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Post by nycrusader2010 on Oct 20, 2020 20:23:01 GMT -5
Continue to play at McGuirk during renovations. Plenty of schools have upgraded their stadiums without having to play elsewhere. JMU added about 10,000 seats to Bridgeforth, William & Mary just recently added an upper deck to one side of Zable Stadium. Possibly. I don't know that much about the renovations, but could they have had sufficient capacity for FBS football during renovations? I thought the need for the upgrade was to make it FBS compliant. It's hard to imagine having FBS required capacity while expanding to meet FBS required capacity I don't think James Madison or William & Mary are good analogies. They're both FCS and didn't have to deal with the 15K minimum during renovations.. Maybe UMass could have asked for some sort of waiver during the upgrade UMASS drew 9,000 for a game last November against traditional major college power BYU -- by comparision, HC-Georgetown drew 8,200 that Saturday a couple hours down the Mass Pike. McGuirk's capacity, with or without renovations, would've been just fine.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 20, 2020 20:46:57 GMT -5
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Oct 20, 2020 20:48:24 GMT -5
Capacity at McGuirk wasn't increased w/the renos. Still the 17K it's been since it was built.
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Post by thecrossisback on Oct 20, 2020 20:48:33 GMT -5
We will see about that in the future!
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Post by hc87 on Oct 20, 2020 20:54:12 GMT -5
We will see about that in the future! Love the attitude but it's really almost beyond our control in today's world....I think we can consistently hit around the 10K mark and get 15-20K for a big game/Homecoming/Parent's Weekend (or some combination thereof)....but the days of HC drawing 15K+ consistently are a thing of a bygone past unfortunately.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Oct 20, 2020 20:55:12 GMT -5
Your zeal is great but unless a legit, good, "name" 1A school comes to Fitton, you won't see 20K there again in your, your kids, or your grandkids lifetimes.
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Post by thecrossisback on Oct 20, 2020 21:25:25 GMT -5
I'm interested to see what that fan committee leads to if it ever becomes a thing. But I would like to see a night game which would be your biggest crowd of the season. Some autographs I have from the undefeated 1937 football team. 8-0-2 Bill Osmanski and Ed O’Melia
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Post by thecrossisback on Oct 20, 2020 21:33:25 GMT -5
This is a goal post from the 1935 season. Holy Cross was 9-0-1 Attachments:
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Post by longsuffering on Oct 20, 2020 22:06:08 GMT -5
Note the 14,750 fans at BU's Nickerson Field (former home of the Boston Braves). I was at that game with a friend who's father was a Trustee emeritus of BU and had given us his tickets. Sitting a couple of rows in front of us was BU President John Silber along with BU Professor and recently retired Boston Mayor Kevin White. Sitting a couple of rows behind us was a rowdy bunch from Worcester all with Vernon Hill Legion Post windbreakers on. They started to get on Silber and he turned around in a rage and I thought he would have the group thrown out. Then Kevin White stood up and flashed his pearly whites. In two minutes he had the Legionnaires laughing and eating out of the palm of his hand. So that's what great political skill is, I said to myself. As Silber showed when he ran for Governor and imploded in 1990, he didn't have it. BU football had a great run under coach Dan Allen and then very quickly just gave up the ghost and football was gone. Looking at the list of 1984 FCS Independents in your link makes me wonder if BU and Northeastern had a chance to join the Patriot League, would they still have football and if HC hadn't joined the PL would we still have football? Not a popular theory on this board where the thinking more often is that if we hadn't joined the PL we would be national champions a few times by now.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 20, 2020 22:43:20 GMT -5
I sat in the Fenway Bleachers near in-office Mayor Kevin White once-in that great section that was blocked off as hitting background (after Tony C's injury?) unless the bleachers got sold out. Everyone was calling to him and he was gracious. Some guys sent him a beer which he accepted and enjoyed. Then some wise guy offered him a lit joint---he declined.
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Post by joe on Oct 21, 2020 7:15:36 GMT -5
COVID would be a great excuse for UMass to save face and return to a competitive FCS schedule. Lot of solid northeastern FCS teams to compete with.
