|
Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 24, 2020 17:50:20 GMT -5
We didn't decide to transition to I-AA, we had to by rule. Fitton Field did not meet the stadium size requirements and attendance at Fitton did not meet the average attendance requirements. Same was true for the Ivys - at least as far as attendance was concerned - and so they became I-AA as well. There was no plausible scenario under which Holy Cross would've remained I-A. I-AA, now FCS, is the spot that HC football clearly belongs.
|
|
|
Post by rickii on Sept 25, 2020 6:41:15 GMT -5
AIR, you had to have a 30,000 seat stadium -OR- have averaged 15,000 per game ( aggregate) over the past 5 seasons. Those were the rules at the time. If these stipulations still exist, they are no longer followed. i.e. no one gets "kicked out" of FBS and to "move up" you need to be invited to a conference unless your school is named Liberty University and can claim religious discrimination....or something. I can think of a couple schools that made the move to I-A that don’t have 30,000 seat stadiums so yes that original rule option was apparently relaxed by the NCAA. Umass....guessing their move up hinged on playing a certain number of ‘home’ games at Gillette to offset McGuirk’s capacity of 17,000 or so.
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Sept 25, 2020 6:58:53 GMT -5
While my memory is foggy, as I recall almost all of our opponents were heading 1-AA (BC and sometimes- opponents Rutgers and Villanova come to mind as exceptions). That (plus the guidelines) made our move logical.
Our early (and schollie) 1-AA football (pre Patriot League) against those continuing opponents under Coach Carter was quite competitive (minus BC) and our talent level actually improved. That helped soften the blow, IMHO.
Many of those teams moved off the schedule for one reason or another and, of course, schollies departed/Pl competition began (Coach Duffner).
|
|
|
Post by hc87 on Sept 25, 2020 10:59:38 GMT -5
I think Yale was the only Ivy that met the criteria at the time (1981). Some other Ivies had the stadia but not the average attendance, Yale chose to stay Ivy rather obviously.
HC, Colgate, W&M and Richmond (Villanova had dropped football) were the 1-A's indys, in the roughly Northeast, that were relegated to 1-AA then. Different world today, but this was a "sweet spot" for these schools at the time. Hopefully we can get to that "level" again...I think we are on the path there now.
FBS level football today is probably beyond our scope as an institution. It could theoretically be done but we'd be in the netherworld that UMass, UConn and many other G5 FBS programs find themselves in today. We're much bettah off competing at a high-level at FCS, playing the occasional FBS school etc.
|
|
|
Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Sept 25, 2020 12:09:41 GMT -5
^ You have a better shot of winning Wimbeldon than you do seeing anyone at HC ever so much as mention 1A.
|
|
|
Post by hc87 on Sept 25, 2020 13:04:56 GMT -5
LOL....so you're saying there's a chance?
I'm neither advocating nor think HC will evah explore going FBS.....what I do think what we may see soon, is a rearranging of FBS/FCS in some form. From the P5 schools pulling away completely, to some now in FBS reclassifying to FCS or some other sort of combination thereof etc.
A strong FCS program is the perfect level for HC football imo.
|
|
|
Post by timholycross on Sept 25, 2020 13:49:52 GMT -5
I think Yale was the only Ivy that met the criteria at the time (1981). Some other Ivies had the stadia but not the average attendance, Yale chose to stay Ivy rather obviously. HC, Colgate, W&M and Richmond (Villanova had dropped football) were the 1-A's indys, in the roughly Northeast, that were relegated to 1-AA then. Different world today, but this was a "sweet spot" for these schools at the time. Hopefully we can get to that "level" again...I think we are on the path there now. FBS level football today is probably beyond our scope as an institution. It could theoretically be done but we'd be in the netherworld that UMass, UConn and many other G5 FBS programs find themselves in today. We're much bettah off competing at a high-level at FCS, playing the occasional FBS school etc. H, Y and both Ps could have been 1A based on their stadium size. They chose to drop down as a league.
|
|
|
Post by steve81 on Sept 25, 2020 18:40:21 GMT -5
We didn't decide to transition to I-AA, we had to by rule. Fitton Field did not meet the stadium size requirements and attendance at Fitton did not meet the average attendance requirements. Same was true for the Ivys - at least as far as attendance was concerned - and so they became I-AA as well. There was no plausible scenario under which Holy Cross would've remained I-A. I-AA, now FCS, is the spot that HC football clearly belongs. Was under the impression at the time of the split, it was not stadium size, but 20k attendance which was possible with Fitton at 23,500.
