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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 28, 2020 23:12:34 GMT -5
But the point wasn't whether it's easier for an athlete to get into HC, the point is that a white student assumed that a black student was at HC because he played a sport. Black people deal with such micro aggressions every day. I'm curious: who is the "Sweetheart" in this post? Whoever the person was with the "bigotry of low expectations" that they assumed that the black student they encountered was an athlete (and as the article alludes to, assumes that's why the individual got into school).
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Post by HC92 on Nov 29, 2020 13:20:31 GMT -5
A few observations from my time at HC: I do believe that the College has some issues surrounding "racial inclusion" on campus, or the lack thereof: 1) We have a very active BSU as well as several other student groups made up of people of color with very strong strong membership. This is a double-edged sword, as students in these groups tend to form their friend groups from within. Having the support network is awesome but often leaves students of color on somewhat of their own island when it comes to campus social life. Not that they are by any means "excluded" but at a cliquey small college like Holy Cross, it may seem that way. 2) The summer before freshman year, a large number of the incoming students of color are invited to a four-week-long program that is not open to all incoming freshman (except the men's and women's basketball teams). This program results in a lot of life-long friendships and, again, a strong support network for students of color. However, one negative side effect, is that these students begin to form their own "bubble" before everyone else gets to campus. Just like if you were on Hanselman 1st floor freshman year and you end up forming most of your college friendship with guys you met on that floor the first month, students of color in the Horizons program tend to do the same with others they met in the program. 3) Comparing HC to my high school for a minute. I went to an academically very well known all-boys HS in Manhattan that is tuition free. The school was probably slightly less diverse than Holy Cross, due in large part because you had to be baptized Catholic to attend. Roughly 70% White, 20% Hispanic, 5% Asian, 5% African American if I had to guess. However, our admissions director always preached color-blindness, meaning that people ought to be judged and looked at by their cultural upbringing and life experiences as opposed to skin color. Furthermore, that the word diversity applies to far more than just race. HC preached kind of the opposite, more "let's celebrate our differences and be proud of our ethnic diversity" -- sort of tribalism if you will. Looking at both, my high school had the better approach of the two, the proof being the quality and quantity of interracial relationships amongst students. My HS also does not practice ethnic affirmative action, but does take into account the "financial need" for a free education, meaning that high-achieving students from low-income families have an edge in admissions. On an unrelated side note, it's also the only school I've ever heard of where legacy gives you an absolute zero boost in admissions. 4) From my observation over the years, New England and Metro Boston in particular tends to be racially balkanized. I never lived in Boston but dated someone living there for multiple years. I find that individuals of different ethnic backgrounds don't seem to mix as much in Boston as opposed to New York City. Maybe NYC is just one of a kind and I'm giving Boston a bad rap for race relations. But just going off what I've seen and observed. Anyway, I wasn't overly offended or upset by the article. HC does have some work to do in the race relations department. It starts at the top IMO. The administration needs to stop treating racial diversity as a "feather in the cap" and something to plant on brochure covers. It's a small college of 3,000 undergrads -- allow us to celebrate our diversity of talent, skills and interests before immediately separating us into ethnic-based groups the moment we step on campus. One thing I did notice early on at HC -- frosh students of color bonded much quicker with upperclassmen than their peers due to connections through Horizons program and BSU/ALANA student groups. Excellent post. I would have said many of the same things based on my experiences 20 years prior to yours. HC is very much set up as a segregated society. Need to find ways to bring students together earlier rather than isolating specific groups in the name of support with no plan to break down that isolation. Sports are the only place it really works at HC. The non-athlete, diverse students tend to stick with their own for their entire four years. As do the white students. It’s no wonder many still feel there are race issues on campus. Walk into Kimball one day and see who is sitting with whom. My oldest goes to a pretty diverse Catholic high school and it’s much more integrated than HC seems to be. They celebrate all sorts of differences without creating separate groups based on skin color that don’t interact with each other. Sounds like HC and other colleges could learn from that approach which seems similar to what Regis does. There are a lot of great kids at HC from all different backgrounds. Expose them to each other from day one and help them understand those differences rather than setting it up where they’re separate from day one and tend to stay that way. I know that’s not the intent but that’s what has been happening since the late 1980s, early 1990s. We should be much farther along than we are. Another reason I’m looking forward to new leadership on the hill.
