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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 7, 2020 21:42:03 GMT -5
Ky, What is Allen’s # on this algorithm ? Here are baseball-reference.com's top 20 third basemen. I've listed the "Career WAR" (Wins above replacement) although some other factors must enter into the ranking as a few of the players are not in the same WAR order as the final ranking. I have rounded to whole numbers 1= Mike Schmidt= 107 Career WAR 2= Ed Mathews= 96 3= Wade Boggs= 91 4= Adrian Beltre= 94 5= Geo Brett= 89 6= Chipper Jones= 85 7= Ron Santa= 70 8= Brooks Robinson= 78 got a lot of WAR for his defense, of course 9= Paul Molitor= 76 played a lot of positions, more at DH than at any single field position 10=Scott Rolen= 70 11= Edgar Martinez =68 played 564 games at third and 1400+ at DH 12= Graig Nettles= 68 13= Home Run Baker= 63 14= Ken Boyer= 63 15= Buddy Bell= 66 16= Sal Bando= 62 17= Dick Allen= 5918= Evan Longoria =57 19= Darrell Evans= 59 20= Robin Ventura= 56
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 7, 2020 22:08:53 GMT -5
Dick Allen was a great ballplayer who got a bad rap as a troublemaker. You can make a case for him as a HOFer but he is hurt by the undeserved rep and the fact that he did not play long enough to get, say, 2,000 hits and 400 homers. The baseball-reference algorithm lists his similar batters as copied below, but note that none are in the Hall yet. Ryan Braun (933.6) Lance Berkman (903.2) Reggie Smith (894.0) Ellis Burks (890.8) Brian Giles (889.9) Nelson Cruz (884.8) Jermaine Dye (880.7) George Foster (880.1) Fred Lynn (875.8) Tim Salmon (875.8) JAWS has him as the #17 third baseman and I think that position may have the fewest HOFers. Several are ranked below him including one or two who should never, in my opinion, made the Hall. May his soul rest in peace. Reggie Smith spoke at my CYO Basketball Banquet after the Red Sox Impossible Dream season of 1967. I just looked him up. He was only 22, and at that time the entire attendance at the Banquet would have been all white as I don't recall any black players in the league or black families in the Parish. Yet I recall that he spoke very well, was totally relaxed and received a hero's welcome form the players and their families in attendance in the packed hall. It's ironic that while that suburban Parish and league are surely more diverse today, there probably are less African Americans in MLB now than in 1967.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Dec 7, 2020 22:22:56 GMT -5
^ What's your point on this post? Why are you surprised that Smith apparently received a warm welcome?
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 7, 2020 22:42:34 GMT -5
I didn't think about it then but looking back I can imagine how intimidating it might have been for a 22 year old from Compton in L.A. yet Reggie was totally at ease. He had a lot of class and I always admired him. It's interesting that Ellis Burks is in the same group of comparable batters. I admired him, too.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 8, 2020 0:03:59 GMT -5
I just checked Reggie Smith's baseball-reference page. He went to Centennial High School in Compton and must have been teammates with Yankee rival Roy White (a year older than Reggie) and Astros pitcher Don Wilson. That must have been some kind of strong high school team
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 8, 2020 1:00:27 GMT -5
Ky, What is Allen’s # on this algorithm ? Here are baseball-reference.com's top 20 third basemen. I've listed the "Career WAR" (Wins above replacement) although some other factors must enter into the ranking as a few of the players are not in the same WAR order as the final ranking. I have rounded to whole numbers 1= Mike Schmidt= 107 Career WAR 2= Ed Mathews= 96 3= Wade Boggs= 91 4= Adrian Beltre= 94 5= Geo Brett= 89 6= Chipper Jones= 85 7= Ron Santa= 70 8= Brooks Robinson= 78 got a lot of WAR for his defense, of course 9= Paul Molitor= 76 played a lot of positions, more at DH than at any single field position 10=Scott Rolen= 70 11= Edgar Martinez =68 played 564 games at third and 1400+ at DH 12= Graig Nettles= 68 13= Home Run Baker= 63 14= Ken Boyer= 63 15= Buddy Bell= 66 16= Sal Bando= 62 17= Dick Allen= 5918= Evan Longoria =57 19= Darrell Evans= 59 20= Robin Ventura= 56 Mildly surprised that Frank Malzone isn't on the list although he started his career at a later age and it didn't last as long as many of the above twenty. It seemed that for several years in the early to mid 60's, Brooks Robinson would be voted first string to the AL all star team and Malzone would be his backup. Frank and Dick "the Monster" Radatz appeared together at a Business Expo at the Centrum in the 80's or 9O's and I was in a crowd of baby boomers listening intently to their stories. Childhood heros never die, they just chase a wind driven pop up into the afterlife.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Dec 8, 2020 7:02:45 GMT -5
Heaven's strong 2020 club . . . Indeed. This team would not lose a lot of games.
