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Post by kot1972 on Dec 22, 2020 19:10:32 GMT -5
I have read a lot of comments on threads tracing the present careers of Caleb Green and Jacob Grandison. They are nice kids and represented our school well but some I believe have exaggerated their impact on HC Basketball and its future. I throw out some remarks below to stir up a conversation.
1.Both players in my opinion were good to average players and probably would have scored a 1,000 points at HC if they stayed. But I don't believe either player was an All Patriot League 1st team selection and may or may not have been selected as such before their graduation. They were the best of the group they played with ( although maybe not as good as Joe Pridgen), which is a more a comment on the overall status of the program Nelson inherited than the skills of these 2 players in comparison to the rest of the league.
2.When I have scouted high school basketball, I always tried to find the best player in the game ( which was usually easily identifiable) concluding he probably could compete at the next level. Watching Caleb and Jacob play, they would have their moments in specific games but generally they were just solid complimentary players. They never reminded me of our great players like guards Adams, Grentz, McAuley, Meade and Thomas or wings like Grayson, Vicens, Witts, Hamilton, Simmons, and Miller. My point being that for most of the last 10 years Holy Cross has lacked great players clearly caused by the recruiting performance and lack of player development put forth by our coaches.
3.I am tired of our team being competitively embarrassing: Patriot League or otherwise. As Coach Chesney has proven: have an engaging personality, work hard and produce results and the players will come. I think this profile is most HC fans want for the BB program: to be in the top 3 teams in the Patriot League each year and be able to scare if not defeat the UMass, BC, Providence, Vermont, Siena, St. John's teams when we play them. It all starts with the coach and the players he recruits and develops.
4.I think Coach Nelson has the right game plan. His new recruits are bigger , thicker and probably faster than our recent groups. I am not sure if he can coach yet( I throw out last year) but have high hopes.
In conclusion, I wish Caleb Green and Jacob Grandison well at their new schools. However, I think their departure was just part of a necessary housecleaning to restore our program to the competitive level we desire. We would welcomed them staying but in reality we just need better players. This process will take some time.
Merry Christmas to all !
KOT72
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Post by HC92 on Dec 22, 2020 20:00:00 GMT -5
Good post, KOT. I don’t think either leaving impacted our chances of winning a PL title over their expected time here but may have helped accelerate our progress toward that goal down the road by allowing us to start the rebuild more quickly. Good kids, good players. Would not have won a PL title during their time here had they stayed. And that’s really the only goal that matters. If Nelson can coach, we may be competing as soon as next year. If he can’t, then we’ll be discussing another new coach in 3-4 years. Hoping for the best.
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Post by possum on Dec 22, 2020 21:14:25 GMT -5
Agree with the premise that Grandison and Green were decent players and probably the best of a highly overrated class but neither was a game changer that would have led us to the upper echelon of the PL. Hopefully Nelson has used the extra scholarships wisely to bring in higher level players because if it's more of the same old same old we are screwed.
Kot although nice players would not put Grentz and McAuley on the same level as the others you've listed.
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Post by Ignutz on Dec 22, 2020 23:23:40 GMT -5
Agree with the premise that Grandison and Green were decent players and probably the best of a highly overrated class but neither was a game changer that would have led us to the upper echelon of the PL. Hopefully Nelson has used the extra scholarships wisely to bring in higher level players because if it's more of the same old same old we are screwed. Kot although nice players would not put Grentz and McAuley on the same level as the others you've listed. McAuley was certainly not going to grab a lot if attention for his play, but he was as steady as any of the listed names (or more so). On the subject of names, how are Potter and Doran not on the list? |
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 23, 2020 1:13:21 GMT -5
Would Potter be considered a post player rather than a wing? Excellent post.
