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Post by rgs318 on Jul 13, 2020 17:51:20 GMT -5
That sounds like a great idea Crusis#1. Even a few weeks in North Dakota was a real eye opener. Things that well meaning outsiders complain about (the word "chief" for example) are often not important to the Lakota. They did not have a "chief" so that word is not upsetting. They were run by policies set by the women. They (the elder women) picked a man to deal with the whites since we seemed to them to be unable to understand their culture (and certainly the role of women). He (the spokesman we called "chief") could only state what the women had decided was to be said or done.
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Post by Xmassader on Jul 13, 2020 23:18:11 GMT -5
nycrusader 2010. You might want to Google a 2014 article entitled “The Cleveland Indians, Louis Sockalexis and the Name” written by Joe Posnanski. Suffice it to say that there is a connection between the team name and the play of Sockalexis, a former Crusader, in the 1897 season when the Cleveland club was called the Spiders.
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Post by alum on Jul 14, 2020 7:00:35 GMT -5
Every good business responds to customers' wishes and other companies pay Snyder money to advertise. That makes them customers of his business. This is no different than a restaurant changing its menu to meet customer demand. Nothing to see here. Move along.
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Post by timholycross on Jul 14, 2020 7:47:12 GMT -5
Fighting over mascot names representing First Nation People is a diversion. If we truly want to honor their heritage, then we all should be “Fighting” to get the U. S. Government to honor treaty obligations, and to provide decent medical care and running water on tribal lands. Personally, I wish H C would have a sustained effort to seek out talented Native American students and provide an opportunity for an education. The education certainly would be bilateral, as many HC students have lived in a bubble, and truly do not have exposure to First Nation culture except the make believe fiction from movies. There aren't even any movies any more w/Indians...the western genre in general is becoming extinct. |
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Post by rgs318 on Jul 14, 2020 9:11:23 GMT -5
Writing out "Indians" from Hollywood westerns meant many fewer jobs for Italian-American actors. After all, it was not that long ago that there were no Native-Americans in those films.Last of the Mohicans hired only Native-American actors to play the parts and it was one of the first to do so (IIRC). Was Jay Silverheels the first regular Native-American actor on a Western series (Tonto in the Lone Ranger)?l
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Post by deep Purple on Jul 14, 2020 9:30:44 GMT -5
I'm surprised the name lasted as long as it did. It probably should have been changed 8 or 9 decades ago.
I'm curious though, let's say hypothetically that Snyder kept the name "Redskins" but changed the logo to a cartoonish guy from the south whose neck happened to be red.
Would anyone be offended?
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Post by Tom on Jul 14, 2020 9:32:21 GMT -5
Its time. Its been time. There are plenty of solid nicknames they could use: Generals, Senators, Pigskins. If they went with Pigskins, they could still be referred to as the 'Skins. Cleveland Indians -- youre on deck. I totally get the concept of dumping the name Redskins and the logic I still like how the Blackhawks (which is a very different situation) handled their name and the high road taken with the announcement they had no intentions on changing On a Cleveland note which has been alluded to in this thread, the Indians' logo is no longer the Chief Wahoo cartoon. It is a kind of blockish red letter C |
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Post by Tom on Jul 14, 2020 9:33:58 GMT -5
I'm surprised the name lasted as long as it did. It probably should have been changed 8 or 9 decades ago. I'm curious though, let's say hypothetically that Snyder kept the name "Redskins" but changed the logo to a cartoonish guy from the south whose neck happened to be red. Would anyone be offended? Absolutely |
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Post by deep Purple on Jul 14, 2020 9:42:09 GMT -5
I'm surprised the name lasted as long as it did. It probably should have been changed 8 or 9 decades ago. I'm curious though, let's say hypothetically that Snyder kept the name "Redskins" but changed the logo to a cartoonish guy from the south whose neck happened to be red. Would anyone be offended? Absolutely You believe people would be calling for boycotts? |
