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Post by Xmassader on Dec 23, 2020 16:45:08 GMT -5
ChuChu It’s all about the “want to”. In the ‘99 NCAA Tournament, when Gonzaga first burst onto the scene as a Cinderella story under Dan Monson with Casey Calvary et al., not many had heard of Gonzaga (other than notes about alums Bing Crosby and John Stockton) and the Zags had made only one previous NCAA appearance (a loss in ‘95). Since then they have been in the tournament almost every year and have become a national power. In the early ‘80s, I attended an HC-Xavier game in Cincinnati (which HC won) and our program was clearly ahead of their’s, both at the time and historically. Since then Xavier’s program has flourished and the Musketeers now have a 10K plus on campus arena and a spot in the Big East (one that in the late ‘70s may have had HC’s name on it—calling hc87😊)
HC has consistently chosen a different path—choices that have vexed many over the years and pleased others. With a new president on the horizon and the will/“want to” to change course, HC might be able to achieve greater heights than it has since 1990. However, even if HC decided to change course, the task would be markedly more difficult to accomplish than it would have been 40 yrs. ago at the inception of the Big East or even 20 yrs. ago when Gonzaga began its rise to prominence.
IMO, the keys are the institutional will to change and the ability to find the right coach (think Monson, Few, Prosser, Gillen, Matta) whose performance can outstrip the limitations of facilities, league, etc. (someone like RW) and garner some OOC wins against Power 6 and A-10 competition. Without both, significant progress is unlikely to occur but, with both, I think it’s possible. Hopefully, HCBN is the right coach. Then the question becomes “Will the new president and the BOT opt to pursue a path more likely to lead the HC hoop program to the kind of success achieved in the last 20-40 yrs. by fellow Jesuit institutions Gonzaga and Xavier?”
We’ll see.
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Post by trimster on Dec 23, 2020 18:14:22 GMT -5
ChuChu It’s all about the “want to”. In the ‘99 NCAA Tournament, when Gonzaga first burst onto the scene as a Cinderella story under Dan Monson with Casey Calvary et al., not many had heard of Gonzaga (other than notes about alums Bing Crosby and John Stockton) and the Zags had made only one previous NCAA appearance (a loss in ‘95). Since then they have been in the tournament almost every year and have become a national power. In the early ‘80s, I attended an HC-Xavier game in Cincinnati (which HC won) and our program was clearly ahead of their’s, both at the time and historically. Since then Xavier’s program has flourished and the Musketeers now have a 10K plus on campus arena and a spot in the Big East (one that in the late ‘70s may have had HC’s name on it—calling hc87😊) HC has consistently chosen a different path—choices that have vexed many over the years and pleased others. With a new president on the horizon and the will/“want to” to change course, HC might be able to achieve greater heights than it has since 1990. However, even if HC decided to change course, the task would be markedly more difficult to accomplish than it would have been 40 yrs. ago at the inception of the Big East or even 20 yrs. ago when Gonzaga began its rise to prominence. IMO, the keys are the institutional will to change and the ability to find the right coach (think Monson, Few, Prosser, Gillen, Matta) whose performance can outstrip the limitations of facilities, league, etc. (someone like RW) and garner some OOC wins against Power 6 and A-10 competition. Without both, significant progress is unlikely to occur but, with both, I think it’s possible. Hopefully, HCBN is the right coach. Then the question becomes “Will the new president and the BOT opt to pursue a path more likely to lead the HC hoop program to the kind of success achieved in the last 20-40 yrs. by fellow Jesuit institutions Gonzaga and Xavier?” We’ll see. Well-said. I think the only chance TPTB change the course of Holy Cross Basketball is if they have the vision to get the Holy Cross name out there to try and combat the declining enrollment numbers almost all colleges are seeing. They may come to the conclusion the way to do that is through a very successful men's basketball program done in the right way of course. Absent that, I don't see it happening.
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Post by hchoops on Dec 23, 2020 18:16:25 GMT -5
One problem is what league does this new look HC team play in. And consider the original problem with the Big East invite—what about football ?
