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Post by Non Alum Dave on Sept 27, 2020 4:43:01 GMT -5
Barring lightning striking twice, no one should have to play 35-40 minutes a game this year.
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Post by trimster on Sept 27, 2020 5:02:30 GMT -5
Barring lightning striking twice, no one should have to play 35-40 minutes a game this year. We really have no idea what kind of even serviceable depth this team will have. The late Al McGuire said either the best thing about freshmen is they become sophomores or the best thing about sophomores is they become juniors. Based on the fact for many years of his coaching career, frosh couldn't play varsity ball, it may have been the latter.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Sept 27, 2020 5:05:31 GMT -5
Well, as I posted weeks/months ago, OK, a coach loses a player or two. That's life. Losing as many players as he did, I'll let the statisticians on the board opine but from my perspective saying that's not his fault is a cop-out. It's been years since I took statistics but in the deep recesses of my mind, it strains credulity to think this was coincidence or the stars aligning in just the wrong way. Can't shake the feeling he ran off some of these guys and/or simply didn't care enough to try to keep them. Holy Cross is not a place for "one and dones," our players are here for the long haul with very few exceptions. So, I give him no "out-of-jail-free" card for this coming season. It's on him. Produce! Win! I certainly respect those with opposing views. Boy, not only are you not wearing purple tinted glasses, yours are midnight black emblazoned with skulls and crossbones.
If, indeed CBN's plan was to turn over the roster as quickly as possible and start over for the long term, shouldn't it at least be allowed 2 seasons to bear fruit? Put it this way, would it have been preferable to have most guys stay, have a pretty solid year this year, followed by a bit of a drop off next year (when 5-6 seniors would have graduated), or a scenario where we have major struggles this year with a brand new group, but it jells next year and starts to take off? We all do want the 4 year guys, for sure, but as Ralph Willard used to say, you aim to what guys become in year 3.
As was mentioned, CBN is certainly put a lot of eggs in one basket with this new group of freshmen. It could very well make or break his tenure. While we should be able to see their potential this year (given that there are so many available minutes for them), I just can't expect someone like a RJJ come in and dominate someone like a senior Javante McCoy of BU right off the bat. It's just not realistic to me. But - we should be able to see potential.
I do wish Caleb Green had stuck around. As things turned out, he could have been a valuable transition player as a senior this year.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Sept 27, 2020 5:08:07 GMT -5
Barring lightning striking twice, no one should have to play 35-40 minutes a game this year. We really have no idea what kind of even serviceable depth this team will have. The late Al McGuire said either the best thing about freshmen is they become sophomores or the best thing about sophomores is they become juniors. Based on the fact for many years of his coaching career, frosh couldn't play varsity ball, it may have been the latter. Good point, Trimster. I do think, however, that as they are CBN's recruits he might be willing to give them more of a chance to show what they've got early on.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Sept 27, 2020 5:12:22 GMT -5
Well, as I posted weeks/months ago, OK, a coach loses a player or two. That's life. Losing as many players as he did, I'll let the statisticians on the board opine but from my perspective saying that's not his fault is a cop-out. It's been years since I took statistics but in the deep recesses of my mind, it strains credulity to think this was coincidence or the stars aligning in just the wrong way. Can't shake the feeling he ran off some of these guys and/or simply didn't care enough to try to keep them. Holy Cross is not a place for "one and dones," our players are here for the long haul with very few exceptions. So, I give him no "out-of-jail-free" card for this coming season. It's on him. Produce! Win! I certainly respect those with opposing views. Boy, not only are you not wearing purple tinted glasses, yours are midnight black emblazoned with skulls and crossbones.
If, indeed CBN's plan was to turn over the roster as quickly as possible and start over for the long term, shouldn't it at least be allowed 2 seasons to bear fruit? Put it this way, would it have been preferable to have most guys stay, have a pretty solid year this year, followed by a bit of a drop off next year (when 5-6 seniors would have graduated), or a scenario where we have major struggles this year with a brand new group, but it jells next year and starts to take off? We all do want the 4 year guys, for sure, but as Ralph Willard used to say, you aim to what guys become in year 3.
As was mentioned, CBN is certainly put a lot of eggs in one basket with this new group of freshmen. It could very well make or break his tenure. While we should be able to see their potential this year (given that there are so many available minutes for them), I just can't expect someone like a RJJ come in and dominate someone like a senior Javante McCoy of BU right off the bat. It's just not realistic to me. But - we should be able to see potential.