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Post by trimster on Dec 23, 2020 10:28:07 GMT -5
I have read a lot of comments on threads tracing the present careers of Caleb Green and Jacob Grandison. They are nice kids and represented our school well but some I believe have exaggerated their impact on HC Basketball and its future. I throw out some remarks below to stir up a conversation. 1.Both players in my opinion were good to average players and probably would have scored a 1,000 points at HC if they stayed. But I don't believe either player was an All Patriot League 1st team selection and may or may not have been selected as such before their graduation. They were the best of the group they played with ( although maybe not as good as Joe Pridgen), which is a more a comment on the overall status of the program Nelson inherited than the skills of these 2 players in comparison to the rest of the league. 2.When I have scouted high school basketball, I always tried to find the best player in the game ( which was usually easily identifiable) concluding he probably could compete at the next level. Watching Caleb and Jacob play, they would have their moments in specific games but generally they were just solid complimentary players. They never reminded me of our great players like guards Adams, Grentz, McAuley, Meade and Thomas or wings like Grayson, Vicens, Witts, Hamilton, Simmons, and Miller. My point being that for most of the last 10 years Holy Cross has lacked great players clearly caused by the recruiting performance and lack of player development put forth by our coaches. 3.I am tired of our team being competitively embarrassing: Patriot League or otherwise. As Coach Chesney has proven: have an engaging personality, work hard and produce results and the players will come. I think this profile is most HC fans want for the BB program: to be in the top 3 teams in the Patriot League each year and be able to scare if not defeat the UMass, BC, Providence, Vermont, Siena, St. John's teams when we play them. It all starts with the coach and the players he recruits and develops. 4.I think Coach Nelson has the right game plan. His new recruits are bigger , thicker and probably faster than our recent groups. I am not sure if he can coach yet( I throw out last year) but have high hopes. In conclusion, I wish Caleb Green and Jacob Grandison well at their new schools. However, I think their departure was just part of a necessary housecleaning to restore our program to the competitive level we desire. We would welcomed them staying but in reality we just need better players. This process will take some time. Merry Christmas to all ! KOT72 With regard to #3, if we can't be competitive in the Patriot League, we might as well give up the ghost and approach the NESCAC about membership. Wallowing near the bottom of D1 basketball is not what Holy Cross basketball should be about. Like everyone else on this board, I am really hoping Brett Nelson gets this ship turned around. |
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Post by nhteamer on Dec 23, 2020 11:15:18 GMT -5
Not sure, but maybe I've said this before: the ONLY way out of our invisiblity is to go play great teams wherever and whenever they want.
We wax nostalgic about players from 40, 50, 70 (!) years ago. No one younger than Billy Packer and Bill Raftery know who we are.
It's the ONLY way.
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Post by HC92 on Dec 23, 2020 11:27:11 GMT -5
I think we should:
1. Get much better quickly.
2. Play some nationally relevant teams OOC once we are good enough to be reasonably competitive. The trick is to lock in the games right before they figure out we’ve gotten good enough to possibly beat them.
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Post by timholycross on Dec 23, 2020 11:28:33 GMT -5
Every major in NE/Metro NY (Big East, ACC, A10, Big 10, Northeastern U) that will play us we should play. It will be on their terms, but there's histories with all of them, so why not take advantage of that?
Harvard & Yale because they are both good.
2 or 3 in addition to those that are loss leaders, but, what the heck, it's basketball and they help recruiting. A decent PL team is not going to lose to a ranked team by an absurd score as would happen in women's ball.
A few others, local, of any caliber; because no matter what your philosophy is; the "anytime/anywheres" are much tougher to get than they were 20-30 years ago.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Dec 23, 2020 11:57:19 GMT -5
Not sure, but maybe I've said this before: the ONLY way out of our invisiblity is to go play great teams wherever and whenever they want. We wax nostalgic about players from 40, 50, 70 (!) years ago. No one younger than Billy Packer and Bill Raftery know who we are. It's the ONLY way. Part of the way. If we beat everyone we play too, we'll be in good shape. We need to consistently defeat all the opponents before us, or at least perform admirably, respectably, capably, before we go higher. |
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Post by nhteamer on Dec 23, 2020 12:11:46 GMT -5
won't get the players to win big in any league unless they think they will get a chance to walk into a gym to play an opponent whom everyone knows.
