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Post by hchoops on Aug 23, 2020 10:57:00 GMT -5
Sorry Behind a paywall
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Post by Crucis#1 on Aug 23, 2020 12:03:41 GMT -5
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Post by rgs318 on Aug 23, 2020 12:14:54 GMT -5
I am glad HC hired MB and feel he is a solid choice as program leader. However, numbers of minority hires alone do not prove actual racism. What if the people hired were the best candidates...hired with no regard to color? If people are hired because of the color of their skin rather than the content of their character and the level of their individual abilities isn't that the very sort of racist action decried by Rev.Dr.MLK? The article brings an important subject to light, but we need to be careful not to jump to conclusions.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Aug 23, 2020 16:14:18 GMT -5
There are 23 D1 schools in New England. The story states "region", likely speaking to the 15 in whatever the Globe considers their subscription area.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Aug 23, 2020 16:55:07 GMT -5
Merit based hiring, please and thank you.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Aug 23, 2020 17:11:09 GMT -5
I am glad HC hired MB and feel is is a solid choice as program leader. However, numbers of minority hires alone do not prove actual racism. What if the people hired were the best candidates...hired with no regard to color? If people are hired because of the color of their skin rather than the content of their character and the level of their individual abilities isn't that the very sort of racist action decried by Rev.Dr.MLK? The article brings an important subject to light, but we need to be careful not to jump to conclusions. Actually, you've hit on the problem. Those who hire in college athletic offices. corporate board rooms, the NBA, the NFL, etc. etc. always say "we just hired the best person", and over and over again the "best person" just happens to be white. Meanwhile, many qualified black candidates never get a chance. This is the definition of systemic racism, a system of hiring designed to exclude black candidates. Many black people decry the cherry picking by white people of select MLK quotes (the one you quoted is Ex. A) to deny there is systemic racism. Many white people think that if they treat the black people they deal with fairly and appropriately that they have not contributed to racism. Many black people would say that white people who are not overtly racist but who benefit from or do nothing to oppose and change the structures on almost every level of society that deny black people equal opportunity are, if not racists, at least white supremacists. I'm not pointing a finger at you. This is something that all white people, myself included, must comes to terms with. I'm proud that HC hired MB.
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Post by rgs318 on Aug 23, 2020 18:31:34 GMT -5
I am glad HC hired MB and feel is is a solid choice as program leader. However, numbers of minority hires alone do not prove actual racism. What if the people hired were the best candidates...hired with no regard to color? If people are hired because of the color of their skin rather than the content of their character and the level of their individual abilities isn't that the very sort of racist action decried by Rev.Dr.MLK? The article brings an important subject to light, but we need to be careful not to jump to conclusions. I would say you also hit on the problem. You've hit on the problem. Those who hire in college athletic offices. corporate board rooms, the NBA, the NFL, etc. etc. always say "we just hired the best person", and over and over again the "best person" just happens to be white. You seem to believe that is the case. Believing that the people who did the hiring because of the skin color of the person hired - without knowing the details of the choice - seem a bit biased. Meanwhile, many qualified black candidates never get a chance. Even those who were interviewed and thus had a chance? This is the definition of systemic racism, a system of hiring designed to exclude black candidates. Many black people decry the cherry picking by white people of select MLK quotes (the one you quoted is Ex. A) to deny there is systemic racism. I was not doing that and IMHO to say I was biased shows bias on your part. I have taught about MLK (and Gandhi) for many years and may know more of their quotes than you. I also see the reality of systemic racism but not in every action. Many ( I prefer "some") white people ( only white?) think that if they treat the black people they deal with fairly and appropriately that they have not contributed to racism. Many black people would say that white people who are not overtly racist but who benefit from or do nothing to oppose and change the structures on almost every level of society that deny black people equal opportunity are, if not racists, at least white supremacists. (What on earth are you using to make that point?) I'm not pointing a finger at you. This is something that all white people, myself included, must comes to terms with. I'm proud that HC hired MB. [Interesting. So if person gets a job for which he/she is qualified and is white, that is an example of systemic racism. Is that really your opinion? Is it some sort of victory if a person of color gets a position because of skin color (over others who may be more qualified for the position)? That sort of "cherry picking" comments by others is a road block to overcoming systemic racism IMO.