I do wish Caleb Green had stuck around. As things turned out, he could have been a valuable transition player as a senior this year.
Forgot to add - if we have another mass exodus at some point, and it's not Covid related....then all bets are off for me.
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 27, 2020 8:59:26 GMT -5
Up early on a Sunday morning, are we, Dave? I get your point(s) but for clarification purposes, I am looking at more than wins and losses in any given year (I know, I know, I threw you and others off saying Brett gets no grace period this season from me). The point that really, really concerns (annoys, "chaps me off" as an Arkansas buddy used to always say) is how many of Nelson's players dove off the sinking ship or were forced to walk the plank. This is NOT part of the Holy Cross culture that I identify with over a lifetime. I don't care if Carmody screwed up and recruited a bunch of stiffs. There is, or should be, a trove of loyalty both ways . . . . . players for the team and, more importantly, the College and the coaching staff (i.e. Nelson) for the student-athletes. That loyalty starts with the coach. Put simply, the appropriate cliche is "the end doesn't justify the means". To reiterate, if he lost a couple of guys, maybe even 3, I say "bad break." Losing close to double digits players on a team of 12-15 players, something's rotten in Denmark (yeah, another cliche! )
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Sept 27, 2020 9:25:22 GMT -5
To me, the real stunner was the departure of Joe Pridgen for a school and basketball program, far from home, that I don't see as a step up in any way.
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 27, 2020 9:32:49 GMT -5
Up early on a Sunday morning, are we, Dave? I get your point(s) but for clarification purposes, I am looking at more than wins and losses in any given year (I know, I know, I threw you and others off saying Brett gets no grace period this season from me). The point that really, really concerns (annoys, "chaps me off" as an Arkansas buddy used to always say) is how many of Nelson's players dove off the sinking ship or were forced to walk the plank. This is NOT part of the Holy Cross culture that I identify with over a lifetime. I don't care if Carmody screwed up and recruited a bunch of stiffs. There is, or should be, a trove of loyalty both ways . . . . . players for the team and, more importantly, the College and the coaching staff (i.e. Nelson) for the student-athletes. That loyalty starts with the coach. Put simply, the appropriate cliche is "the end doesn't justify the means". To reiterate, if he lost a couple of guys, maybe even 3, I say "bad break." Losing close to double digits players on a team of 12-15 players, something's rotten in Denmark (yeah, another cliche! ) One and done is unfortunately an accepted basketball term now, although hopefully rare at HC. Three and done is an eye opener and red flag. But I'm going to root, root, root for the home team and coach and enjoy seeing the skills of our new players in action.
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Post by hc6774 on Sept 27, 2020 9:38:36 GMT -5
With the rise of the transfer portal, I think the new term is '1 and reassess'
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 27, 2020 9:40:28 GMT -5
I'll be rooting for the team too. Not because Nelson (or Carmody, or Brown, or Kearney, or Willard, or . . . ) is coach but because the team represents Holy Cross and the team is made up of Holy Cross students like I once was.
Don't misunderstand, I am not rooting against Nelson. I want his team (and him) to succeed. Maybe someday it'll leak as to why so many guys left the team. Were they really just loyal to Carmody rather than the College/team, so when he was gone, so were they? If that's the case, which I find very hard to believe, then shame on them and good riddance. I'm just going by probabilities.
Make me a believer, Brett!
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Post by bigfan on Sept 27, 2020 9:50:54 GMT -5
There will be many more transfers in the coming years. Players do not want to just attend practice and sit on the bench during games. Times have changed.