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jul 14, 2020 9:50:01 GMT -5
I'm surprised the name lasted as long as it did. It probably should have been changed 8 or 9 decades ago. I'm curious though, let's say hypothetically that Snyder kept the name "Redskins" but changed the logo to a cartoonish guy from the south whose neck happened to be red. Would anyone be offended? Teams started changing generic "Indians" nicknames I believe in the 1970's and 1980's. Dartmouth, Stanford and William & Mary all went by this moniker dating back to early in their history. The first calls I remember to change the Redskins nickname came in the late 1990's and early 2000's. It's funny -- I actually specifically remember it being brought up back then on sports radio that turning the mascot into an Aggie redneck type from the South would be an OK solution if the franchise were to keep the name Redskins. Probably wouldn't fly in 2020 though. There are creative ways out there to get around changing school names and team names, but highly unlikely that "the masses" would approve. Example: Washington & Lee is in the midst of considering a name change because of the homage to Robert E. Lee. Why not find an accomplished alum named Lee and say that the school is now named for him? In the meantime, take down any statues, portraits or on-campus tributes of any kind that honor the confederate leader. |
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jul 14, 2020 9:53:53 GMT -5
You believe people would be calling for boycotts? About as many people as those calling for boycotts of ND Fighting Irish gear, if I were to guess. |
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jul 14, 2020 9:58:50 GMT -5
Every good business responds to customers' wishes and other companies pay Snyder money to advertise. That makes them customers of his business. This is no different than a restaurant changing its menu to meet customer demand. Nothing to see here. Move along. Let's take the restaurant metaphor one step further to see if that helps us understand what the real dynamics are in some of these situations. The restaurant is called Agostino's and serves authentic Italian food. It's well known for its veal dishes: with the vitello saltimbocca being particularly popular. The restaurant thrives for years and wins many awards. Then one day Mr Agostino looks out the front door and sees a protest forming. A group of activists is promoting a boycott of the restaurant because they believe that veal should be banned. The activists say the calves are separated from their mothers at too young an age, are raised in cruel conditions, etc, etc. The local newspaper picks up on this as do the TV stations and all of them run features on the protest, The protests build day after day. Mr Agostino looks at the crowd and does not recognize any of the protesters as his patrons. Business drops off because the restaurant's regular patrons don't like being threatened by the protesters as they arrive for dinner. Ultimately Mr Agostino has to bend to the will of the adamant protesters in order to save his business: he deletes veal from the menu and the activist mob moves on to its next initiative. In this case a small group of very vocal activists gets its way even though (A) it was in the extreme minority in objecting to the serving of veal and (B) few if any of the protesters With this example I am not referring to the Redskins issue or any particular protest, but I believe it would hold true for some of the issues we see playing out in our society. A vocal minority is able to impose its will on a complacent majority. |
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Post by rgs318 on Jul 14, 2020 10:07:18 GMT -5
Well, the Pascack Valley (Cowboys and Indians) name change is moving in that direction. The board of ed voted to change the names (even though the majority of students, alums and residents a need them kept). Those who wanted no change even threatened the mayor and board members (who had to get police protection on their homes for a time). Discussion of the issue has been deleted from facebook and other social media sites by the board. No new nicknames have yet been chosen. The community remains divided and emotions are running high.
(PS: I stopped eating veal - once a personal favorite - some years back for the reasons you cited KY. I have not protested and don't make a scene if others, my wife included, enjoy veal at a meal we are sharing with them in a restaurant. I don't say anything about veal, but since Eileen makes a point of telling folks, I have no need to say anything. It works for me.)