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 29, 2020 15:05:30 GMT -5
1. Lack of experience ("ignorance," if you prefer) dealing with a person of another race is not necessarily racism. 2. "Diversity" is more than racial differences. Having led the creation of my company's diversity plan and made sure to have a diverse team creating it with me, that was the very first thing we all discovered, including my black "second in command." 3. As for the comment that a black student was asked by a white classmate "what sport do you play?" may have been ignorance, may have been racism but a couple of thoughts: While I did not see that comment in the referenced article, I do believe I saw in an HC video that it was attributed to one of my Classmates (there were but 2 black 1970 Classmates, one was a star track athlete), unless it happened to more than one black student. I happened to have lived on the same freshmen corridor of the individual who allegedly made that comment. With no intended disrespect to him, shall we say he was less athletic looking than I. In those days, in an all-male environment, virtually all of us played sports. If not varsity (most did not), almost all played intramurals especially in freshmen year where each corridor had its own team (football, basketball, etc. - thank you, Fr. Hart). It would not be unusual for any student at the time to ask another "what sport do you play?"
Again, not excusing what might have actually been a racist assumption but there are other possible interpretations that might have genuinely been misconstrued.
Finally, yes, we can all do better at treating others equally and fairly and differences are actually a strength.
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Post by purplenurple on Nov 29, 2020 15:31:19 GMT -5
A few observations from my time at HC: I do believe that the College has some issues surrounding "racial inclusion" on campus, or the lack thereof: 1) We have a very active BSU as well as several other student groups made up of people of color with very strong strong membership. This is a double-edged sword, as students in these groups tend to form their friend groups from within. Having the support network is awesome but often leaves students of color on somewhat of their own island when it comes to campus social life. Not that they are by any means "excluded" but at a cliquey small college like Holy Cross, it may seem that way. 2) The summer before freshman year, a large number of the incoming students of color are invited to a four-week-long program that is not open to all incoming freshman (except the men's and women's basketball teams). This program results in a lot of life-long friendships and, again, a strong support network for students of color. However, one negative side effect, is that these students begin to form their own "bubble" before everyone else gets to campus. Just like if you were on Hanselman 1st floor freshman year and you end up forming most of your college friendship with guys you met on that floor the first month, students of color in the Horizons program tend to do the same with others they met in the program. 3) Comparing HC to my high school for a minute. I went to an academically very well known all-boys HS in Manhattan that is tuition free. The school was probably slightly less diverse than Holy Cross, due in large part because you had to be baptized Catholic to attend. Roughly 70% White, 20% Hispanic, 5% Asian, 5% African American if I had to guess. However, our admissions director always preached color-blindness, meaning that people ought to be judged and looked at by their cultural upbringing and life experiences as opposed to skin color. Furthermore, that the word diversity applies to far more than just race. HC preached kind of the opposite, more "let's celebrate our differences and be proud of our ethnic diversity" -- sort of tribalism if you will. Looking at both, my high school had the better approach of the two, the proof being the quality and quantity of interracial relationships amongst students. My HS also does not practice ethnic affirmative action, but does take into account the "financial need" for a free education, meaning that high-achieving students from low-income families have an edge in admissions. On an unrelated side note, it's also the only school I've ever heard of where legacy gives you an absolute zero boost in admissions. 