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Post by purplehaze on Jul 9, 2020 16:23:30 GMT -5
from the Dartmouth release:
The changes, which will eliminate five varsity athletic teams and a number of staff positions, will give Dartmouth more flexibility in admissions, reducing the number of recruited athletes in incoming classes by 10%. The move also contributes to the steps Dartmouth is taking to address budget challenges, including a projected $150 million financial deficit brought on by the COVID-19 pandemic.
The teams to be eliminated, effective immediately, are men's and women's swimming and diving, men's and women's golf, and men's lightweight rowing, dropping to 30 the number of varsity teams. A total of about 110 student-athletes participate on these five teams. (closing their golf course was also mentioned)
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Post by timholycross on Jul 9, 2020 16:36:33 GMT -5
Ironic how the sports listed were relatively safe ones.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Jul 9, 2020 18:43:26 GMT -5
Never let a good crisis go to waste
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 9, 2020 20:07:56 GMT -5
I guess even in the Ivy League $150 million is nothing to sneeze at. Stanford just dropped a number of sports also. If these A-list schools are dropping sports to save money, how are small private schools like Anna Maria, Becker, Assumption, Nichols, etc. going to make it? Answer: they will have to and they currently do offer programs that are in demand in the marketplace. I hope innovation and adaptation is on the table when TPTB at HC meet.
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Post by bfoley82 on Jul 9, 2020 20:33:28 GMT -5
I guess even in the Ivy League $150 million is nothing to sneeze at. Stanford just dropped a number of sports also. If these A-list schools are dropping sports to save money, how are small private schools like Anna Maria, Becker, Assumption, Nichols, etc. going to make it? Answer: they will have to and they currently do offer programs that are in demand in the marketplace. I hope innovation and adaptation is on the table when TPTB at HC meet. Becker cut Men’s Lacrosse and Field Hockey this summer. Anna Maria makes nearly 2 million dollars on their football program per year www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/12/27/sports/dropping-football-northeastern.amp.htmlNichols has the most modern campus in the group with nice buildings so they are not hurting for money at all.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Jul 9, 2020 20:48:45 GMT -5
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 9, 2020 21:38:09 GMT -5
It might be a poor strategic move for HC to drop any sports. What I have gleaned from this board is that being able to offer D-1 minor sports is a calling card to a cohort of students who are above average payers and above average academically.
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 9, 2020 21:53:25 GMT -5
Dartmouth is closing down a facility (Country Club) Holy Cross is building them (Luth, Jo, Prior). Two ships passing in the night, but who's to say both ships aren't on course for their appropriate destinations?
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Post by hcpride on Jul 10, 2020 6:46:27 GMT -5
Stanford's list: The Cardinal sports teams to be eliminated are men's and women's fencing, field hockey, lightweight rowing, men's rowing, co-ed and women's sailing, squash, synchronized swimming, men's volleyball and wrestling. www.cnn.com/2020/07/08/us/stanford-varsity-spt-trnd/index.html(Also, in Dartmouth's case it is reported that money-saving was not nearly the primary motivation as only 2M will be saved...Covid-19 response cost them 150M.)
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 10, 2020 7:25:35 GMT -5
Stanford's list: The Cardinal sports teams to be eliminated are men's and women's fencing, field hockey, lightweight rowing, men's rowing, co-ed and women's sailing, squash, synchronized swimming, men's volleyball and wrestling. www.cnn.com/2020/07/08/us/stanford-varsity-spt-trnd/index.html(Also, in Dartmouth's case it is reported that money-saving was not nearly the primary motivation as only 2M will be saved...Covid-19 response cost them 150M.) I don't think HC has stated a hard figure that corresponds to Dartmouth's $150 million. But I'm going to sit down before opening any emails from Holy Cross in the near future.