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Post by efg72 on Dec 23, 2020 18:24:45 GMT -5
Creative minds with purpose can make something positive become a reality.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 23, 2020 18:37:32 GMT -5
Perhaps we need a "Ted Lasso" coach? Not the most knowledgeable but Mr. Positive. Hilarious if you haven't watched it.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 23, 2020 18:49:35 GMT -5
Perhaps we need a "Ted Lasso" coach? Not the most knowledgeable but Mr. Positive. Hilarious if you haven't watched it. Best show during Covid and beyond As KOT 1972, a classmate I believe, offered for conversation the jury is out if Nelson can do the x and o’s So we might already have our version of Lasso, may we be so blessed iv he is that person
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Post by kot1972 on Dec 23, 2020 19:04:38 GMT -5
x,
I think your comments are a spot on overview of our situation. We, as a college(AD + BOT), need to consistently hire the right coaches and then replace them with adequate newcomers ( the Xavier model is quite impressive). Chesney and Nelson are probably short termers with bigger aspirations. Maybe we get lucky and one stays for a long time but their visions in their sport and their future goals have been shared with Marcus Blossom and hopefully he can use this info to recognize the right drive in his future hires. Our track record in FB + BB hires had not been very good for a long, long time.
My frustration of the last 10 years has been we have been clearly outclassed in BB by Top 250 teams, let alone Top 100 programs. Being non competitive against the Patriot League has been horrible but anyone attending the OOC games could see how physically overwhelmed we were by the likes of UMass, URI, Siena, Providence etc. Many of these opponents weren't even good. The Patriot League was not unexpected. We had recruited the wrong players and couldn't develop the ones we had.
I think our OOC is just about right, right now. 1 or 2 Big East foes, regional games against old New England rivals, a game or 2 vs Top 20 program and fillers with the CAA and MAAC conference is fine. Once we win a little more regularly, we can spread our wings and schedule better Christmas tournaments or bigger road games. How do Davidson, Rhode Island, Belmont, and St. Mary's play such attractive schedules? To me, it happens because of their winning histories.
As you so clearly state, Holy Cross has to decide if they want to make the commitment to be athletically better. They will need to hire well, help the coaches with admissions, and spend accordingly ( the Luth Center is great start). If the administration agrees with the Crossports' members that winning athletics is a priority, our future can be bright. Otherwise, our athletic future may only approve marginally.
Really looking forward to BB season. Hope it comes off. Hope Dave's Christmas poem is on the verge of release.
Merry to all!
KOT72
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Post by trimster on Dec 23, 2020 19:08:21 GMT -5
One problem is what league does this new look HC team play in. And consider the original problem with the Big East invite—what about football ? Associate PL member in football, the rest elsewhere. That is down the road. For starters, be great right where you are. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 23, 2020 19:27:04 GMT -5
Covid is going to create opportunities, and most will drive schools back to regional competition, despite the other financial incentives.
PP and the rest might disagree, but we might very well be in a covid related world for another year or two. These vaccines are another public health tool, but not an answer. To me, and maybe me alone, they fit the following:
Wash, rinse, distance, mask, and vaccinate-- and repeat
Statistically it will show benefits, but those scientists and doctors out there plessespeak up-- antibodies don't kill the virus, but T cells do. The solution is likely another year away.
The antibodies will block and that is a good thing, but not a silver bullet.
Dr Patrick Soon-Shiong and Dr Thomas Rademacher are leaders in tcell research
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Post by Chu Chu on Dec 23, 2020 20:37:22 GMT -5
Chu, despite (or because?) Fr. McF spent time at Gonzaga, he had nothing but disdain for their basketball program. I have talked with Fr McFarland in the past about that. You are correct that he thought they had too much emphasis on their basketball program at Gonzaga, and that was not his vision for Holy Cross. But my God, what they have achieved is amazing. I used live in Spokane not far from the campus. The transformation of their physical plant, relationship to the community and ability to attract applicants is off the charts. Even Fr McFarland told me that after coming to Holy Cross he was impressed by how many people knew Gonzaga as a result of basketball that would otherwise have never heard of it.
My point previously is simply that there is no artificial limit imposed on us as to how well we can do or what we can achieve as a smaller school in a less prominent league. Those limits are in our mind. Basketball has always been one of the sports that serves up giant killers from time to time. I think that we should aspirate be one of them! I may be seeing the world through rose colored glasses, but I am anticipating a lot of improvement in the next few years. We have a good brand, we offer a world class education, wonderful facilities, a great new AD who has been augmenting our PR and media accessibility, and now a new coach who is getting to put his plan in place with guys he has recruited. Since we are a Div 1 school, and can go to the National Tournament, we should aspire to win the damn thing again!