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Post by Tom on Oct 21, 2020 10:58:06 GMT -5
I sat in the Fenway Bleachers near in-office Mayor Kevin White once-in that great section that was blocked off as hitting background (after Tony C's injury?) unless the bleachers got sold out. Everyone was calling to him and he was gracious. Some guys sent him a beer which he accepted and enjoyed. Then some wise guy offered him a lit joint---he declined. Totally off topic, but I don't remember that section of bleachers (aka Sec 34) actually getting blocked off until the 21st century. Long after Tony C. It was near to the last to be sold, but you could easily move into there from higher seats in other bleacher sections. Now during day games, the seats are literally covered to make sure they are 100 percent empty
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Post by Ignutz on Oct 21, 2020 11:07:47 GMT -5
COVID would be a great excuse for UMass to save face and return to a competitive FCS schedule. Lot of solid northeastern FCS teams to compete with. After seeing some of the Georgia State v. UMass debacle last week, I was wondering - What kind of a guaranty could we get from UMass if we put together a team of Crossports poster and offerred to play a home game out in Amherst? They might even get a "W" out of it!
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 21, 2020 11:43:07 GMT -5
I sat in the Fenway Bleachers near in-office Mayor Kevin White once-in that great section that was blocked off as hitting background (after Tony C's injury?) unless the bleachers got sold out. Everyone was calling to him and he was gracious. Some guys sent him a beer which he accepted and enjoyed. Then some wise guy offered him a lit joint---he declined. Totally off topic, but I don't remember that section of bleachers (aka Sec 34) actually getting blocked off until the 21st century. Long after Tony C. It was near to the last to be sold, but you could easily move into there from higher seats in other bleacher sections. Now during day games, the seats are literally covered to make sure they are 100 percent empty Dead straightaway--a triangular area as I recall-- was blocked to give batters a better background. One of the ushers/guards would prevent anyone from going into that section--if it opened up there was a big rush to get some of the bests seats in baseball
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Post by Tom on Oct 21, 2020 11:48:09 GMT -5
I must have gone to games with less diligent ushers than you
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Oct 21, 2020 11:48:09 GMT -5
COVID would be a great excuse for UMass to save face and return to a competitive FCS schedule. Lot of solid northeastern FCS teams to compete with. After seeing some of the Georgia State v. UMass debacle last week, I was wondering - What kind of a guaranty could we get from UMass if we put together a team of Crossports poster and offerred to play a home game out in Amherst? They might even get a "W" out of it! Maybe enough to cover a police escort across the PIKE for our Silver Fox Coach from Worcester to Amherst. One way only.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 21, 2020 13:02:37 GMT -5
Note the 14,750 fans at BU's Nickerson Field (former home of the Boston Braves). I was at that game with a friend who's father was a Trustee emeritus of BU and had given us his tickets. Sitting a couple of rows in front of us was BU President John Silber along with BU Professor and recently retired Boston Mayor Kevin White. Sitting a couple of rows behind us was a rowdy bunch from Worcester all with Vernon Hill Legion Post windbreakers on. They started to get on Silber and he turned around in a rage and I thought he would have the group thrown out. Then Kevin White stood up and flashed his pearly whites. In two minutes he had the Legionnaires laughing and eating out of the palm of his hand. So that's what great political skill is, I said to myself. As Silber showed when he ran for Governor and imploded in 1990, he didn't have it. BU football had a great run under coach Dan Allen and then very quickly just gave up the ghost and football was gone. Looking at the list of 1984 FCS Independents in your link makes me wonder if BU and Northeastern had a chance to join the Patriot League, would they still have football and if HC hadn't joined the PL would we still have football? Not a popular theory on this board where the thinking more often is that if we hadn't joined the PL we would be national champions a few times by now. Yeah, I was surprised by that attendance at BU too....I was there on the HC/visitor's side. That had to be one of the biggah crowds at Nickerson evah. BU was solid then too...good backs (Paul Lewis?)....one of their LBs in '84 had a great game against us...Bruce Foucart from New Bedford HS...I think he was one of their captains that year....that was a tough/frustrating loss.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Oct 21, 2020 13:28:06 GMT -5
