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Post by hc87 on Nov 10, 2020 13:40:30 GMT -5
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 10, 2020 14:44:35 GMT -5
Excellently written and good historical background.
I still don't believe W&M interested in the PL and for many of the reasons DFW wrote about.
One, minor "objection:"
While this may well be true for the general student body, unless things have changed, Tom Gilmore told me not too many years back that all athletes are required by the NCAA to submit SAT scores, including at Holy Cross.
I am not aware that this requirement has been loosened for Holy Cross or any other PL school.
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Post by timholycross on Nov 11, 2020 3:42:00 GMT -5
I assume he meant "temporarily due to Covid".
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Post by alum on Nov 11, 2020 8:49:04 GMT -5
Excellent summary of where the PL came from, where it is, and where it might go. The redshirt thing is a problem, especially when combined with the 60 scholarship limit. I don't like the idea of automatic redshirts in football any more than I like the high percentage of basketball players who take five years in high school. I think that part of the HC allure is the fact that a huge percentage of the kids graduate in four years. I also know that this is just me longing for long passed times. I think there are too many obstacles, as DFW described, to William and Mary joining. On a tangent, I looked at W and M admissions stats: www.wm.edu/admission/undergraduateadmission/facts-figures/admission-stats/index.phpThey show several interesting points including: fairly high percentage of acceptances , especially among instate students, for such a great school and less than 10% of the class applying ED. |
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 11, 2020 9:41:29 GMT -5
Not sure how much of that is an "allure" for student-athletes, especially ones who see themselves as playing their sport professionally after college.
I've posted in the past of when I lived in the Columbus area 20+ years ago when my business associates were impressed with a kid who graduated (a non-athlete) from The Ohio State University "in just 4 years!" I was like, "WHAT?! How is that a big deal"?I was informed that in order to get all the required courses for graduation, there was a bottleneck of sorts for the requirements and took some juggling of scheduling to accomplish that. An art, in and of itself. Guess that counted as "street smarts" in Columbus.
At any rate, while we are proud of the 4 year graduation rate, as we should be, and so is the NCAA, I really don't think it means much for many athletes nowadays. Hopefully, I'm not being too cynical.
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Post by alum on Nov 11, 2020 10:15:16 GMT -5
Not sure how much of that is an "allure" for student-athletes, especially ones who see themselves as playing their sport professionally after college.I've posted in the past of when I lived in the Columbus area 20+ years ago when my business associates were impressed with a kid who graduated (a non-athlete) from The Ohio State University "in just 4 years!" I was like, " WHAT?! How is that a big deal"?I was informed that in order to get all the required courses for graduation, there was a bottleneck of sorts for the requirements and took some juggling of scheduling to accomplish that. An art, in and of itself. Guess that counted as "street smarts" in Columbus. At any rate, while we are proud of the 4 year graduation rate, as we should be, and so is the NCAA, I really don't think it means much for many athletes nowadays. Hopefully, I'm not being too cynical. You are right, of course. |
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Post by timholycross on Nov 11, 2020 10:22:51 GMT -5
With Holy Cross, I'd say that the scarcity (or total lack) of summer classes is another factor in the "limited redshirting" philosophy.
I bet a place like UNH, the kids who redshirt are gone at Christmas time their 5th year...because they've put in the required course work.
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Post by gks on Nov 11, 2020 11:02:39 GMT -5
The thing about SATs and ACTs is that while schools don't require them they will look at them if you send them. They are still a factor in admissions.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Nov 11, 2020 12:08:26 GMT -5
You have to submit a standardized test score to the NCAA clearinghouse to be eligible to play college sports at any level.
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Post by purplehaze on Nov 11, 2020 12:19:02 GMT -5
I believe that rule has been suspended this year (for athletes starting college in Aug-Sep 2021) because of the virus - wonder if some Power 5 schools will try to eliminate this requirement permanently.
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Post by hc87 on Nov 11, 2020 13:01:31 GMT -5
I think a 5th red-shirt year could be worked out at true 4-year colleges like HC and Lafayette....this really isn't rocket science.
We know it's already being done (at HC anyway) for medical red-shirts.
As we've stated here, one of the difficulties (if one wants to call it that) HC has is that it's known or perceived to be known anyway as a "liberal arts" school. While I'm totally fine with that, I think the collective mindset today is more and more of the belief that: "What are you going to do with a English, history, philosophy degree when you graduate? Open a philosophy store?"
I know td128 and many others are doing a great job in showing how HC is the "smahht choice"....but I think the school has to better address this issue...and this goes beyond prospective HC student-athletes to prospective HC students as well.
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Post by hchoops on Nov 11, 2020 13:18:22 GMT -5
Our alums, past and recent, are doing pretty well with a Liberal Arts degree.