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Post by Tom on Jul 10, 2020 8:22:35 GMT -5
Anna Maria makes nearly 2 million dollars on their football program per year A little leap there I don't think that a 2 million per year increase in tuition revenues from ten years ago is the same as 2 million profit for the football program. Heck, all else being equal, a one percent increase per year in tuition would be netting more than 2 million this year than ten years ago. Like pretty much every college who's team isn't on TV, I assume Anna Maria loses money on football. Maybe, like HC, they think the enhanced college experience that football brings is worth that cost, but that's different than saying football is turning a 2 million profit per year
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Post by alum on Jul 10, 2020 8:39:40 GMT -5
Stanford's list: The Cardinal sports teams to be eliminated are men's and women's fencing, field hockey, lightweight rowing, men's rowing, co-ed and women's sailing, squash, synchronized swimming, men's volleyball and wrestling. www.cnn.com/2020/07/08/us/stanford-varsity-spt-trnd/index.html(Also, in Dartmouth's case it is reported that money-saving was not nearly the primary motivation as only 2M will be saved...Covid-19 response cost them 150M.) I don't think HC has stated a hard figure that corresponds to Dartmouth's $150 million. But I'm going to sit down before opening any emails from Holy Cross in the near future. This might include costs related to their hospital.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Jul 10, 2020 8:54:17 GMT -5
Dartmouth elimination of teams, like Stanford’s is to open admission slots that have been designated for athletes.
A change in focus for both schools beyond the mere cost of supporting these teams. Speculation is an excellent Oboe or Cello player for example, will now have better odds of admission now that 100 plus reserved spots will no longer be dedicated to athletics.
Some have also speculated that the Varsity Blues scandal may also be a catalyst in the decision to eliminate the sports that were terminated.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jul 10, 2020 9:30:24 GMT -5
Stanford's list: The Cardinal sports teams to be eliminated are men's and women's fencing, field hockey, lightweight rowing, men's rowing, co-ed and women's sailing, squash, synchronized swimming, men's volleyball and wrestling. www.cnn.com/2020/07/08/us/stanford-varsity-spt-trnd/index.html(Also, in Dartmouth's case it is reported that money-saving was not nearly the primary motivation as only 2M will be saved...Covid-19 response cost them 150M.) I don't think HC has stated a hard figure that corresponds to Dartmouth's $150 million. But I'm going to sit down before opening any emails from Holy Cross in the near future. I wonder if the demographics of the athletes on these teams were problematic?
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Post by hcpride on Jul 10, 2020 9:42:12 GMT -5
Dartmouth frees up about 27 slots per year for non-recruited athletes by doing this (apparently that is a 10% annual cut in recruits).
For some of these Ivies if you eliminate athlete slots, eliminate URM slots, eliminate legacy slots, etc. it is a very high bar for a very smart (but otherwise unhooked) kid to gain admission.
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Post by bfoley82 on Jul 10, 2020 10:40:21 GMT -5
Anna Maria makes nearly 2 million dollars on their football program per year A little leap there I don't think that a 2 million per year increase in tuition revenues from ten years ago is the same as 2 million profit for the football program. Heck, all else being equal, a one percent increase per year in tuition would be netting more than 2 million this year than ten years ago. Like pretty much every college who's team isn't on TV, I assume Anna Maria loses money on football. Maybe, like HC, they think the enhanced college experience that football brings is worth that cost, but that's different than saying football is turning a 2 million profit per year This is DIRECTLY from the New York Times article From year to year, there are 100 to 110 football players on the roster who, after need-based financial aid from the college, pay an average of $20,000 in tuition and board. The football program expenses, including coaching salaries, equipment and staff, is roughly $425,000. The math of football’s worth is simple: a net gain for Anna Maria of $1.5 million to $1.8 million. Since Anna Maria plays in Division III, the N.C.A.A.’s lowest, and largest, level of competition, athletic scholarships are prohibited.