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Post by Tom on Jul 14, 2020 10:57:20 GMT -5
You believe people would be calling for boycotts? Different people have different definitions. Although I don't recall Jeff Foxworthy going this particular route, there are lots of people who roll prejudice into the uneducated stereotype of a redneck. I don't know if they're be actual boycotts, but there would be a big uproar about the racist nature of the imagry. Someone would be offended and a lot more someones than boycott the Fighting Irish |
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Post by alum on Jul 14, 2020 11:22:23 GMT -5
Every good business responds to customers' wishes and other companies pay Snyder money to advertise. That makes them customers of his business. This is no different than a restaurant changing its menu to meet customer demand. Nothing to see here. Move along. Let's take the restaurant metaphor one step further to see if that helps us understand what the real dynamics are in some of these situations. The restaurant is called Agostino's and serves authentic Italian food. It's well known for its veal dishes: with the vitello saltimbocca being particularly popular. The restaurant thrives for years and wins many awards. Then one day Mr Agostino looks out the front door and sees a protest forming. A group of activists is promoting a boycott of the restaurant because they believe that veal should be banned. The activists say the calves are separated from their mothers at too young an age, are raised in cruel conditions, etc, etc. The local newspaper picks up on this as do the TV stations and all of them run features on the protest, The protests build day after day. Mr Agostino looks at the crowd and does not recognize any of the protesters as his patrons. Business drops off because the restaurant's regular patrons don't like being threatened by the protesters as they arrive for dinner. Ultimately Mr Agostino has to bend to the will of the adamant protesters in order to save his business: he deletes veal from the menu and the activist mob moves on to its next initiative. In this case a small group of very vocal activists gets its way even though (A) it was in the extreme minority in objecting to the serving of veal and (B) few if any of the protesters With this example I am not referring to the Redskins issue or any particular protest, but I believe it would hold true for some of the issues we see playing out in our society. A vocal minority is able to impose its will on a complacent majority. I think that you make a fair point. I don't like that Mr. Agostino's customers feel threatened but I think educational picketing has a value. Somebody gave my wife six free tickets to the Ringling Brothers Circus a million years ago. She took all five of the kids (probably 6 to 15 at the time) and I stayed home. There were picketers protesting the treatment of elephants. My youngest saw the signs, heard what they were saying and took a pamphlet. She was distressed. The woman from the PETA type group told her not to cry but to go and enjoy the show and to make it the last time she went to a circus with animals. We were never circus goers anyway so it really didn't matter but I thought that this was a classy way of making a point. So, I think that the protesters outside Mr. Agostino's could just urge people to enjoy pasta with vegan "meatballs" and call it a night. That said, if Mr. Agostino is a racist jerk (and I am sure he is not) a different set of protesters ought to loudly challenge every customer to not go in. We all probably weight the importance of our causes differently-- a point I sometimes have to debate with that six year old who will be a senior in college in September. |
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jul 14, 2020 11:40:18 GMT -5
Let's take the restaurant metaphor one step further to see if that helps us understand what the real dynamics are in some of these situations. The restaurant is called Agostino's and serves authentic Italian food. It's well known for its veal dishes: with the vitello saltimbocca being particularly popular. The restaurant thrives for years and wins many awards. Then one day Mr Agostino looks out the front door and sees a protest forming. A group of activists is promoting a boycott of the restaurant because they believe that veal should be banned. The activists say the calves are separated from their mothers at too young an age, are raised in cruel conditions, etc, etc. The local newspaper picks up on this as do the TV stations and all of them run features on the protest, The protests build day after day. Mr Agostino looks at the crowd and does not recognize any of the protesters as his patrons. Business drops off because the restaurant's regular patrons don't like being threatened by the protesters as they arrive for dinner. Ultimately Mr Agostino has to bend to the will of the adamant protesters in order to save his business: he deletes veal from the menu and the activist mob moves on to its next initiative. In this case a small group of very vocal activists gets its way even though (A) it was in the extreme minority in objecting to the serving of veal and (B) few if any of the protesters With this example I am not referring to the Redskins issue or any particular protest, but I believe it would hold true for some of the issues we see playing out in our society. A vocal minority is able to impose its will on a complacent majority. The woman from the PETA type group told her not to cry but to go and enjoy the show and to make it the last time she went to a circus with animals. We were never circus goers anyway so it really didn't matter but I thought that this was a classy way of making a point. An adult telling my six-year old daughter that this should be the last time she goes to a circus and the handing her a piece of literature is out of bounds, in my mind. Indoctrinating a child with the beliefs of PETA is the role of a parent, not an activist. |
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Post by alum on Jul 14, 2020 11:53:06 GMT -5