4) From my observation over the years, New England and Metro Boston in particular tends to be racially balkanized. I never lived in Boston but dated someone living there for multiple years. I find that individuals of different ethnic backgrounds don't seem to mix as much in Boston as opposed to New York City. Maybe NYC is just one of a kind and I'm giving Boston a bad rap for race relations. But just going off what I've seen and observed. Anyway, I wasn't overly offended or upset by the article. HC does have some work to do in the race relations department. It starts at the top IMO. The administration needs to stop treating racial diversity as a "feather in the cap" and something to plant on brochure covers. It's a small college of 3,000 undergrads -- allow us to celebrate our diversity of talent, skills and interests before immediately separating us into ethnic-based groups the moment we step on campus. One thing I did notice early on at HC -- frosh students of color bonded much quicker with upperclassmen than their peers due to connections through Horizons program and BSU/ALANA student groups. We all know what high school you are referring to and let's not throw stones: www.nytimes.com/2020/09/24/nyregion/regis-catholic-school-racism.html
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Post by newfieguy74 on Nov 29, 2020 17:08:38 GMT -5
I agree that leadership at HC, and elsewhere, is important but in his book Ibram Kendi (now a professor at BU) says that you're either you're anti-racist or you're racist, no in-between. We all have to be part of the solution. Historically white people have let themselves off the hook by saying that racism is the fault of "bad" white people or "bad" leaders, and that it's not their fault because they do not engage in overtly racist behaviors. The NYT article about Regis (which I otherwise know little about) is interesting because it mirrors the comments in some way of every single black person I know or have spoken with. When I was at HC (early 70's) black students requested their own floor (they got one, on Healy I think). Many white students were dismissive if not worse, but the black students wanted a safe space. One could argue that the solution doesn't start at the top, but at the bottom, where each of us answers how committed we are to be anti-racist actively opposing racism.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 29, 2020 17:16:53 GMT -5
If were going to post NY Times Articles, can we either:
a) copy and paste text
OR
b) pay for subscription for the remainder of Crossports
Edit: I was able to read the article. Thank you for the post and it was an inspiring read. In short, the article recounts a Regis students' discussion of racial micro-aggression dealt with both prior to and during his HS years. The student made it sound like the school as an institution was doing everything it could do create an accepting culture. Young adults, at Regis or anywhere, are obviously socially immature. As a result, micro-aggressions unfortunately happen, in addition to occasional bullying incidents that are outright mean. This happens at every high school. Looking back to my high school years, I definitely said things and made jokes that were both inappropriate and wrong. During my HS years, gay marriage was a hot-button issue -- and my graduating class had probably a dozen or so students that are now openly gay. I cringe looking back thinking about how the words "gay" and "fag" were tossed around the locker room and cafeteria.
Not sure what is meant by "throwing stones" -- I am an alum of both Regis AND Holy Cross. In my prior post, I highlighted from my personal experience how Regis institutionally facilitates stronger race relations than Holy Cross. When Regis talks about celebrating diversity, it's more about how we enter the school coming from a wide variety of NYC neighborhoods, speak a variety of different languages, bring different educational backgrounds (public/private/Catholic), have parents with a wide range of different blue collar and white collar professions, present first or second-generation immigrant experiences, etc. Whereas HC from the moment we're on campus it's "let's celebrate our various differences in skin color".
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 29, 2020 17:53:18 GMT -5
I agree that leadership at HC, and elsewhere, is important but in his book Ibram Kendi (now a professor at BU) says that you're either you're anti-racist or you're racist, no in-between. We all have to be part of the solution. Historically white people have let themselves off the hook by saying that racism is the fault of "bad" white people or "bad" leaders, and that it's not their fault because they do not engage in overtly racist behaviors. The NYT article about Regis (which I otherwise know little about) is interesting because it mirrors the comments in some way of every single black person I know or have spoken with. When I was at HC (early 70's) black students requested their own floor (they got one, on Healy I think). Many white students were dismissive if not worse, but the black students wanted a safe space. One could argue that the solution doesn't start at the top, but at the bottom, where each of us answers how committed we are to be anti-racist actively opposing racism. Isn't this the guy that called ACB a white colonizer for adopting Haitian children?