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Post by Tom on Jul 10, 2020 11:01:31 GMT -5
A little leap there I don't think that a 2 million per year increase in tuition revenues from ten years ago is the same as 2 million profit for the football program. Heck, all else being equal, a one percent increase per year in tuition would be netting more than 2 million this year than ten years ago. Like pretty much every college who's team isn't on TV, I assume Anna Maria loses money on football. Maybe, like HC, they think the enhanced college experience that football brings is worth that cost, but that's different than saying football is turning a 2 million profit per year This is DIRECTLY from the New York Times article From year to year, there are 100 to 110 football players on the roster who, after need-based financial aid from the college, pay an average of $20,000 in tuition and board. The football program expenses, including coaching salaries, equipment and staff, is roughly $425,000. The math of football’s worth is simple: a net gain for Anna Maria of $1.5 million to $1.8 million. Since Anna Maria plays in Division III, the N.C.A.A.’s lowest, and largest, level of competition, athletic scholarships are prohibited. If there were no football, would the school's enrollment go down or would they have admitted 100 other students to fill the open capacity?
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Post by alum on Jul 10, 2020 11:19:53 GMT -5
This is DIRECTLY from the New York Times article From year to year, there are 100 to 110 football players on the roster who, after need-based financial aid from the college, pay an average of $20,000 in tuition and board. The football program expenses, including coaching salaries, equipment and staff, is roughly $425,000. The math of football’s worth is simple: a net gain for Anna Maria of $1.5 million to $1.8 million. Since Anna Maria plays in Division III, the N.C.A.A.’s lowest, and largest, level of competition, athletic scholarships are prohibited. If there were no football, would the school's enrollment go down or would they have admitted 100 other students to fill the open capacity? I agree that adding football has been good for Anna Maria. I am guessing that it has attracted more male students than it was getting before. I would point out, however, that an additional 100 students generates additional cost other than the football expenses. Those kids eat, go to class, sleep in a dorm which needs to be cleaned and heated, etc.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Jul 10, 2020 11:25:30 GMT -5
I guess even in the Ivy League $150 million is nothing to sneeze at. Stanford just dropped a number of sports also. If these A-list schools are dropping sports to save money, how are small private schools like Anna Maria, Becker, Assumption, Nichols, etc. going to make it? Answer: they will have to and they currently do offer programs that are in demand in the marketplace. I hope innovation and adaptation is on the table when TPTB at HC meet. Becker cut Men’s Lacrosse and Field Hockey this summer. Anna Maria makes nearly 2 million dollars on their football program per year www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/12/27/sports/dropping-football-northeastern.amp.htmlNichols has the most modern campus in the group with nice buildings so they are not hurting for money at all. Nichols has an endowment of $14 million and an acceptance rate of 93%
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Post by bfoley82 on Jul 10, 2020 11:58:24 GMT -5
This is DIRECTLY from the New York Times article From year to year, there are 100 to 110 football players on the roster who, after need-based financial aid from the college, pay an average of $20,000 in tuition and board. The football program expenses, including coaching salaries, equipment and staff, is roughly $425,000. The math of football’s worth is simple: a net gain for Anna Maria of $1.5 million to $1.8 million. Since Anna Maria plays in Division III, the N.C.A.A.’s lowest, and largest, level of competition, athletic scholarships are prohibited. If there were no football, would the school's enrollment go down or would they have admitted 100 other students to fill the open capacity? Why you think they added Men's and Women's Hockey in the last two years? They also added Women's and Men's Rugby as varsity programs. The reason is they are struggling to get kids to go to Anna Maria and they are using athletics to recruit students.