They won't come if at our best we sweep Colgate, BU, etc., etc.
Ask any former great player if they would come with only a chance to win the PL; they wouldn't have.
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Post by purplehaze on Dec 23, 2020 12:21:46 GMT -5
Recruiting, recruiting and more recruiting
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Post by nhteamer on Dec 23, 2020 12:31:50 GMT -5
to play only our PL level opponents?
Invisible, invisible, invisible!
I've posted the same approach on this Board since it's inception; I've voiced it for 40 years.
How have all the approaches other than the one I have proposed worked out?
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Post by Tom on Dec 23, 2020 12:41:41 GMT -5
won't get the players to win big in any league unless they think they will get a chance to walk into a gym to play an opponent whom everyone knows. They won't come if at our best we sweep Colgate, BU, etc., etc. Ask any former great player if they would come with only a chance to win the PL; they wouldn't have. I haven't paid any attention in the last few years, but the few former players I ha social media contact with often had profile pictures of them in a game vs a P5 school. That tells me that some of them took pride in having played in those games, even if they were losses |
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Post by nhteamer on Dec 23, 2020 12:50:18 GMT -5
not Sacred Heart?
I think what makes most of you posters hate my posts is that it just pisses you off that I'm right.
Frankly, it saddens me that I'm right.
I'd rather we all be posting about the upcoming St Johns game.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 23, 2020 13:04:56 GMT -5
won't get the players to win big in any league unless they think they will get a chance to walk into a gym to play an opponent whom everyone knows. They won't come if at our best we sweep Colgate, BU, etc., etc. Ask any former great player if they would come with only a chance to win the PL; they wouldn't have. Well, to be fair, most of the greats came with no chance to win any league at all for many years. |
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Post by nhteamer on Dec 23, 2020 13:17:38 GMT -5
they came to play on a NATIONAL stage.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Dec 23, 2020 13:25:31 GMT -5
Teamer, I don't think you're wrong, you're just putting the cart before the horse. It's awesome to play at Duke. To play at Michigan. To play at Syracuse. To play at Oregon. To play at UCLA. To play at Kentucky. I think if you wave those games in front of a recruit, it can be a great carrot. But I'm willing to bet that the player, even for a fraction of a second, has a glimmer of hope that maybe-- JUST MAYBE-- they can pull off the upset. At least make it a close game.
We're getting WAXED to the tune of 3 or 4 wins a season against your derided Patriot League opponents, so what will happen when if/when we DO get the games against those marquee programs? We'll lose by 50? 60? 100? Is that what any of these players would be so eager to do, as you posit? I would say, "no."
I only said consistently dominating our PL brethren is the start. Folks should come here knowing we are the cream of the crop: facilities, coaching, environment, support, development, tools, training, academics, life opportunities, in the Patriot League. That should be our goal because when we get there, the other things like NCAA appearances, games in nationally-known OOC tournaments, paid games against major programs, and the like will be respectable affairs.
Saying that I can get any number of interested boxing recruits to get the snot beat out of them by Tyson or Klitchko and be a laughingstock is not a draw for a recruit.
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Post by nhteamer on Dec 23, 2020 13:33:47 GMT -5
We've tried your way; hasn't worked
Try mine
I'll try again. Players who are good enough to wax the PL opponents will not (don't) come if they don't occassionally play on a national stage.
How many more years/decades are you willing to give the "dominate the PL" approach.
IT DOESN'T WORK!
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Post by WCHC Sports on Dec 23, 2020 13:38:11 GMT -5
We haven't tried my way. The coaches have SUCKED. We have not had a commitment to a D1-level game day experience. We have not provided D1 facilities. We have not outperformed our own PEERS, where we are, right now. HC Athletics has not shown it can even SWIM let alone dominate in our small pond. Subjecting them to weekly shark attacks by capable predators will... magically have those talented players want to attend school and play ball here? Why wouldn't they go to the programs who beat the snot out of us?