|
|
|
Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 25, 2020 18:57:12 GMT -5
There was no plausible scenario under which Holy Cross would've remained I-A. I-AA, now FCS, is the spot that HC football clearly belongs. Was under the impression at the time of the split, it was not stadium size, but 20k attendance which was possible with Fitton at 23,500. IIRC, originally there was a stadium size of 25,000?, which HC could have met with a slight expansion in seating. Record attendance at Fitton is 27,000. HC doesn't identify the game. As for the baseball field, I just learned that both Lou Gehrig and Babe Ruth played on Fitton.
|
|
|
Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 25, 2020 20:37:53 GMT -5
I think Yale was the only Ivy that met the criteria at the time (1981). Some other Ivies had the stadia but not the average attendance, Yale chose to stay Ivy rather obviously. HC, Colgate, W&M and Richmond (Villanova had dropped football) were the 1-A's indys, in the roughly Northeast, that were relegated to 1-AA then. Different world today, but this was a "sweet spot" for these schools at the time. Hopefully we can get to that "level" again...I think we are on the path there now. FBS level football today is probably beyond our scope as an institution. It could theoretically be done but we'd be in the netherworld that UMass, UConn and many other G5 FBS programs find themselves in today. We're much bettah off competing at a high-level at FCS, playing the occasional FBS school etc. H, Y and both Ps could have been 1A based on their stadium size. They chose to drop down as a league. Ivy League was actually knocked down -- wasn't a choice (not that it matters, they would've played the same schedules and not participated in post-season either way). Based on combination of stadium size & attendance requirements enforced at the time, Yale and maybe 1-2 others would've met the criteria. Holy Cross, Colgate, William & Mary, VMI, the entire MAC and a few others were knocked down at the same time -- I think 1983 was the year IIRC. The MAC, over the course of a 2-3 year period, was able to juice up attendance figures enough to get bumped back up to I-A.
|
|
|
Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 25, 2020 20:40:05 GMT -5
I think Yale was the only Ivy that met the criteria at the time (1981). Some other Ivies had the stadia but not the average attendance, Yale chose to stay Ivy rather obviously. HC, Colgate, W&M and Richmond (Villanova had dropped football) were the 1-A's indys, in the roughly Northeast, that were relegated to 1-AA then. Different world today, but this was a "sweet spot" for these schools at the time. Hopefully we can get to that "level" again...I think we are on the path there now. FBS level football today is probably beyond our scope as an institution. It could theoretically be done but we'd be in the netherworld that UMass, UConn and many other G5 FBS programs find themselves in today. We're much bettah off competing at a high-level at FCS, playing the occasional FBS school etc. All you have to do is compile a list of all the schools that have moved up from I-AA/FCS to I-A/FBS since about 1999 and you will see that Holy Cross does not in any way, shape, or form fit in with any of the other schools.
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Sept 25, 2020 20:47:03 GMT -5
Fitton could have easily been expanded to meet the stadium size requirement. IMHO, the "real" reason, which is always panned here by some, is that the Ivy League and most of our other frequent/traditional rivals were going the D-IAA route. Harvard, Dartmouth, Colgate, BU, Brown, Yale, UMass, UConn, Fordham. Only BC and Syracuse went D-IA. We stopped playing Penn State years before. We used to play Buffalo pretty regularly and believe they initially went D-IAA as well.
|
|
|
Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 25, 2020 20:57:59 GMT -5
Buffalo moved up to I-A in 1998 or 1999.
|
|
|
Post by bfoley82 on Sept 25, 2020 21:54:37 GMT -5
Fitton could have easily been expanded to meet the stadium size requirement. IMHO, the "real" reason, which is always panned here by some, is that the Ivy League and most of our other frequent/traditional rivals were going the D-IAA route. Harvard, Dartmouth, Colgate, BU, Brown, Yale, UMass, UConn, Fordham. Only BC and Syracuse went D-IA. We stopped playing Penn State years before. We used to play Buffalo pretty regularly and believe they initially went D-IAA as well. The last game against Buffalo was 1970 and played 10 times against Holy Cross from 1927-1970. s3.amazonaws.com/goholycross.com/documents/2019/7/19/19-hc-fb-fb.pdfHow has Maine not played Holy Cross since 1984?
|
|
|
Post by longsuffering on Sept 25, 2020 22:29:39 GMT -5
BC pays them more.
|
|
|
Post by rickii on Sept 26, 2020 7:02:56 GMT -5
2010 -
Reclassification occurred in 1980. Rick Carter addressed the subject prior to his 1st season in 1981.