Yeah....different world today sadly as we oft discussed here....looking at our '84 schedule, we had games at Fitton with attendances of 17K, 19K, 20K and 25K...really almost unthinkable today. Not so unthinkable, except for the fact that HC plays in the Patriot League. Here's how. A college football gate is made up of five types of fans: 1. Season Ticket Holders: in the seats, do or die. 2. Students. Maybe not as loyal today as then, but if it's a good opponent and a nice afternoon, they'll come. 3. The Loyal Locals. They didn't go to HC but they're Worcester's team. 4. The Bandwagoners. Alumni or locals who will go when they're winning, not so if they're aren't. 5. Road fans. What did the 1984 schedule have going for it? Distance...no "road" opponent was further than two hours from Worcester and the mean distance was just 72 miles. That means most of these fans could have breakfast, drive to Fitton Field and be back home by dinner. Add that with a healthy interest from casual fans within an hour of Worcester and 15,000 or 16,000 was not unreasonable in that era. The Patriot League is kryptonite to road crowds. No one outside of a meager few cares. The casual fan who would come out to see UConn isn't interested in Lafayette or Lehigh. The bandwagoners can sit at home and watch Penn State or Alabama on TV and see no need to watch a game with no local interest. HC's closest opponent is three hours away (Fordham), where its fans do not go en masse anywhere beyond the Metro-North. Outside of friends and family, no one is driving up from Washington (400 miles) for a game. BC isn't coming back. But If some wealthy HC booster had the wherewithal, a 2 for 1 deal with UConn or UMass might bring one of those teams to Fitton and HC would sell a lot of tickets. Same for Army, although they don't have to travel to New England like they used to. Fitton is large enough a draw that some teams would be willing to come, but it will cost some money to do so. For PL teams, it's going to have to be local and regional support, because the road fans won't be there.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Oct 21, 2020 14:02:32 GMT -5
Army gets 20K to Fitton. Conn and UMess do not come close.
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Post by timholycross on Oct 22, 2020 11:25:30 GMT -5
Totally off topic, but I don't remember that section of bleachers (aka Sec 34) actually getting blocked off until the 21st century. Long after Tony C. It was near to the last to be sold, but you could easily move into there from higher seats in other bleacher sections. Now during day games, the seats are literally covered to make sure they are 100 percent empty Dead straightaway--a triangular area as I recall-- was blocked to give batters a better background. One of the ushers/guards would prevent anyone from going into that section--if it opened up there was a big rush to get some of the bests seats in baseball They called it Conig's Corner at first, so it started in 69 or 70 (the last two years he played in Boston save for a brief comeback in 75). The difference was that the bleachers were rush seating, so it was done differently. Now they are all numbered seats and it's probably easier, they just don't sell those tickets.
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Post by timholycross on Oct 22, 2020 11:29:15 GMT -5
Note the 14,750 fans at BU's Nickerson Field (former home of the Boston Braves). I was at that game with a friend who's father was a Trustee emeritus of BU and had given us his tickets. Sitting a couple of rows in front of us was BU President John Silber along with BU Professor and recently retired Boston Mayor Kevin White. Sitting a couple of rows behind us was a rowdy bunch from Worcester all with Vernon Hill Legion Post windbreakers on. They started to get on Silber and he turned around in a rage and I thought he would have the group thrown out. Then Kevin White stood up and flashed his pearly whites. In two minutes he had the Legionnaires laughing and eating out of the palm of his hand. So that's what great political skill is, I said to myself. As Silber showed when he ran for Governor and imploded in 1990, he didn't have it. BU football had a great run under coach Dan Allen and then very quickly just gave up the ghost and football was gone. Looking at the list of 1984 FCS Independents in your link makes me wonder if BU and Northeastern had a chance to join the Patriot League, would they still have football and if HC hadn't joined the PL would we still have football? Not a popular theory on this board where the thinking more often is that if we hadn't joined the PL we would be national champions a few times by now. Yeah, I was surprised by that attendance at BU too....I was there on the HC/visitor's side. That had to be one of the biggah crowds at Nickerson evah. BU was solid then too...good backs (Paul Lewis?)....one of their LBs in '84 had a great game against us...Bruce Foucart from New Bedford HS...I think he was one of their captains that year....that was a tough/frustrating loss. Sure was. They blew a chip shot field goal try at the end of the half by the qb scrambling around way, way, way too long and letting the clock run down. Lost by 4 and HC was inside the 20 near the end of the game (and had to go for a touchdown). Messed up the same situation against UNH a week later (this was more a team snafu than the qb messing up) and lost by 3. Could have been 10-0 going into the Doug Flutie Getaway Game at Fitton.