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Post by ndgradbuthcfan on Nov 29, 2020 18:08:42 GMT -5
I seriously doubt that this is true, no matter what color you are. Responding to NYCrusader.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 29, 2020 18:35:25 GMT -5
I seriously doubt that this is true, no matter what color you are. Responding to NYCrusader. My apologies for my own confusion but not sure which post you are responding to. The one about the BU professor and alleged ACB comment?
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Post by ndgradbuthcfan on Nov 30, 2020 6:56:44 GMT -5
I seriously doubt that this is true, no matter what color you are. Responding to NYCrusader. My apologies for my own confusion but not sure which post you are responding to. The one about the BU professor and alleged ACB comment? Your "Sweetheart" post. Even in the Patriot League, impact players get a break with admissions.
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Post by hcpride on Nov 30, 2020 7:27:08 GMT -5
I agree that leadership at HC, and elsewhere, is important but in his book Ibram Kendi (now a professor at BU) says that you're either you're anti-racist or you're racist, no in-between... Not sure he is a credible source. Beyond that, there are folks who see America and its institutions as profoundly and irredeemably racist. Given that, it is no surprise Holy Cross might be labelled profoundly and irredeemably racist. (And no surprise anti-racists would label those who question the notion as racists in their either-or universe). In some circles the anti-racists are seen as cutting edge theorists. In other circles their writings are viewed as nonsense. That is not unique to anti-racists. One could say the same regarding the privilege theory academics also. Although theories such as anti-racism and anti-fascism are wonderfully named (after all, who wants to be known as a racist or a fascist) the actual theories and practice of the two niche movements leave a bit to be desired (IMHO).
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 30, 2020 7:29:46 GMT -5
My apologies for my own confusion but not sure which post you are responding to. The one about the BU professor and alleged ACB comment? Your "Sweetheart" post. Even in the Patriot League, impact players get a break with admissions. Got it -- I was being a little bit hyperbolic. Of course, being a recruited athlete gives you an edge in admissions in the Patriot League, but it's not as if the academic standards drop significantly. If we recruited athletes incapable of handling the workload, it would be a bit problematic. At a liberal arts college there's nowhere to academically "hide" an athlete. Different story at larger, albeit well-renown academic schools like UVA, Vanderbilt, UNC, Syracuse, Cal-Berkeley and the like.
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Post by Tom on Nov 30, 2020 9:16:12 GMT -5
Your "Sweetheart" post. Even in the Patriot League, impact players get a break with admissions. Got it -- I was being a little bit hyperbolic. Of course, being a recruited athlete gives you an edge in admissions in the Patriot League, but it's not as if the academic standards drop significantly. If we recruited athletes incapable of handling the workload, it would be a bit problematic. At a liberal arts college there's nowhere to academically "hide" an athlete. Different story at larger, albeit well-renown academic schools like UVA, Vanderbilt, UNC, Syracuse, Cal-Berkeley and the like. In the Patriot League, I think even the impact athletes are reasonably in the academic bell curve. In varying degrees, I do not believe that is so in most athletic powerhouses.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Nov 30, 2020 9:37:56 GMT -5
Regis does everything in their power to target, advance, "give the edge to," and make feel-included the traditional minority populations on the NYC metro area. As a white student, I never felt that was done at the detriment to me, personally, while I was there.
Holy Cross has lots of enabling student unions for all types of minority populations. My core group of friends I think had only one "white" kid in it besides me. A kid from the Sudan, another from the Philippines who later came out as gay, a half Japanese half Venezuelan, a half black half Puerto Rican, Jamaican, black whatever... we used to joke that our group of kids was the United Nations. It's not to brag... I was just lucky that I met a ton of stand-up, smart, funny, loyal, awesome people and latched on to them pretty quickly when trying to make friends and find my way through the early days of school.
I did notice that some of those guys had already formed ties with the orientations before classes began and the wider student population was on campus, so they had a leg up there, but it didn't mean I was isolated or felt excluded per se.