The woman from the PETA type group told her not to cry but to go and enjoy the show and to make it the last time she went to a circus with animals. We were never circus goers anyway so it really didn't matter but I thought that this was a classy way of making a point. An adult telling my six-year old daughter that this should be the last time she goes to a circus and the handing her a piece of literature is out of bounds, in my mind. Indoctrinating a child with the beliefs of PETA is the role of a parent, not an activist. Well, my wife was standing next to her when it happened. She was not in any danger. My kids were raised to respect those exercising their First Amendment rights (it was on a public sidewalk,) to ask questions and to express their own opinions. While it can be exhausting, I am incredibly proud of that then six year old who has been challenging everything everyone in our home has said for the past fifteen years. If you grew up in a sheltered home where that debate was not encouraged, I am sorry to hear that. |
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Post by HC92 on Jul 14, 2020 11:55:51 GMT -5
Let's take the restaurant metaphor one step further to see if that helps us understand what the real dynamics are in some of these situations. The restaurant is called Agostino's and serves authentic Italian food. It's well known for its veal dishes: with the vitello saltimbocca being particularly popular. The restaurant thrives for years and wins many awards. Then one day Mr Agostino looks out the front door and sees a protest forming. A group of activists is promoting a boycott of the restaurant because they believe that veal should be banned. The activists say the calves are separated from their mothers at too young an age, are raised in cruel conditions, etc, etc. The local newspaper picks up on this as do the TV stations and all of them run features on the protest, The protests build day after day. Mr Agostino looks at the crowd and does not recognize any of the protesters as his patrons. Business drops off because the restaurant's regular patrons don't like being threatened by the protesters as they arrive for dinner. Ultimately Mr Agostino has to bend to the will of the adamant protesters in order to save his business: he deletes veal from the menu and the activist mob moves on to its next initiative. In this case a small group of very vocal activists gets its way even though (A) it was in the extreme minority in objecting to the serving of veal and (B) few if any of the protesters With this example I am not referring to the Redskins issue or any particular protest, but I believe it would hold true for some of the issues we see playing out in our society. A vocal minority is able to impose its will on a complacent majority. I think that you make a fair point. I don't like that Mr. Agostino's customers feel threatened but I think educational picketing has a value. Somebody gave my wife six free tickets to the Ringling Brothers Circus a million years ago. She took all five of the kids (probably 6 to 15 at the time) and I stayed home. There were picketers protesting the treatment of elephants. My youngest saw the signs, heard what they were saying and took a pamphlet. She was distressed. The woman from the PETA type group told her not to cry but to go and enjoy the show and to make it the last time she went to a circus with animals. We were never circus goers anyway so it really didn't matter but I thought that this was a classy way of making a point. So, I think that the protesters outside Mr. Agostino's could just urge people to enjoy pasta with vegan "meatballs" and call it a night. That said, if Mr. Agostino is a racist jerk (and I am sure he is not) a different set of protesters ought to loudly challenge every customer to not go in. We all probably weight the importance of our causes differently-- a point I sometimes have to debate with that six year old who will be a senior in college in September. The real problem today is that if Agostino is overheard telling someone all lives matter, he will be labeled a racist jerk and the mob won’t stop its efforts to ruin him when he stops serving a particular dish. |
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Post by Tom on Jul 14, 2020 12:48:30 GMT -5
The real problem today is that if Agostino is overheard telling someone all lives matter, he will be labeled a racist jerk and the mob won’t stop its efforts to ruin him when he stops serving a particular dish. Last week in a town outside of Boston there was a flashing road sign that effectively said drive slowly and carefully, but ended with the phrase "the safety of all lives matter". There must have been some complaints because the mayor ordered the sign removed and issued an apology.. Channel 5 interviewed one driver that said she felt triggered by the sign |
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jul 14, 2020 13:01:00 GMT -5
An adult telling my six-year old daughter that this should be the last time she goes to a circus and the handing her a piece of literature is out of bounds, in my mind. Indoctrinating a child with the beliefs of PETA is the role of a parent, not an activist. Well, my wife was standing next to her when it happened. She was not in any danger. My kids were raised to respect those exercising their First Amendment rights (it was on a public sidewalk,) to ask questions and to express their own opinions. While it can be exhausting, I am incredibly proud of that then six year old who has been challenging everything everyone in our home has said for the past fifteen years. If you grew up in a sheltered home where that debate was not encouraged, I am sorry to hear that. What? How did we get from an adult activist approaching a six-year old with a PETA pamphlet to growing up in a sheltered home? My commentary is more on the activist than your daughter. |
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Jul 15, 2020 4:26:34 GMT -5
The real problem today is that if Agostino is overheard telling someone all lives matter, he will be labeled a racist jerk and the mob won’t stop its efforts to ruin him when he stops serving a particular dish. Last week in a town outside of Boston there was a flashing road sign that effectively said drive slowly and carefully, but ended with the phrase "the safety of all lives matter". There must have been some complaints because the mayor ordered the sign removed and issued an apology.. Channel 5 interviewed one driver that said she felt triggered by the sign I rarely post on stuff outside of sports, but imho that's just sad and pathetic. Aren't there things higher up the priority ladder for that mayor? |
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Jul 15, 2020 4:36:07 GMT -5
And I was going to type "higher up the totem pole" but changed my mind. Honestly.