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Post by Tom on Jul 10, 2020 12:20:29 GMT -5
If there were no football, would the school's enrollment go down or would they have admitted 100 other students to fill the open capacity? Why you think they added Men's and Women's Hockey in the last two years? They also added Women's and Men's Rugby as varsity programs. The reason is they are struggling to get kids to go to Anna Maria and they are using athletics to recruit students. Absolutely and it has helped enrollment and fill seats. The math assumes that zero of the seats taken by the football team would have been filled. Also there is some marginal cost adding ten percent to the student population. Those football players are paying for a meal plan. That's part of the two million. The revenue of a meal plan isn't all profit. I do not deny that football has been good for Anna Maria, I just think it takes some pretty fancy accounting to say it's turning a 2 million dollar profit
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Post by sader1998 on Jul 11, 2020 15:53:17 GMT -5
Nichols has the most modern campus in the group with nice buildings so they are not hurting for money at all.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jul 12, 2020 22:39:06 GMT -5
I don't think HC has stated a hard figure that corresponds to Dartmouth's $150 million. But I'm going to sit down before opening any emails from Holy Cross in the near future. I wonder if the demographics of the athletes on these teams were problematic? Maybe not "problematic" but a sport like track & field tends to be composed of a higher % of minority and lower income students, making it much more difficult to cut. This is a reason why the track team at Brown was re-instated after initially getting axed. Another reason: most athletes who participate in sports like golf, rowing and sailing come from wealthier backgrounds. These students, their families and well-heeled alum much more likely to be able to financially support a club team that continues to be able to compete nationally without receiving direct funding from the athletic dept. Title IX-exempt club sports CAN compete in NCAA championships. The Men's Rowing team at Holy Cross is/was an example of this. Student athletes receive no aid and pay "dues" to help cover team expenses, which are primarily bolstered by alumni donations to the program. On a broader scale, I see a national trend coming into play where most non-revenue men's sports get cut across the board. As many women's teams are necessary to balance out scholarship funding for the revenue men's sports will continue to be fully funded as well. In many cases, as I've described above, these non-revenue sports teams can still exist and compete nationally as club sports. The main differences will be the lack of scholarship opportunities for athletes in these sports and these individuals will no longer get admissions boosts for being a "recruited athlete". Want to golf at Dartmouth or play water polo at Stanford? Great, get into the school first and then try out for the team.
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 12, 2020 22:59:10 GMT -5
I wonder if the demographics of the athletes on these teams were problematic? Maybe not "problematic" but a sport like track & field tends to be composed of a higher % of minority and lower income students, making it much more difficult to cut. This is a reason why the track team at Brown was re-instated after initially getting axed. Another reason: most athletes who participate in sports like golf, rowing and sailing come from wealthier backgrounds. These students, their families and well-heeled alum much more likely to be able to financially support a club team that continues to be able to compete nationally without receiving direct funding from the athletic dept. Title IX-exempt club sports CAN compete in NCAA championships. The Men's Rowing team at Holy Cross is/was an example of this. Student athletes receive no aid and pay "dues" to help cover team expenses, which are primarily bolstered by alumni donations to the program. On a broader scale, I see a national trend coming into play where most non-revenue men's sports get cut across the board. As many women's teams are necessary to balance out scholarship funding for the revenue men's sports will continue to be fully funded as well. In many cases, as I've described above, these non-revenue sports teams can still exist and compete nationally as club sports. The main differences will be the lack of scholarship opportunities for athletes in these sports and these individuals will no longer get admissions boosts for being a "recruited athlete". Want to golf at Dartmouth or play water polo at Stanford? Great, get into the school first and then try out for the team. Fascinating. That post doubled, at least, my knowledge of club sports so I appreciate it.
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Post by princetoncrusader on Jul 19, 2020 16:02:37 GMT -5
Article in the July 19 edition of the online WSJ entitled: "With Budgets Under Pressure, Colleges Cut Country-Club Staples Like Golf and Tennis" Subtitle reads, "Sports lose varsity status in wake of Covid-19 cash crunch; schools rethink optics of costly, overwhelmingly white teams"
Dartmouth's swimming and diving teams have gathered more than 29,000 signatures on a petition asking the school to reconsider the program's elimination. Sounds like the administration won't budge.
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