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Sept 26, 2020 8:19:36 GMT -5
2010 - Reclassification occurred in 1980. Rick Carter addressed the subject prior to his 1st season in 1981. Yes. We played essentially the same teams under Rick Carter as we did the previous five years (with a rare exception here and there). I've noticed a few folks think that when we went 1-AA our competition lessened and our talent level went down. No. Our competition stayed the same and our talent level went up under Carter. PL/Schollie elimination was '86ish and in many ways that was the start of the decline. Legacy Carter recruits such as McGovern, Wiley, and Lockbaum and the efforts of Coach Duffner sort of obscured that a bit but in retrospect were simply delaying the inevitable effects of the reduction in competition and talent that the double move (PL/Schollie elimination) inevitably brought. IMHO.
|
|
|
Post by Tom on Sept 26, 2020 8:43:32 GMT -5
I seem to recall that part of the issue was a certain, fairly large percentage of games had to be against I-A teams. When the Ivy went I-AA, that took a big chunk of traditional opponents out of play
|
|
|
Post by Crucis#1 on Sept 26, 2020 10:24:41 GMT -5
I seem to recall that part of the issue was a certain, fairly large percentage of games had to be against I-A teams. When the Ivy went I-AA, that took a big chunk of traditional opponents out of play I disagree, for example in 1979, the Ivy schedule was 9 games. 7 games in conference and 2 OOC. Penn, the 2 OOC were Lehigh and Lafayette. www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/pennsylvania/1979-schedule.htmlHarvard, the 2 OOC were UMass and BU harvard.prestosports.com/sports/fball/1979-80/ScheduleYale, the 2 OOC were UConn and Colgate www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/yale/1979-schedule.htmlBrown, the 2 OOC were URI and HC en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Brown_Bears_football_teamDartmouth, the 2 OOC were HC and New Hampshire www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/dartmouth/1979-schedule.htmlPrinceton, the 2 OOC were Colgate and Rutgers en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Princeton_Tigers_football_teamColumbia, the 2 OOC were Lafayette and Colgate gocolumbialions.com/sports/football/schedule/1979Cornell , the 2 OOC were Colgate and Bucknell cornellbigred.com/sports/football/schedule/1979-80By the 197O’s, the Ivy schedule was very similar until they added a third game, then decided to stop the scheduling agreement with the PL. The Ivy teams had abandoned their national powerhouse schedule with the formation of the IL in the 1950’s. With the exception of UConn, UMass, Rutgers, who upgraded to 1A, and BU who are no longer playing football, the teams that the Ivy played in 1979 are teams that formed the PL and the CAA.
|
|
|
Post by Tom on Sept 26, 2020 10:51:44 GMT -5
On the other hand, in 1980 HC played 4 ivy teams. In 1981 HC played 5 ivy opponents
|
|
|
Post by Crucis#1 on Sept 26, 2020 10:58:36 GMT -5
Before the Ivy League was formed in 1954, Penn played a national schedule in 1951, with California, Wisconsin, Navy, Army on the schedule. www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/pennsylvania/1951-schedule.htmlIn 1952, the Penn schedule included Notre Dame, Penn State and Georgia www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/pennsylvania/1952-schedule.htmlIn 1953, the Penn schedule was extremely strong and national with Vanderbilt, PennState, California, Ohio State, Michigan, Navy, Army and Notre Dame being played. www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/pennsylvania/1953-schedule.htmlOne of my family was a class mate of Chuck Bednarik (Concrete Charlie). Needless to say, many of their classmates were not happy with the change in schedule after 1954, despite the prestige of the IL. The Ivy League’s formation quelled the national powerhouse aspiration of many of the Ancient 8.
|
|
|
Post by Crucis#1 on Sept 26, 2020 11:28:32 GMT -5
On the other hand, in 1980 HC played 4 ivy teams. In 1981 HC played 5 ivy opponents 1980 was the first year that the Ivy schedule expanded to 10 games. The were searching for teams to schedule In 1980 and 1981. Adding Holy Cross was for mutual convenience at the time. 1981, was geographically convenient regarding travel for these teams with Harvard, Dartmouth, Yale, Brown and Columbia being on the schedule. Was very nice for alumni travel to the venues.
|
|
|
Post by longsuffering on Sept 26, 2020 11:34:54 GMT -5
Good explanation. I always assumed State Universities (Big Ten, etc.) ascended by placing more emphasis on football, but it was the Ivies who retreated by withdrawing to a regional schedule.
|
|
|
Post by Crucis#1 on Sept 26, 2020 11:48:46 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Chu Chu on Sept 26, 2020 12:06:10 GMT -5
Speaking of Notre Dame, why has Holy Cross never played them in football? I would have thought we would have ben an attractive opponent in our glory days.
|
|