With respect to Regis (to some degree) and Holy Cross-- and also, planet earth: there are assholes everywhere. There were plenty of kids that I knew I couldn't stand (could have been just as much my fault) who were arrogant, ignorant, and some that even lobbed racist barbs at my friends while excluding them from a Caro Street neighborhood party. They were also part of one of the D1 sports teams that doesn't share the same racial demographic... I'm not sure why I'm compelled to mention that now, other than maybe to say that no group of people is perfect.
This isn't a Regis or Holy Cross or any other specific institution's problem. It's a problem with people. Even if the percentage of true "racists" is small, there's enough people that the absolute numbers are high. Even one person is too many. I don't mean to excuse it, but let's not say institutions that go out of their way to try to fix it are to blame.
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Post by rgs318 on Nov 30, 2020 9:39:11 GMT -5
I have brought it up before, but does any else remember when some athletes at Syracuse got "Certificates of Attendance" rather than degrees at graduation ceremonies? That spoke volumes to me of just how academically (un)prepared some athletes were. The school (and others) wanted the best efforts of the athletes, but did not make the same effort to see that the athletes involved actually were working toward and receiving a degree. I believe things are better now...perhaps one positive effect of NCAA supervision
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 30, 2020 10:43:13 GMT -5
Got it -- I was being a little bit hyperbolic. Of course, being a recruited athlete gives you an edge in admissions in the Patriot League, but it's not as if the academic standards drop significantly. If we recruited athletes incapable of handling the workload, it would be a bit problematic. At a liberal arts college there's nowhere to academically "hide" an athlete. Different story at larger, albeit well-renown academic schools like UVA, Vanderbilt, UNC, Syracuse, Cal-Berkeley and the like. In the Patriot League, I think even the impact athletes are reasonably in the academic bell curve. In varying degrees, I do not believe that is so in most athletic powerhouses. Just a theory here and I could totally be wrong -- but I actually wouldn't be surprised if the standards to get into Holy Cross are higher as a RECRUITED BLACK ATHLETE than as a regular black applicant. Obviously, Holy Cross practices affirmative action to some degree in admissions, and I would have no way of knowing the average test scores or GPAs for accepted students of color -- and of course HC is SAT optional. However, SAT's are NOT optional for recruited athletes due to the Patriot League AI. And there's no "affirmative action" when it comes to the AI -- you're either within the bounds or your not.
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Post by Tom on Nov 30, 2020 11:33:58 GMT -5
I have brought it up before, but does any else remember when some athletes at Syracuse got "Certificates of Attendance" rather than degrees at graduation ceremonies? That spoke volumes to me of just how academically (un)prepared some athletes were. The school (and others) wanted the best efforts of the athletes, but did not make the same effort to see that the athletes involved actually were working toward and receiving a degree. I believe things are better now...perhjaps one positive effect of NCAA supervision That wasn't just Syracuse. I was under the impression it was kind of common practice.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Nov 30, 2020 11:47:34 GMT -5
I recall the story of Greg Oden who entered The Ohio State University as one of the top basketball recruits in the country. Apparently he was a smart student and he wanted to study finance and signed up for the requisite course load for finance majors. Athletic administrators found out about that and the response, paraphrasing, was "No no no, you only need to take two courses (or whatever the minimum was) to stay academically qualified this semester: you are not going to be a finance major"
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 30, 2020 12:55:01 GMT -5
Oden actually went back to Ohio State as a student manager after multiple NBA comeback attempts and completed his degree in 2019.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Nov 30, 2020 15:22:41 GMT -5
Oden actually went back to Ohio State as a student manager after multiple NBA comeback attempts and completed his degree in 2019. That is truly an encouraging story---smart young man
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Post by Chu Chu on Nov 30, 2020 15:41:33 GMT -5
When I came to this discussion today it was discouraging to me to see the initial, reactionary comments, where people felt attacked. I am a white guy who attended Holy Cross 50 years ago, at the time when the BSU was just being formed. I have learned that what I really need to do is listen and try to understand. It has helped me to grow. To say that a country or institution is racist is not to say that they are intentionally acting to harm. Rather, it means that the structure and legacy of that country or institution is perpetuating harm in some way, and we may be oblivious to how others are harmed. That is why we need to listen to those affected to in order to understand how they are affected and why they see things as problematic.This is why thought leaders like Ibram Kendi tell us that you're either anti-racist or racist. Either we we listen and try to make common cause to change the structure and legacy perpetuating racism (anti-racist), or we allow it to continue (racist).