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Post by Crucis#1 on Dec 23, 2020 20:38:55 GMT -5
The Institutions mentioned above do not have a combination of Football and or M&W Ice Hockey (except for UMass) in their programs. They are also larger in enrollment than HC. Approximately one quarter ( 28.5%) of the enrolled students at HC are participating in athletics. In 23 sports a total of 862 student athletes: 469 men and 393 women. HC Enrollment is approximately 3,020. (Pre Covid) . The comparison made are with institutions that solely focus more or less on one niche sport to elevate their profile. The exceptions, i.e. Stanford. Princeton, Yale, Harvard, Williams that have robust programs in multiple sports.
I for one would not want to see HC eliminate any of our current teams. They all contribute to the HC community academically, culturally and vibrancy.
In order to succeed, we must continue to provide the financial resources to hire the correct staff that can do more regarding their vision, identification of talent and recruiting on a national and international basis. Once they are on campus, each student athlete’s talent should be maximized through enrichment programs to help them succeed.
In addition to aspire to winning league, regional, and and national championship in various teams and individual sports, admissions, the academic department chairs, and the athletic administration should be recruiting students who will raise the profile of HC. An essential goal should be to recruit Rhodes, Marshall, Fulbright and Knight-Hennessy scholars in each class.
We have all been proud of the academic rigor that HC has provided. Each November, when the Rhodes Scholar class is published, I read hoping to see that a Holy Cross student athlete has made the list.
The motto of “Become More” should be emphasized that these are our objectives and goals. Holding accountable Department Chairpersons by measuring HC success in Post Graduate Fellowships, Job placement with Fortune 100 companies, US News National Rankings, in each ranking cohort, and Service to Community through JVC, Peace Corp, Teach Through America, etc; are essential for HC to raise our national and international profile. While winning national championships is laudable, Holy Cross national placement in Fellowships,National Rankings, Job Placement and Community Service is essential to The Institution Integrity.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 23, 2020 21:02:45 GMT -5
And look at Georgetown and what athletics/Big East hoops have done to propel it forward Not as a catholic institution Not as a Jesuit institution Not as a regional leader in academics Not as a national leader academically But It is a globally recognized institution And A once commuter school in Chestnut Hill isn't that far behind
With all of that before us does this mean for us??
How do we make the Holy Cross experience sustainable in the future for our kids, grand kids and those other bright stars?
The decisions might be unpleasant for some temporarily, but they might be reality for others.
What does the school/Board need to do in this decade so Holy Cross improves, thrives and survives?
If we don't move the betting money to the sports box I believe divine intervention might be required.
Most of this board is on the back nine of life yet we can make a difference and have an impact.
I believe the triumvirate of Blossom, Chesney and Nelson are trying to figure this out, but they will need the help of those who are or who have made significant investments in the future-our friends, classmates and lperhaps some on this board
Ok take your shots as it will keep KOT’s post alive through opening weekend
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 24, 2020 2:58:33 GMT -5
Big East Basketball and the national championship have certainly been positive for Georgetown and made them known to the masses, but even if they were D-3, they would be highly regarded as elite for their academic areas of excellence such as law and diplomacy like Johns Hopkins is for their excellence in medicine.
I think Gonzaga is a closer example of what excellence in MBB could do for HC. I wonder if HC even recruited Patrick Ewing when he was forty miles down the pike at Cambridge Rindge and Latin? We had good teams then.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 24, 2020 5:18:12 GMT -5
Wasn’t Ewing the player who was, to put it politely, lacking the academic fortitude that caused Fr. Brooks to get into a dispute with John Thompson on the role that athletics plays at a college
Would be shocked if Ewing was recruited by Holy Cross.
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Post by Tom on Dec 24, 2020 8:14:41 GMT -5
Trivia Time - Name the last two players to play at HC for 4 years and play against fewer than 4 games against power conference opponents not named Boston College side notes 1) They are classmates 2) for purposes of this question, I 'm calling Big East a basketball power conference 3) for purposed of this question, being on the roster counts as playing even if you don't get off the bench. Not much interest, but you would have to go back to Andrew Beinert and Josh Jones to find a group that didn't average a power opponent a year only playing 3 in 4 years (Wake Forest, NC St and Maryland). Not great lately but Clay LeSann still got 4 in. Going not too far back, Champion/Alexander/Thommpson/Husek played 2 power games each year(South Carolina, Syracuse (2), Kansas, Oregon, Pitt, North Carolina, and Michigan) My point: It's not like HC doesn't play any major opponents.