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Post by timholycross on Oct 22, 2020 11:40:22 GMT -5
Yeah....different world today sadly as we oft discussed here....looking at our '84 schedule, we had games at Fitton with attendances of 17K, 19K, 20K and 25K...really almost unthinkable today. Not so unthinkable, except for the fact that HC plays in the Patriot League. Here's how. A college football gate is made up of five types of fans: 1. Season Ticket Holders: in the seats, do or die. 2. Students. Maybe not as loyal today as then, but if it's a good opponent and a nice afternoon, they'll come. 3. The Loyal Locals. They didn't go to HC but they're Worcester's team. 4. The Bandwagoners. Alumni or locals who will go when they're winning, not so if they're aren't. 5. Road fans. What did the 1984 schedule have going for it? Distance...no "road" opponent was further than two hours from Worcester and the mean distance was just 72 miles. That means most of these fans could have breakfast, drive to Fitton Field and be back home by dinner. Add that with a healthy interest from casual fans within an hour of Worcester and 15,000 or 16,000 was not unreasonable in that era. The Patriot League is kryptonite to road crowds. No one outside of a meager few cares. The casual fan who would come out to see UConn isn't interested in Lafayette or Lehigh. The bandwagoners can sit at home and watch Penn State or Alabama on TV and see no need to watch a game with no local interest. HC's closest opponent is three hours away (Fordham), where its fans do not go en masse anywhere beyond the Metro-North. Outside of friends and family, no one is driving up from Washington (400 miles) for a game. BC isn't coming back. But If some wealthy HC booster had the wherewithal, a 2 for 1 deal with UConn or UMass might bring one of those teams to Fitton and HC would sell a lot of tickets. Same for Army, although they don't have to travel to New England like they used to. Fitton is large enough a draw that some teams would be willing to come, but it will cost some money to do so. For PL teams, it's going to have to be local and regional support, because the road fans won't be there. We did play Maine that year at Maine, the week before Thanksgiving in 1984. You could look it up. Same distance as LU and LC. And a lot colder! But, generally, you are right, the schedule in the 5 or so years pre-Patriot was much, much more regional. The CAA would have the same road game problem unless they added another couple schools (in HC's vicinity) and it became some sort of divisional play (so that HC went to the further away schools once in a while).