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 27, 2020 9:53:44 GMT -5
Up early on a Sunday morning, are we, Dave? I get your point(s) but for clarification purposes, I am looking at more than wins and losses in any given year (I know, I know, I threw you and others off saying Brett gets no grace period this season from me). The point that really, really concerns (annoys, "chaps me off" as an Arkansas buddy used to always say) is how many of Nelson's players dove off the sinking ship or were forced to walk the plank. This is NOT part of the Holy Cross culture that I identify with over a lifetime. I don't care if Carmody screwed up and recruited a bunch of stiffs. There is, or should be, a trove of loyalty both ways . . . . . players for the team and, more importantly, the College and the coaching staff (i.e. Nelson) for the student-athletes. That loyalty starts with the coach. Put simply, the appropriate cliche is "the end doesn't justify the means". To reiterate, if he lost a couple of guys, maybe even 3, I say "bad break." Losing close to double digits players on a team of 12-15 players, something's rotten in Denmark (yeah, another cliche! ) OK, here are a few points to consider. 1. "close to" double digit players means HC did not lose double digit players. HC had one graduate (not the type of loss you appear appear to be critiquing) and 5 players return (out of 12). That seems to mean we "lost" 6 (7 if you count the one who never planned to stay more than one year from the get go and left even earlier than he planned)...not close to double digit, is it? You said 12 to 15 players. Where did those extra players come from? 2. This was a team that was said by several posters to "not have any D1 talent." It was said a complete change was needed. However, it was also said that was almost impossible. Now Coach Nelson is being criticized for doing just what some said was needed. I do not know enough about any individual situation to comment on how it was done but it seems to me that a few were helped by him to find new homes. 3. The loss of Pridgen was a tough one IMHO. I hope he does well in his new home. Perhaps he was uncertain of his role with a new "supporting cast." It appears we may have gotten a transfer of at least equal talent. At this point, it is almost impossible to tell for sure. Uncertainty is very real right now. Hard to say how many games HC will win when we do not know for sure how many (if any) games will be played. I can have empatehy for that, but I also want to try to keep grip on reality. Better times are ahead...and yes, that is a low bar for sure after last year. .
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Post by rickii on Sept 27, 2020 9:57:48 GMT -5
I’m neutral on Nelson. Guy walked into a mess when the two best players bailed. Then it got worse when a good player he didn’t recruit and later maybe a better one he did both bailed. We can and did wonder if we’d have gone 3-26 had all 4 played together....I think not. Anyway, with likely at least 4 frosh starting....well, that’s not usually a recipe for immediate results. Unlikely that 4 newcomers will start with 3 returnees who started Three returning starters from a 3-29 team?
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 27, 2020 10:10:21 GMT -5
To me, the real stunner was the departure of Joe Pridgen for a school and basketball program, far from home, that I don't see as a step up in any way. Iirc, In the Jen Toland article Joe said he fit in with the athletes at HC but not socially with the HC student body whereas he does fit in at UNC Wilmington. He said UNC Wilmington is where he can grow as a basketball player and person and he sees it as a step up basketball wise even if we don't. It's not a compliment to HC in any way. And it's not sour grapes because Joe led the team in points, shooting percentage, rebounding and was both PL and ECAC rookie of the year. It's also puzzling because he spent four years at two MA prep schools where the student body shouldn't be radically different from HC, but he also said when he signed at HC he thought he probably wouldn't stay four years, which opens the door a crack for the Carmody bashers to slither through.😊
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Sept 27, 2020 10:14:21 GMT -5
To me, the real stunner was the departure of Joe Pridgen for a school and basketball program, far from home, that I don't see as a step up in any way. ? Wilmington > Worcester, CAA > PL, and basketball-wise UNCW > HC
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Post by timholycross on Sept 27, 2020 10:44:44 GMT -5
I wonder if all 3 returnees will start. In my mind, Butler had to play out of position last year, should never be considered the starting point guard (a backup, sure, for resting your starter or if there is foul trouble). So maybe he's the off guard and Wade comes off the bench.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Sept 27, 2020 10:56:03 GMT -5
HC >UNCW academically and other ways.
We don't know why these players left. Pridgen admitted he wasn't going to stay. I can't blame CBN for the departures although he surely played a part. Maybe players thought he was too much of a drill sergeant, or others were told they weren't going to play much, maybe balancing academics and a sport at HC were too much for some. On paper he's recruited pretty well but we'll see how many of the recruits can play D1 ball. I've also heard of (from players) D1 hoop players being told by a new coach that they had to surrender their scholarship. I'm not accusing CBN of this but we really know very little. When a player comes to HC as a stepping stone, like Pridgen, it's best they leave.
