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 17, 2020 13:54:45 GMT -5
Powered flight was inevitable but I think the Wright Brothers merit the honor of being recognized as the first to do it successfully.
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Post by rgs318 on Jun 17, 2020 14:34:50 GMT -5
I saw this on Facebook today:
History is not there for you to like or dislike. It is there for you to learn from. If it offends you, even better, because then you are less likely to repeat it. It’s not yours to erase or destroy. Forwell or for ill, It belongs to all of us!
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Post by alum on Jun 17, 2020 15:02:43 GMT -5
I saw this on Facebook today: History is not there for you to like or dislike. It is there for you to learn from. If it offends you, even better, because then you are less likely to repeat it. It’s not yours to erase or destroy. Forwell or for ill, It belongs to all of us! If you want to teach someone history, send them to the Legacy Museum built by the Equal Justice Initiative whose founder is Bryan Stevenson who received an honorary degree from HC. They can learn about enslavement, segregation, lynching and racism. museumandmemorial.eji.org/
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Post by Tom on Jun 17, 2020 15:16:52 GMT -5
In general, I'm not a fan of changing a lot of long standing things. However, if you think about it, it is kind of ridiculous that the stars and bars flew over the South Carolina state house for decades. The Bacevich quote makes a lot of sense. I don't see a lot of tributes to Benedict Arnold.
On the other hand, I'd guess there's some hallway at West Point with a list and probably paintings/photos of all the superintendents. I don't know that I'd be removing Robert E Lee from there. He was a superintendent. Maybe put an X over his photo. I think it is good and proper to have a statue of Lee at a Civil War museum or battlefield commemorative. Same for Mexican War. Not so much a park or town square. There is a way to use these things to recognize history without glorifying the negatives.
I am way harsher on the Civil War guys than the Revolutionary guys from the South. I am not climbing Mt Rushmore to chisel Washington and Jefferson off the mountainside
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Post by rgs318 on Jun 17, 2020 15:17:12 GMT -5
That could be a start. That quote could certainly apply to that museum. There is, of course, much more to history than that alone (even though it was founded by a Stevenson). If you think that, by itself, would teach someone "history" rather than simply a part of history, I feel you are mistaken.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jun 17, 2020 15:40:10 GMT -5
Do we have to change the faces on much of our currency? A few were slave owners.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 17, 2020 15:54:21 GMT -5
I think it’s time to “refresh” our currency. I have long advocated this. I would hold Washington and Lincoln sacrosanct but I think Hamilton has had a long enough run and Grant as well and maybe Jackson. My nominees (no recommendation for what bills they would be on) are Ronald Reagan, Dr M L King, and Thomas Edison. If we needed one more new face Dwight Eisenhower would be a good choice.
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Post by ndgradbuthcfan on Jun 17, 2020 17:08:33 GMT -5
I would eschew politicians (except Eisenhower). MLK and Edison are great choices. Also Jonas Salk and Mark Twain.
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Post by hcpride on Jun 17, 2020 17:53:28 GMT -5
Do we have to change the faces on much of our currency? A few were slave owners. Quite a few on our bills: Washington ($1) Slave owner Jefferson ($2) Slave owner Lincoln ($5) Not a slave owner, has been criticized for condoning slavery and moving slowly to end it. Hamilton ($10) Most likely not a slave owner (although his mother was a slave owner). He did participate in the slave trade: During his career, Hamilton did occasionally purchase or sell slaves for others as their legal representative, and one of Hamilton's grandsons interpreted some of these journal entries as being purchases for himself (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Hamilton#On_slavery) Andrew Jackson ($20) Slave Owner US Grant ($50) Slave owner Franklin $(100) Slave owner We can cancel our National Anthem - Francis Scott Key owned slaves. Obviously, folks like Wilson and FDR are widely considered racists by today's standards (just a matter of time till the mob turns on their statues) so they are not candidates to replace these folks.
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Post by alum on Jun 17, 2020 19:02:00 GMT -5
There has been a plan to put Harriet Tubman on a bill for a while. Apparently it takes some time for design.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 17, 2020 19:08:17 GMT -5
Great choice—would surely make her story more widely known
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Post by Crucis#1 on Jun 17, 2020 19:48:07 GMT -5
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 17, 2020 21:39:08 GMT -5
I think it’s time to “refresh” our currency. I have long advocated this. I would hold Washington and Lincoln sacrosanct but I think Hamilton has had a long enough run and Grant as well and maybe Jackson. My nominees (no recommendation for what bills they would be on) are Ronald Reagan, Dr M L King, and Thomas Edison. If we needed one more new face Dwight Eisenhower would be a good choice. Which one of your nominees has to have an operation to become a woman?
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Post by hcpride on Jun 18, 2020 4:58:58 GMT -5
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jun 18, 2020 6:32:42 GMT -5
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Post by alum on Jun 18, 2020 7:27:41 GMT -5
If a homeowner decides that she no longer likes a piece of artwork in her home or the flowers in his yard or the color of their car, must that person check with you before replacing it? Why the heck can't the people at Dartmouth look at something and say, "Hell, this stereotypical depiction of Native Americans isn't great. It has been here for a hundred years. Let's replace it with something new?" Do you complain if your neighbors decide to change the color of their houses or their political parties? Why the need to keep every damn old thing just because it's old? You know, I would imagine that when Holy Cross did away with mandatory chapel attendance, a whole bunch of guys from the class of 1913 were really ticked off.
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Post by Tom on Jun 18, 2020 7:47:37 GMT -5
Part of the original mission of Dartmouth was to educate the local indians. That's why they have things like the weathervane.
Eisenhower used to be on the silver dollar
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