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Post by timholycross on Aug 23, 2020 22:44:18 GMT -5
There are 23 D1 schools in New England. The story states "region", likely speaking to the 15 in whatever the Globe considers their subscription area. 7 schools in CT, 1 in VT and Maine. I wouldn't consider any of them in the Globe subscription area. Nor would I consider Dartmouth in it either.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Aug 24, 2020 8:08:26 GMT -5
I am glad HC hired MB and feel is is a solid choice as program leader. However, numbers of minority hires alone do not prove actual racism. What if the people hired were the best candidates...hired with no regard to color? If people are hired because of the color of their skin rather than the content of their character and the level of their individual abilities isn't that the very sort of racist action decried by Rev.Dr.MLK? The article brings an important subject to light, but we need to be careful not to jump to conclusions. Actually, you've hit on the problem. Those who hire in college athletic offices. corporate board rooms, the NBA, the NFL, etc. etc. always say "we just hired the best person", and over and over again the "best person" just happens to be white. Meanwhile, many qualified black candidates never get a chance. This is the definition of systemic racism, a system of hiring designed to exclude black candidates. Many black people decry the cherry picking by white people of select MLK quotes (the one you quoted is Ex. A) to deny there is systemic racism. Many white people think that if they treat the black people they deal with fairly and appropriately that they have not contributed to racism. Many black people would say that white people who are not overtly racist but who benefit from or do nothing to oppose and change the structures on almost every level of society that deny black people equal opportunity are, if not racists, at least white supremacists. I'm not pointing a finger at you. This is something that all white people, myself included, must comes to terms with. I'm proud that HC hired MB. I've not been given the chance to be the GM of the Yankees, but I think I'd do a damn fine job. I can evaluate talent, manage people and budgets, and have a track record of improving personal and professional performance over a decade. Are the Yankees bigoted against my (race, religion, ethnicity, background)? What if it's not outright racism, but I didn't get the "opportunity?" You said not offering the opportunity can be just as bad. So where do we draw the line between reasonable assessment of background/candidacy and experience versus bias? Using your logic, if I wasn't afforded the opportunity to become President of the US, it's because of some inherent or systematic oppression, rather than logical assumptions on my experience and talents (that, and I'm one crazy SOB).
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Post by rf1 on Aug 24, 2020 8:19:47 GMT -5
Can't speak on all the other New England schools but will offer some context on the University of Rhode Island. URI currently has a white AD but previously had a black AD (McKinley Boston) some 30 years ago. URI's highest profile coach, Men's Basketball head David Cox, is black. He is the third black man to hold the position with the first, Claude English, having taken the reins all the way back in 1980. URI has also had black head coaches in the past lead its football and women's basketball programs.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Aug 24, 2020 9:28:32 GMT -5
I don't care at all about AD MB's ethnicity, and I only care from a curiosity standpoint about his personal background (hope he's a good person, etc.). I care most if he can build a winning program and support our athletes, coaches, and alma mater. I don't care what the head coach looks like. I don't care what the players look like. I do. Not. Care. That's why I'm paying attention to sports and not the riots in the streets, because sports (or to a certain extent, business) is measurable success. Win? Make money? Then what pigment your skin has or the language you speak or the place on a map (a piece of paper) where your parents were born doesn't matter.
If a Klingon came down on a Bird of Prey warship and wanted to take over the program, again, I wouldn't discriminate. Would the basketball team win? Would the football team win? Then I'm a supporter.
Sports is the ultimate egalitarian effort.
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Post by bfoley82 on Aug 24, 2020 12:38:06 GMT -5
The main problem is Minorities are not given as many opportunities to break into athletic admin field like others. So if you aren't giving the chance, 10-15 years ago you aren't going to be able to be an AD.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Aug 24, 2020 13:09:19 GMT -5
The main problem is Minorities are not given as many opportunities to break into athletic admin field like others. So if you aren't giving the chance, 10-15 years ago you aren't going to be able to be an AD. Who gave me a chance? Who gave you a chance? Nobody should be "given" anything. What is earned, is earned. I have to believe HC gave AD MB the job because he was the best candidate for the position and what they wanted to achieve together. If it was merely handed to AD MB out of obligation, then HC shortchanged the school, and the candidate too.