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Post by Tom on Dec 24, 2020 8:29:43 GMT -5
Wasn’t Ewing the player who was, to put it politely, lacking the academic fortitude that caused Fr. Brooks to get into a dispute with John Thompson on the role that athletics plays at a college Would be shocked if Ewing was recruited by Holy Cross. I have no idea if Fr Brooks and John Thompson had any disputes or even any conversations. That being said, Ewing was kind of the poster child for the athlete that was off the academic bell curve for his school. I do think it was that kind of situation that Fr Brooks thought was sacrificing a school's integrity
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Post by possum on Dec 24, 2020 9:28:30 GMT -5
The guy who slammed the brakes on any attempt to upgrade HC athletics probably should have kept his nose out of other people's business.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 24, 2020 10:33:37 GMT -5
Big East Basketball and the national championship have certainly been positive for Georgetown and made them known to the masses, but even if they were D-3, they would be highly regarded as elite for their academic areas of excellence such as law and diplomacy like Johns Hopkins is for their excellence in medicine. I think Gonzaga is a closer example of what excellence in MBB could do for HC. I wonder if HC even recruited Patrick Ewing when he was forty miles down the pike at Cambridge Rindge and Latin? We had good teams then. What is your assessment of what excellence in men's basketball has done for Gonzaga? In what ways has it benefitted the school?
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Post by timholycross on Dec 24, 2020 15:48:34 GMT -5
Wasn’t Ewing the player who was, to put it politely, lacking the academic fortitude that caused Fr. Brooks to get into a dispute with John Thompson on the role that athletics plays at a college Would be shocked if Ewing was recruited by Holy Cross. The conversation cited by John Feinstein in The Last Amateurs had nothing to do with Patrick Ewing.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 24, 2020 15:55:51 GMT -5
I'll defer to your greater expertise . . . . . or memory. Not sure I even got that from Feinstein's book which is down in the basement with my other Holy Cross-related books. My guess is Feinstein wouldn't have named names anyway. Certainly not a successful NBA player and any mention in a book would be generic in nature. I may have picked it up from a secondary source in the Hart Center.
In any case, I don't believe Ewing was on Holy Cross' recruiting radar regardless of his basketball talent which was prodigious.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 24, 2020 16:29:41 GMT -5
You are right. There was no interest there from either party.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 24, 2020 18:49:32 GMT -5
Big East Basketball and the national championship have certainly been positive for Georgetown and made them known to the masses, but even if they were D-3, they would be highly regarded as elite for their academic areas of excellence such as law and diplomacy like Johns Hopkins is for their excellence in medicine. I think Gonzaga is a closer example of what excellence in MBB could do for HC. I wonder if HC even recruited Patrick Ewing when he was forty miles down the pike at Cambridge Rindge and Latin? We had good teams then. What is your assessment of what excellence in men's basketball has done for Gonzaga? In what ways has it benefitted the school? Chu Chu put it best when he said: "The transformation of their physical plant, relationship with the community and ability to attract applicants is off the charts." I also have a relative who worked at St. Mary's of California, a WCC league mate of Gonzaga, during and after their sweet sixteen run a few years ago. She said the enthusiasm was palpable and every unit of measurement such as applications, donations, sales of apparel and swag, attendance, etc. improved afterwards. Becoming a world renown elite academic University like Georgetown, especially with no graduate schools, seems like a steeper climb than turning around the M&W BB programs and making runs in the tournament. Not that either is easy.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 24, 2020 19:02:29 GMT -5
Let's not forget Georgetown;'s role in the Exorcist. That got tgemn international exposure all by itself.
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Post by rickii on Dec 27, 2020 15:24:10 GMT -5
Wasn’t Ewing the player who was, to put it politely, lacking the academic fortitude that caused Fr. Brooks to get into a dispute with John Thompson on the role that athletics plays at a college Would be shocked if Ewing was recruited by Holy Cross. I’ve told this story before.... Blaney recruited Ewing....for about 45 minutes. He called me to go with him to meet Ewing for the alum angle ( was permitted then ). Said yes but George called back saying he’d just gotten Ewing’s transcript and the visit was off. Per George there was ZERO chance of getting him admitted to HC. That was that!
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 27, 2020 17:23:28 GMT -5
As Georgetown showed (and Niagara for Calvin Murphy), there is a college somewhere for everyone regardless of academics.
(A former student of mine had Patrick as her on campus job. She picked him up at his dorm and made sure he got to all of his classes.)
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