C - Mike Ryan/Hal Smith
1B - Bob Watson 2B - Joe Morgan
SS - Tony Fernandez 3B - Dick Allen
OF - Lou Brock OF - Jim Wynn OF - Al Kaline
SP - Bob Gibson SP - Whitey Ford SP - Tom Seaver SP - Phil Niekro
RP - Lindy McDaniel RP - Ron Perranoski
BENCH: Tony Taylor, Eddie Kasko, Claudell Washington, Lou Johnson, Horace Clarke RELIEF/SWING: Ed Farmer, Dick Hyde, Don Larsen, Mike McCormick, Johnny Antonelli
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Post by WorcesterGray on Dec 8, 2020 8:31:45 GMT -5
Mildly surprised that Frank Malzone isn't on the list although he started his career at a later age and it didn't last as long as many of the above twenty. It seemed that for several years in the early to mid 60's, Brooks Robinson would be voted first string to the AL all star team and Malzone would be his backup. Bill James ranks Malzone 59th among the top hundred third basemen, in the general company of solid guys like Richie Hebner, Don Money, Clete Boyer, and Doug Rader. Six-time All-Star, three Gold Gloves, and an ironman from 1957-1964, averaging 152G, 650 PA, and 84 RBI a season during that time, laboring on generally poor teams. As you note, he didn't really do much until he was 27-years-old, the peak age for most good ballplayers, which cut severely into his career totals.
Malzone was a member of the inaugural class of inductees into the Red Sox Hall of Fame.
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Post by timholycross on Dec 8, 2020 14:42:11 GMT -5
Allen played over 800 games at first; played third somewhere in the 600 range.
I don't think he was very good over there, but part of his problem was the Philly fans who razzed him something awful his first tour there.
The team went to hell after his rookie season (the 64 collapse) and he bore the brunt of the criticism.
I think if he played nowadays he'd have hit more homers; someone would have gotten to him about using that sledgehammer he used to use for a bat and sold him on bat speed versus bat weight.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Dec 8, 2020 14:53:26 GMT -5
Allen was much better suited at 1B. Stellar .989 fielding % there.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 8, 2020 14:55:53 GMT -5
That is a solid number. I remember seeing him play but never thought of him at that level.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 8, 2020 15:20:44 GMT -5
Allen was much better suited at 1B. Stellar .989 fielding % there. He fielded .989 at first base right in line with the league average of .991 His numbers at third base are not good His fielding average at 3B was .927 versus a league average of .948 . So he committed 40% more errors than the average third baseman .His range was low-average: 2.84 chances per 9 innings in line with league average of 2.91. His left field numbers were weak as well: .953 fielding average versus the league's .965 and 1.65 chances per 9 innings versus the league's 2.06. The stats gurus have him costing his team 110 runs more than the average fielder. It's not a fair comparison but. in contrast, the stats say Mike Schmidt saved 129 runs versus the average fielder.
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Post by hchoops on Dec 8, 2020 17:10:12 GMT -5
Ky, Does Bill James rank him with first basemen ?
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Post by Crucis#1 on Dec 8, 2020 17:15:59 GMT -5
Poor coaching by the Phillies management had Dick Allen playing out position. The articles that I referenced earlier provides an explanation why he was at third base instead of first base. The 64 collapse was the fault of Gene Mauch and staff not using the pitching rotation properly.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Dec 27, 2020 12:56:58 GMT -5
Heaven's 2020 staff sadly keeps getting stronger. R.I.P. Phil Niekro.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 27, 2020 13:02:55 GMT -5
May his soul rest in peace. Yet one more reason to dislike 2020.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 27, 2020 16:12:23 GMT -5
Heaven's 2020 staff sadly keeps getting stronger. R.I.P. Phil Niekro. I went to his career last game-- in Atlanta--first MLB game my then 3 month old daughter attended. Boyhood friend of John Havlicek--quite the athletic neighborhood
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 27, 2020 16:49:03 GMT -5
Phil once threw a third strike knuckleball that bounced off catcher Bob "Must be in the front rew-w-w" Uecker's shin guard and rolled to Clete Boyer at third who threw the runner out at first. A rare 2-5-3 put out.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Dec 28, 2020 10:30:35 GMT -5
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Jan 8, 2021 12:09:07 GMT -5
Heaven's sadly outstanding 2020 club gets a skipper to start the new year. RIP Tommy Lasorda.
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 8, 2021 12:23:43 GMT -5
A fine man and a great coach. May his soul rest in peace. PLAY BALL!
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Post by mm67 on Jan 9, 2021 12:23:06 GMT -5
Some of us are at that age at which many of the sports heroes of our youth are going bye, bye for good. Lasorda epitomized a baseball lifer with Dodger blue in his veins. He was a joy. Although, my DNA is NY Giants, I truly admired & liked Lasorda and many other Dodgers players from those great Bklyn. teams of the '50's. RIP.
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Post by HC13 on Jan 10, 2021 17:38:06 GMT -5
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 10, 2021 18:33:16 GMT -5
May his soul rest in peace.
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Post by longsuffering on Jan 10, 2021 21:56:49 GMT -5
He stepped down as head coach of UConn in middle age and then stayed on as an advisor/fundraiser for decades. Kind of similar to Ron Perry, Sr. at HC. That speaks very highly of a person.
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