Do you want to join the ACC as Worcester College and go 0-16 in league play and win two games a year from now until forever? You think you're going to get recruits? Come suck for four years but hey, you get to see cool programs? Why not just fold up the program and buy tickets to those games for 12 needy kids to go watch if you think it's that life changing of a big deal.
Kids want to play, but they also want to win. They don't want to play for a six cheerleader, 300 fan, 4 trumpeter-attended game, playing against said-derided schools, and lose by 18 points.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 23, 2020 13:46:04 GMT -5
Was curious from the last post. While points scored is not the absolute best measurement of a player's value, I decided to look at the top 25 scorers in HC basketball history and whether they played in the PL or not (started in the 1990-1991 season as all-sports conference):
#/Name/ Career Points/Years Played/PL or not
1. Ronnie Perry, 2,524 ('76-'80) - No
2. Rob Feaster, 2,224 ('91-'95) - Yes
3. Jack Foley, 2,185 ('59-'62) - No
4. Dwight Pernell, 1,891 ('86-90) - No
5. Tom Heinsohn, 1,789('53-'56) - No
6. Chris Potter 1,789 ('74-'78) - No
7. Bob Cousy, 1,775 ('46-'50) - No
8. Michael Vicens, 1,721 ('74-'78) - No
9. Keith Simmons, 1,654 ('03-'07) - Yes
10.Togo Palazzi, 1,633 ('51-'54) - No
11. Ed Siudut, 1,611 ('66-'69) - No
12. Kevin Hamilton, 1,492 ('02-'06) - Yes
13. Tim Szatko, 1,464 ('99-'03) - Yes
14. Devin Brown, 1,429 ('08-'12) - Yes
15. Garry Witts, 1,397 ('77-'81) - No
16. John Wendelken, 1,386 ('62-'65) - No
17. Dave Dudzinski, 1,366 ('10-'14) - Yes
18. Bob Kissane, 1,362 ('68-'71) - No
19. Bill Walker, 1,337 ('89-'93) - Yes last 3 years
20. Gene Doyle, 1,332 ('70-'73) - No
21. Malachi Alexander, 1,303 ('13-'17) - Yes
22. Bill Doran, 1,268 ('73-'74) - No
23. Tim Clifford, 1,246 ('04-'08) - Yes
24. Jim Nairus, 1,234 ('87-'91) - Yes, last year only
25. Tim Shea, 1,218 ('58-'61) - No
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Post by Tom on Dec 23, 2020 14:42:23 GMT -5
Trivia Time -
Name the last two players to play at HC for 4 years and play against fewer than 4 games against power conference opponents not named Boston College
side notes 1) They are classmates
2) for purposes of this question, I 'm calling Big East a basketball power conference
3) for purposed of this question, being on the roster counts as playing even if you don't get off the bench.
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Post by Chu Chu on Dec 23, 2020 14:45:24 GMT -5
It is possible to be a member of a less prominent league and still rise to national prominence and become a team that any of the big boys want to play. The current Number 1 team in the country, a small Jesuit school named Gonzaga, is just such a team. In the process, they have elevated the whole league. We should recruit and aspire to be the best! #GoCrossGo
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Post by trimster on Dec 23, 2020 14:58:21 GMT -5
It is possible to be a member of a less prominent league and still rise to national prominence and become a team that any of the big boys want to play. The current Number 1 team in the country, a small Jesuit school named Gonzaga, is just such a team. In the process, they have elevated the whole league. We should recruit and aspire to be the best! #GoCrossGo Being the second Gonzaga is so far from the vision and I use that term loosely, TPTB have had for Holy Cross athletics and basketball in particular, for the last 50 years, it ain't funny. We were all giddy that HC finally had a homecourt on campus that we didn't wonder, why isn't the Hart Center bigger? We found out 3-4 years later. Being a player in D1 hoops wasn't the plan. |
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 23, 2020 15:47:26 GMT -5
Chu, despite (or because?) Fr. McF spent time at Gonzaga, he had nothing but disdain for their basketball program.
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