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 27, 2020 10:58:35 GMT -5
I wonder if all 3 returnees will start. In my mind, Butler had to play out of position last year, should never be considered the starting point guard (a backup, sure, for resting your starter or if there is foul trouble). So maybe he's the off guard and Wade comes off the bench. Wade in competition with the new arriving talent for playing time will be a good story line to follow. It will be totally different from last year when he was run ragged due to lack of depth. He can't afford to have developed any bad habits during extended playing time with a depleted 3-29 squad.
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Post by hc87 on Sept 27, 2020 11:27:55 GMT -5
To me, the real stunner was the departure of Joe Pridgen for a school and basketball program, far from home, that I don't see as a step up in any way. ? Wilmington > Worcester, CAA > PL, and basketball-wise UNCW > HC Kids are kids and it's not 1980 anymore I know, but I'm constantly amazed at players/recruits in hoop and football who forego an HC scholarship or transfer from HC to some of these Directional Us or 2nd-tier state schools. HC isn't everyone's cup of tea, I get it....but it just seems so short-sighted imo.
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 27, 2020 11:28:01 GMT -5
Might I suggest at least a temporary moratorium on stating the 3-29 record. It is what it is...and that is in the past. Posting it over and over seems not to serve much of a purpose.
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 27, 2020 11:30:47 GMT -5
I must say that I find it much easier to support players who want to be at, and to graduate from, Holy Cross. IMHO, that is far better than some who say, I want to be at HC..."for now." Those guys are welcome to leave and I only want to hand each of them their hat as they depart...no parting gifts.
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 27, 2020 12:25:52 GMT -5
Yep, I purposely said "close to" knowing that it was not, in fact, double digits or I would have stated that. As for 12 or 15 roster size, that was always my understanding, being too lazy to look it up, the size of the team roster which varies slightly from year to year knowing the minimum has pretty much been 12 but believe a team can have as many as 15. If the team was only a 12 man roster, the percentage of players leaving is even greater and the situation worse. [Just checked, current roster is 13 - listed as 6 freshmen; 2 sophomores; 3 juniors, 2 being transfers in; 2 seniors - 8 new players]
I was also too weary to go back and count how many actually left but we all know the number who left was unprecedented in the history of HC basketball. The number not even close to any prior year. The other unprecedented thing about Nelson's first year was the number of losses. A number that far exceeded prior coaches whose heads were sought to be on a pike (RGS, not literally, of course) like Kearney and Brown. [Just checked, from last year's roster: 12 players - 1 graduated; 5 available to return are doing so; 6 available to return decided not to return. That's 6 of 11 players, almost 55%.]
As for players not being "D-1 talent," I've never said that and question those who did say that. If that was truly the case, that's on Carmody, not the players (should he have been fired earlier rather than be allowed to retire? For another day!). And I again go back to, once they're on campus, I believe you live with that. Since I wasn't one who said the players lacked D-1 talent, I feel free to criticize the wholesale roster turnover.
It's news to me that Pridgen never intended to stay 4 years. Like all the others, I defer to why/how they left when I hear it from a reliable, first hand source, not something on Crossports. Even if that was his intent, to leave, on the coach to convince his best player to stay and had a bright future and a much better education.
I'll put it out there. I was very unhappy with Carmody who I felt "mailed it in" but really expected that a young, "hungry" coach like Nelson would improve on results. Instead, right into the toilet. He gets one more flush as far as I'm concerned. Nothing personal. I've met him. He's a nice guy. He's got a great young family. I absolutely hope all his players are D-1 quality, stay 4 years at Holy Cross and graduate and win multiple PL championships and do well in NCAA playoffs. And then we lose Brett to Louisville, Duke or UNC because he's been so successful and deserving of a big promotion.
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 27, 2020 13:13:14 GMT -5
My long term hope for Nelson is much the same.
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Post by bison137 on Sept 27, 2020 13:28:07 GMT -5
As for 12 or 15 roster size, that was always my understanding, being too lazy to look it up, the size of the team roster which varies slightly from year to year knowing the minimum has pretty much been 12 but believe a team can have as many as 15. Fwiw, there is no NCAA or PL roster limit. Army has rostered as many as 24. Navy has had 21 or 22. Several other PL teams, including Lehigh and Colgate, have rostered 16 or 17.
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 27, 2020 14:03:28 GMT -5
I know. I've been to many Army and Navy games against HC at the Hart Center and the game programs show the huge disparity of roster size but I was talking specifically about the Crusader traditional roster size.
My points still stand.
GO CROSS GO!
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