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Post by bfoley82 on Aug 24, 2020 13:59:54 GMT -5
The main problem is Minorities are not given as many opportunities to break into athletic admin field like others. So if you aren't giving the chance, 10-15 years ago you aren't going to be able to be an AD. Who gave me a chance? Who gave you a chance? Nobody should be "given" anything. What is earned, is earned. I have to believe HC gave AD MB the job because he was the best candidate for the position and what they wanted to achieve together. If it was merely handed to AD MB out of obligation, then HC shortchanged the school, and the candidate too. Providence has zero African Americans (they might have a Hispanic but not sure) in Athletic Administration and UConn has one.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Aug 24, 2020 14:17:46 GMT -5
The main problem is Minorities are not given as many opportunities to break into athletic admin field like others. So if you aren't giving the chance, 10-15 years ago you aren't going to be able to be an AD. Who gave me a chance? Who gave you a chance? Nobody should be "given" anything. What is earned, is earned. I have to believe HC gave AD MB the job because he was the best candidate for the position and what they wanted to achieve together. If it was merely handed to AD MB out of obligation, then HC shortchanged the school, and the candidate too. I can't answer these questions because I know nothing about you, but black people, historically (for 400 years) have not been given what they've earned. If you're white you're given a chance to shop without being followed, to be stopped for speeding without being beaten, if you're charged with a crime to get a jury that might follow the law, if you go to jail to get a sentence that's proportionate to your crime, to get a mortgage without being redlined, to become a CEO, or to get a job as a college AD. For black people the history of this country is what is earned is usually denied. What everyone should be given is equal opportunity.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Aug 24, 2020 15:54:57 GMT -5
Who gave me a chance? Who gave you a chance? Nobody should be "given" anything. What is earned, is earned. I have to believe HC gave AD MB the job because he was the best candidate for the position and what they wanted to achieve together. If it was merely handed to AD MB out of obligation, then HC shortchanged the school, and the candidate too. I can't answer these questions because I know nothing about you, but black people, historically (for 400 years) have not been given what they've earned. If you're white you're given a chance to shop without being followed, to be stopped for speeding without being beaten, if you're charged with a crime to get a jury that might follow the law, if you go to jail to get a sentence that's proportionate to your crime, to get a mortgage without being redlined, to become a CEO, or to get a job as a college AD. For black people the history of this country is what is earned is usually denied. What everyone should be given is equal opportunity. Makes sense, and obviously, occurred on a larger scale and across a larger historical context in the US. Only to prove my point a bit, you can argue that at least for certain periods of time, Irish, Italians, Jews, Muslims, the disabled, mentally handicapped, and probably many more groups have faced discrimination. I would argue that probably many still do. But I'm not sure that you can "catch them up." All you can do is focus on the goal and ignore that meaningless context such as skin color, and remove it from the equation however possible. Something like affirmative action, to me, keeps it at the forefront and almost tokenizes it for the sake of meeting an arbitrary requirement, missing the stated objective.
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Post by rgs318 on Aug 24, 2020 16:09:04 GMT -5
My parolees went though much of this. I was once told that if one of them and I were arrested for the same charge, within 24 hours he would be locked up and facing time behind bars, while I would probably be in pre-trial intervention with a chance at a clean slate. They all believed that. Working with them taught me a lot.
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 24, 2020 16:12:22 GMT -5
MB was actually more qualified than either of the two prior ADs in the sense of progressive advancement in regional quality athletic departments HC aspires to move closer to in overall D-1 performance. He is a good communicator and a positive face of the department. I also am proud HC hired him.
But what happens if the MBB and WBB programs Don't crack .500 for the next four years under the coaches he hired, the successful head FB coach he inherited moves on and the Luth dividend for minor sports is limited in improving actual winning percentages? None of which I want to happen but all of which is possible.
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Post by rgs318 on Aug 24, 2020 18:32:21 GMT -5
Any chance we could try to link this to reality?
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Aug 24, 2020 20:16:54 GMT -5
Who gave me a chance? Who gave you a chance? Nobody should be "given" anything. What is earned, is earned. I have to believe HC gave AD MB the job because he was the best candidate for the position and what they wanted to achieve together. If it was merely handed to AD MB out of obligation, then HC shortchanged the school, and the candidate too. I can't answer these questions because I know nothing about you, but black people, historically (for 400 years) have not been given what they've earned. If you're white you're given a chance to shop without being followed, to be stopped for speeding without being beaten, if you're charged with a crime to get a jury that might follow the law, if you go to jail to get a sentence that's proportionate to your crime, to get a mortgage without being redlined, to become a CEO, or to get a job as a college AD. For black people the history of this country is what is earned is usually denied. What everyone should be given is equal opportunity. The white kid born in Appalachia to drug addict parents living in a trailer park would love to trade places with the Black kid from Fairfield county. It’s actually why hearing the term “white privilege” makes me uncomfortable. In my mind, it’s more about financial privilege or geographical privilege. Is it not also inherently racist to use the term “white privilege”? By saying that, one is stating that, due to the color of their skin, he or she is more privileged than one who does not look like them. What if a Black person has worked their butt of to place themselves in a great position financially, geographically, academically, etc.? Might they be offended if a White person were to say they are more privileged?