This is not a time to feel guilty or attacked. Rather, it is a time to grow and understand. I appreciate the article and the good people at Holy Cross who are in dialog about this.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 30, 2020 16:22:51 GMT -5
When I came to this discussion today it was discouraging to me to see the initial, reactionary comments, where people felt attacked. I am a white guy who attended Holy Cross 50 years ago, at the time when the BSU was just being formed. I have learned that what I really need to do is listen and try to understand. It has helped me to grow. To say that a country or institution is racist is not to say that they are intentionally acting to harm. Rather, it means that the structure and legacy of that country or institution is perpetuating harm in some way, and we may be oblivious to how others are harmed. That is why we need to listen to those affected to in order to understand how they are affected and why they see things as problematic.This is why thought leaders like Ibram Kendi tell us that you're either anti-racist or racist. Either we we listen and try to make common cause to change the structure and legacy perpetuating racism (anti-racist), or we allow it to continue (racist).
This is not a time to feel guilty or attacked. Rather, it is a time to grow and understand. I appreciate the article and the good people at Holy Cross who are in dialog about this. Great post overall -- Only issue with the line that certain individuals like Kendi draw is that they will constantly move the "are you racist" goalposts to perpetuate the idea that no matter the efforts you make, you're still racist. "Silence is violence" was a big phrase trending on social media -- meaning that being "not racist" isn't enough. But when does being anti-racist become enough? Are you allowed to silently donate to black-owned businesses destroyed by looting or does it not count until you advertise on social media that you've done it? Is marching against police brutality against African Americans enough or must you openly advocate for defunding your local police department? Adopting Haitian-born children and providing them a structured family life in the US is not enough according to Kendi -- maybe it's enough when the "white savior" adoptive parent sends the blood parents of the child a reparations check to atone for European colonization? To answer my own question in an earlier post in this thread, Kendi did not outwardly call ACB a white colonizer for adopting Haitian children. However, once this fact was brought to light in a newspaper article, he said the following on Twitter, "Some white colonizers 'adopted' black children. They 'civilized' these 'savage' children in the 'superior' ways of the white people, using them as props in their lifelong pictures of denial, while cutting the biological parents of these children out of the picture of humanity. And whether this is Barrett or not is not the point. It is a belief too many white people have: if they have or adopt a child of color, then they can't be racist".
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Post by princetoncrusader on Dec 1, 2020 11:13:21 GMT -5
I have brought it up before, but does any else remember when some athletes at Syracuse got "Certificates of Attendance" rather than degrees at graduation ceremonies? That spoke volumes to me of just how academically (un)prepared some athletes were. The school (and others) wanted the best efforts of the athletes, but did not make the same effort to see that the athletes involved actually were working toward and receiving a degree. I believe things are better now...perhjaps one positive effect of NCAA supervision That wasn't just Syracuse. I was under the impression it was kind of common practice. At the other end of the spectrum, the LS for Northwestern is majoring in biological sciences and is taking courses at the University's medical school. A record 17 Wildcat players were named Big 10 Distinguished Scholars. Refreshing to see.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 1, 2020 11:20:15 GMT -5
I recall reading some years ago, so the situation may have changed, that in a study Northwestern was shown to have the toughest admission standards for athletes of any of the FBS schools that are regarded as high academic. Stanford may have been second.
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