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Post by hcpride on Nov 11, 2020 13:59:34 GMT -5
You have to submit a standardized test score to the NCAA clearinghouse to be eligible to play college sports at any level. Yes . And I know in the PL it is part of the AI calculation so I assume it is part of the HC student athlete application and further assume that means it is considered a submitted SAT/ACT in terms of calculating HC's overall stats for board scores (accepted and enrolled). As far as regular (non-recruited student athletes) students go there is no doubt that those who think their standardized tests will help to gain admission to HC (for example) submit them while other applicants prudently do not. All things being equal, stronger board scores are helpful even in the test-optional schools. (And this Covid year that is almost every school.) Caltech is "Test Blind" (don't want tests submitted at all and if they are they are ignored) for this Covid year. (There are a few others.) |
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Post by matunuck on Nov 11, 2020 14:27:27 GMT -5
Fauci was a classics major. We're really a "liberal arts & sciences" college. We should brand ourselves that way.
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Post by hc87 on Nov 11, 2020 16:47:37 GMT -5
I don't disagree with how solid HC is educationally etc and producing graduates who go onto success in many varied fields...I'm just of the belief the school could be doing a better job somehow promoting this...or creating majors/pathways etc. that speak to how well prepared for the "real world" they will be upon graduation.
The 42/58 breakdown for M/F in the last admitted class to HC troubles me a bit.
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 11, 2020 18:33:26 GMT -5
So, those who understand these things better than I, perhaps explain to me the financial ramifications of redshirting whether medical or otherwise. I was mentoring one of the football players who had a medical redshirt at HC. What he did was skip a spring semester and came back for an extra fall semester and finished up his studies at the end of that fall semester. He was going to "walk" with that class in May/June graduation but called off on accounta covid (like my 50th reunion!  ). Since he was on full scholarship, as far as I know, he was on campus the usual 8 semesters and presumably no additional expense. If he hadn't been injured and redshirted, would have presumably been the same logistics. So, is there an actual "downside" financially, for either the college or the student to redshirting or this just a prideful thing? Inquiring minds want to know!  |
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Nov 11, 2020 18:48:49 GMT -5
Traditional FBS redshirting does add a great deal of expense, I think, as the player is on campus for 5 years to play for 4 seasons. It may cost even more with the ludicrous “ true cost of attendance” stipends that provide athletes with thousands of dollars in expense payments each yeaty
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Post by hcgrad94 on Nov 11, 2020 19:16:45 GMT -5
I think a 5th red-shirt year could be worked out at true 4-year colleges like HC and Lafayette....this really isn't rocket science. We know it's already being done (at HC anyway) for medical red-shirts. As we've stated here, one of the difficulties (if one wants to call it that) HC has is that it's known or perceived to be known anyway as a "liberal arts" school. While I'm totally fine with that, I think the collective mindset today is more and more of the belief that: "What are you going to do with a English, history, philosophy degree when you graduate? Open a philosophy store?" I know td128 and many others are doing a great job in showing how HC is the "smahht choice"....but I think the school has to better address this issue...and this goes beyond prospective HC student-athletes to prospective HC students as well. I know you would never say that, but you’re saying that. I would say those degrees put you in charge of the kids who went to Vocational schools and can only run one lane. But you already knew that. |
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 11, 2020 19:34:23 GMT -5
KY, maybe 5 calendar years but my understanding was the player I worked with left campus one spring semester and came back the following fall semester. Maybe I got that wrong but, if not, still on campus 8 semesters like a “normal” student-athlete.
Totally admitting I may be missing something here.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Nov 11, 2020 19:42:22 GMT -5
That’s why I said “traditional FBS redshirting “.
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 11, 2020 19:55:04 GMT -5
Ahhhh. I missed that distinction.  |
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 11, 2020 20:08:01 GMT -5
So, for a number of years now, some of us have worked with Prof. David Chu and Holy Cross has created a pre-business program. I unsuccessfully lobbied for a specific Insurance program as about 10-12 years ago I was offered a position at Kent State to create and run a new insurance major/program there. I considered taking an early retirement (would have been a significant pay cut) but chose to stay put near family rather than return to Ohio. No, I wasn't volunteering to work at Holy Cross.
Here is what Prof. Chu and his colleagues have created to help fill the gap between the theoretical liberal arts world and the "real" world of business. (BTW, lots of math majors are wisely going into insurance in the actuarial field - supposedly one of the careers most highly rated for job satisfaction but we non-actuarial insurance folks have the saying about actuaries: "he wanted to be an accountant but didn't have the personality"):
And, let me give kudos to both HC92 and Crucis for being among those who spoke on our panel discussions to HC students about careers in insurance during past Homecomings.
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Post by princetoncrusader on Nov 11, 2020 22:03:33 GMT -5
Some FBS schools are also engaged in green shirting, even at places like Northwestern.
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Post by hc87 on Nov 11, 2020 22:48:00 GMT -5
The fact remains....a 42/58, M/F class at HC doesn't bode well moving forward..... troubling
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Nov 12, 2020 2:09:17 GMT -5
The fact remains....a 42/58, M/F class at HC doesn't bode well moving forward..... troubling I could be wrong but hasn't HC done a better job that some other schools over the past few years regarding gender balance? Has the pandemic had an effect on the overall gender balance of HS grads going to college? |
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