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Post by hc87 on Oct 22, 2020 13:56:09 GMT -5
Yeah....different world today sadly as we oft discussed here....looking at our '84 schedule, we had games at Fitton with attendances of 17K, 19K, 20K and 25K...really almost unthinkable today. Not so unthinkable, except for the fact that HC plays in the Patriot League. Here's how. A college football gate is made up of five types of fans: 1. Season Ticket Holders: in the seats, do or die. 2. Students. Maybe not as loyal today as then, but if it's a good opponent and a nice afternoon, they'll come. 3. The Loyal Locals. They didn't go to HC but they're Worcester's team. 4. The Bandwagoners. Alumni or locals who will go when they're winning, not so if they're aren't. 5. Road fans. What did the 1984 schedule have going for it? Distance...no "road" opponent was further than two hours from Worcester and the mean distance was just 72 miles. That means most of these fans could have breakfast, drive to Fitton Field and be back home by dinner. Add that with a healthy interest from casual fans within an hour of Worcester and 15,000 or 16,000 was not unreasonable in that era. The Patriot League is kryptonite to road crowds. No one outside of a meager few cares. The casual fan who would come out to see UConn isn't interested in Lafayette or Lehigh. The bandwagoners can sit at home and watch Penn State or Alabama on TV and see no need to watch a game with no local interest. HC's closest opponent is three hours away (Fordham), where its fans do not go en masse anywhere beyond the Metro-North. Outside of friends and family, no one is driving up from Washington (400 miles) for a game. BC isn't coming back. But If some wealthy HC booster had the wherewithal, a 2 for 1 deal with UConn or UMass might bring one of those teams to Fitton and HC would sell a lot of tickets. Same for Army, although they don't have to travel to New England like they used to. Fitton is large enough a draw that some teams would be willing to come, but it will cost some money to do so. For PL teams, it's going to have to be local and regional support, because the road fans won't be there. Interesting post DFW.....nearly always enjoy your posts here Great breakdown of a school's fanbase (at our level anyway). My admittedly unscientific take per usual....I think #1 and #2 are pretty much a push in 2020 vs 1984. Probably a bit more in both cases for 1984 but probably not appreciably so. I think #3 has dropped off significantly in 2020 vs 1984 for a lot of the reasons we've discussed here: town/gown issues with HC and Woo, demographic change in Woo/CMass that is less supportive for following HC football/hoop as they were for much of the 20th C. HC dropping BC in football probably lost a lot of "subway alumni" for people who wanted to root for Wisstahh's team against big, bad Boston. (Not advocating a return for this game annually, though I do like playing them every few years...just explaining how we "lost" locals here,) #4 has probably dropped off as well....how much is uncertain. I know many still go to Homecoming but how many will go to see HC play Georgetown (or any team really) in November...or in late Summah as well. HC not doing particularly well in football from 1992-to the return of scholarships hasn't helped matters either. I could be off on this but anecdotally I see more people in their 40s and 50s at HC tailgates/games than I do people in their 20s and 30s. I know I could be skewed on this (younger people have more family responsibilities etc) but I think it's also a function of people 50+ or so who remember when HC was very good in football at the FCS-level and/or still remember HC playing BC, Army and Syracuse regularly not Bucknell, Lehigh or Lafayette. #5 Has definitely dropped for many of the reasons stated above here and elsewhere. Personally, I will go to a HC game if it's in New England for the most part but unless it's an event (HC in Yankee Stadium, a golf get together weekend/HC game in Penn., NY or NJ etc) I'm staying in Dartmouth and watching on my lap-top. I think we can make inroads on a lot of these...but I think there's very much a ceiling on most of these in 2020.
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Post by bigfan on Oct 22, 2020 14:39:43 GMT -5
As a long time fan going back to the 50's, we lost the local fans when we dropped scholarships and joined the PL. Now that the scholarships have been around for a number of years the quality of the teams is improving. I do not think that the local fans will ever return. We need to schedule teams like Army, Uconn & Umass to possibly get back some of those fans. I always enjoyed the games at West Point.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 22, 2020 14:43:28 GMT -5
I'll put my oar in the water here.
First, I'll second that DFW makes a positive contribution and a different perspective here and I appreciate his participation in discussions on Crossports.
Most of the points made by he and 87 are spot on.
I do think that having a consistent winner; not only winning the PL championship but going multiple steps into the FCS playoffs; playing our FBS opponents close and winning on occasion (read: UConn, UMass and the like); seeing more Crusader footballers make it in the NFL will also significantly help draw folks to Fitton on an autumn afternoon (evening too!). As we've discussed in the past, having significant discounts (free even) for locals, especially families and local students will help pack them in. Look, we aren't selling out Fitton so having a person sitting in an otherwise empty seat costs nothing extra and perhaps the concession stands and swag will bring in some extra revenue.
Chesney seems to be very well liked in the community and Worcester has definitely become his adopted home in part because of his prior stint at Assumption. He's obviously an enthusiastic salesman based on evidence of his recruiting and just watching his videos. The College would do well to have a weekly Coach's Show on the local channel as was done years gone by. He's got a story to tell.
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