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Post by bfoley82 on Aug 24, 2020 20:46:19 GMT -5
MB was actually more qualified than either of the two prior ADs in the sense of progressive advancement in regional quality athletic departments HC aspires to move closer to in overall D-1 performance. He is a good communicator and a positive face of the department. I also am proud HC hired him. But what happens if the MBB and WBB programs Don't crack .500 for the next four years under the coaches he hired, the successful head FB coach he inherited moves on and the Luth dividend for minor sports is limited in improving actual winning percentages? None of which I want to happen but all of which is possible. MB was qualified for the job. BC Assistant AD Vaughn Williams was just hired at Bentley recently. He was previously the AD at D-1 Kennesaw State from 2011-2017 before returning to BC. This isn’t about MB, just about the general lack of diversity in college athletics administration.
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 24, 2020 21:22:26 GMT -5
I agree with your point that if you aren't given an opportunity for an entry level position in your twenties you can't have ten years of experience in your field in your thirties and be considered qualified to move up into leadership.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Aug 25, 2020 8:27:51 GMT -5
I agree with your point that if you aren't given an opportunity for an entry level position in your twenties you can't have ten years of experience in your field in your thirties and be considered qualified to move up into leadership. A good point but one that is not necessarily linked to race. I see my LinkedIn on fire with 22-23 year-olds of all sizes, shapes, and colors sharing posts about being asked to demonstrate 5 years of prior experience at an entry level job. It's a challenge anyone faces. You don't want to take the lesser-experienced candidate and let it bite you in the ass if they fail. It's like going for 2, going for the win, instead of kicking the FG to tie. If you lose in OT, people don't criticize you as much. If you go for 2 and miss the attempt-- even if the math say it's the right move-- then the coach gets railed.
I forget where I read it/how I came across it, but it's apparently some social phenomenon where making a wrong choice that is commonly repeated by the wider population in action or sentiment and then failing is readily accepted, whereas making a "correct" choice that is not common and failing at it brings near universal criticism. Sort of like, the difference between genius and insanity is only degree of success.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Aug 25, 2020 8:37:27 GMT -5
Kentucky had it at the beginning of corona. Very on point. Let's say that 90% of schools cancel events/go to distance learning (1) you are among the 90%. If it turns out to be the right thing to do, you're okay. If it turns out to have been panic-driven and ill-advised you're still okay because all the other schools did the same thing (2) you are among the 10%. If it turns out that the cancellations/distance learning was the way to go, you're in deep trouble because you put your people at risk. If it turns out to be panic-driven and ill-advised you may be lcriticized for taking the chance and getting lucky (or was it being smart) Conclusion--when the pack moves you are always safe (re: public opinion) in moving with it, whether the pack is headed for safety or off a cliff
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Post by Tom on Aug 25, 2020 9:29:11 GMT -5
My parolees went though much of this. I was once told that if one of them and I were arrested for the same charge, within 24 hours he would be locked up and facing time behind bars, while I would probably be in pre-trial intervention with a chance at a clean slate. They all believed that. Working with them taught me a lot. In my opinion, money is a big part of that equation. When you get arrested, you're probably going to hire a lawyer to file those pre-trial motions. A poorer person might get an overworked public defender who can't devote the proper pre-trial time for that stuff and might even make a quick deal. Is it wrong? yes Is it fair administration of justice ? No. Do I believe it happens every day? yes ---------------------------------- The good old boys in MLB (and other pursuits) had their rolodexes 40 years ago. There were not a lot of African-American people in those rolodexes. But if you weren't in the club, you didn't get a chance. Better to give Billy Martin his 9th shot as a manager (having been fired 8 times) than go outside that short list in the rolodex. Sticking with baseball, there were a few African-Americans in the club. Managers generally walk into bad situations. Not many walk away on top, most get fired because the team stinks. Frank Robinson was doing all right, until he got hired by a horrible Oriole team. By the time he got fired from that gig, it was another 10 years before someone else gave him a look. When you break into the club, you get one chance to make a good first impression. In an industry where basically everybody gets fired, it's hard to make a good first impression when you're almost always walking into a bad situation. It's hard to get into the club. It's hard to survive your first hazing, no matter what color you happen to be. Fortunately I hope things are getting better as people are more selfish. I have a better chance of succeeding if my hires are good and if I have a better chance of succeeding by looking outside the rolodex, so be it. The internet is letting all kinds of people know about openings. People are applying for these jobs instead of the hiring people calling around looking for known names. While I want the person that is going to put the major HC sports in the win column, I would probably be a little prejudiced for a next generation Klingon over an original series Klingon for an AD. Definitely more honorable
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