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Post by timholycross on Jul 15, 2020 7:07:59 GMT -5
The only thing I could complain about if I were a fan of that team is that Ron Rivera's spending any time on the issue.
There are plenty of other people in the employ of Mr. Snyder to do that, including Mr. Snyder himself.
It's right before training camp. Rivera should be focused on coaching, it's enough of a job. And, if Rivera thinks it's important, then Jerry Glanville's "NFL stands for Not For Long" is an appropriate monicker for him.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jul 15, 2020 8:42:49 GMT -5
Every good business responds to customers' wishes and other companies pay Snyder money to advertise. That makes them customers of his business. This is no different than a restaurant changing its menu to meet customer demand. Nothing to see here. Move along. Let's take the restaurant metaphor one step further to see if that helps us understand what the real dynamics are in some of these situations. The restaurant is called Agostino's and serves authentic Italian food. It's well known for its veal dishes: with the vitello saltimbocca being particularly popular. The restaurant thrives for years and wins many awards. Then one day Mr Agostino looks out the front door and sees a protest forming. A group of activists is promoting a boycott of the restaurant because they believe that veal should be banned. The activists say the calves are separated from their mothers at too young an age, are raised in cruel conditions, etc, etc. The local newspaper picks up on this as do the TV stations and all of them run features on the protest, The protests build day after day. Mr Agostino looks at the crowd and does not recognize any of the protesters as his patrons. Business drops off because the restaurant's regular patrons don't like being threatened by the protesters as they arrive for dinner. Ultimately Mr Agostino has to bend to the will of the adamant protesters in order to save his business: he deletes veal from the menu and the activist mob moves on to its next initiative. In this case a small group of very vocal activists gets its way even though (A) it was in the extreme minority in objecting to the serving of veal and (B) few if any of the protesters With this example I am not referring to the Redskins issue or any particular protest, but I believe it would hold true for some of the issues we see playing out in our society. A vocal minority is able to impose its will on a complacent majority. Not a bad example. I would counter with a couple of things:
A) If the protestors are that obnoxious or off-base in what they are objecting to, then I can't imagine that the restaurant owner of his loyal patrons would be so compelled to give in so easily. After all, I walk the streets of Park Avenue for work (well, at least I used to) and see people giving out pamphlets to stop funding wall street trading/profiting of gun/arms/defense companies. Am I going to stop funding my 401k?
B) The protestors have every right to protest against veal, as much as I have every right to eat it. Veal happens to be one of my favorites, and once you brought the saltimbocca into the mix, I had to comment  The most sensible approach is meant to win in the open forum. From my perspective, melting some mozzarella and putting some prosciutto on top is the superior outcome.
C) The treatment of animals for food is not widely associated with the treatment of human beings for civil rights. Bad cops shooting minorities or bad minorities shooting children in NYC last weekend needs to be handled a little differently than me eating a cow.
I will agree with you that I am largely against cancel culture and virtue signaling. But I don't think that the Redskins issue was one of straw man issues and distant hypotheticals. It's pretty clearly racist, if not simply antiquated and archaic.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jul 15, 2020 9:31:48 GMT -5
Please note that I stated that "With this example I am not referring to the Redskins issue or any particular protest"
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The most sensible approach is meant to win in the open forum. From my perspective, melting some mozzarella and putting some prosciutto on top is the superior outcome.