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Post by timholycross on Jan 26, 2021 16:34:55 GMT -5
2.) no one would put themselves through the process of changing genders and all that entails (ridicule, loss of family and friends, surgery, hormones, sometimes violence) unless they have to. Following up on RSG, I do not think the phrase "gender identity" used in the order implies or requires surgery or hormones. That being said, the other factors are very real. From a practical standpoint, I do not think a lot of women are going to lose out on college basketball scholarships because they lost out to a genetic male that identifies as female Actually, I'd love to see some person fitting that description go up against UConn, given that they fine tune their game against men on a regular basis. How could Geno protest?
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Post by HC13 on Jan 26, 2021 18:46:39 GMT -5
You are aware that practicing against male players is a pretty common practice and has been for a while, including at Holy Cross. Do I think Geno might have an issue if a 6'9 245 lbs player showed up to play, methinks yes.
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Post by timholycross on Jan 26, 2021 19:13:42 GMT -5
Didn't realize HC did that; the general practice has been mentioned a bunch of times on this board and no one ever offered that information. Thanks.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Jan 26, 2021 19:22:49 GMT -5
I understand that not all trans people get hormones or have surgery, although many do. One trans woman I know had expensive and painful surgery in Boston to make the contours of her face more feminine. My only point is that every trans person I have known, read of, or heard about has faced some significant challenges but nonetheless has persevered because of their certainty that they are being true to who they really are. I think they should be treated with respect. I also understand that this does not settle the difficult questions posed in the preceding posts.
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 26, 2021 19:26:09 GMT -5
I would agree that transgender people have a tough road now and in the future and all of them certainly deserve respect.
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Post by bfoley82 on Jan 26, 2021 21:39:18 GMT -5
You are aware that practicing against male players is a pretty common practice and has been for a while, including at Holy Cross. Do I think Geno might have an issue if a 6'9 245 lbs player showed up to play, methinks yes. This isn't new at all as the walk-on men's players at UNH 20 years ago would always join the women's program as "practice" players
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Post by alum on Jan 27, 2021 8:44:03 GMT -5
I believe George Washington University Women's team had a Trans on it's team 10 yrs. ago. This ruling is a total slap in the face to legit women. Without considering whether transwomen should be allowed to compete on women's athletic teams because they might have an advantage, do others here agree with fz that transwomen are not "legit women?" Another point: I coached a high school rec basketball team several years ago. One of my players has transitioned and now is a woman. Did his participation on the team deny a male player of the opportunity to play? Should somebody be mad about it?
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 27, 2021 8:49:59 GMT -5
A trans woman is not a biological woman.
I don’t want to speak for fz, but I’m guessing that’s what he was not very eloquently getting at.
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Post by Tom on Jan 27, 2021 9:07:11 GMT -5
Straying a bit off of sports, but I suppose it kind of comes down to what your definition of gender is. Some people say it is defined by what a person identifies as. Some people say it is defined by certain features of anatomy. Some people say it is defined by XX and XY chromosomes. No matter what definition, there is probably a better adjective than legit
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Post by hcpride on Jan 27, 2021 15:39:20 GMT -5
A trans woman is not a biological woman. I don’t want to speak for fz, but I’m guessing that’s what he was not very eloquently getting at. You should have seen Navratilova's comments on the issue...quite graphic ...of course she was labelled transphobic for speaking her mind (like she is afraid of anything)...and then cancelled by various LGBTQ organizations...then she said she had thought about it again...and proceeded to double down on her comments. One of the funniest and most revealing episodes in modern culture. www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/martina-navratilova-dropped-lgbtq-nonprofit-after-transphobic-comment-n973626
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Post by alum on Jan 27, 2021 16:23:51 GMT -5
Billy Jean King disagrees with Martina but I doubt that most young people who are competing today care a lot about what either of them have to say.
As I have noted above, the number of athletes involved is tiny. That is why I know that this is just a proxy war for those with bigger fish to fry. Those who feel cheated by having to compete against transgender women are represented by lawyers affiliated with groups that oppose all rights for non heterosexual Americans. They are faced off in court not by lawyers paid for by transgender women seeking to compete. Rather, the ACLU and Lambda Legal are involved either directly or as amici.
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Post by Tom on Jan 27, 2021 16:37:37 GMT -5
A trans woman is not a biological woman. I don’t want to speak for fz, but I’m guessing that’s what he was not very eloquently getting at. You should have seen Navratilova's comments on the issue...quite graphic ...of course she was labelled transphobic for speaking her mind (like she is afraid of anything)...and then cancelled by various LGBTQ organizations...then she said she had thought about it again...and proceeded to double down on her comments. One of the funniest and most revealing episodes in modern culture. www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/martina-navratilova-dropped-lgbtq-nonprofit-after-transphobic-comment-n973626Minor distinction, but, in the link, Martina makes reference to needing some level of hormones to compete as a transgender. This non-lawyer does not see that as a requirement of the executive order
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Post by longsuffering on Jan 27, 2021 22:51:37 GMT -5
Billy Jean King disagrees with Martina but I doubt that most young people who are competing today care a lot about what either of them have to say. As I have noted above, the number of athletes involved is tiny. That is why I know that this is just a proxy war for those with bigger fish to fry. Those who feel cheated by having to compete against transgender women are represented by lawyers affiliated with groups that oppose all rights for non heterosexual Americans. They are faced off in court not by lawyers paid for by transgender women seeking to compete. Rather, the ACLU and Lambda Legal are involved either directly or as amici. LAMBDA must hope they don't get confused with NAMBLA.
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Post by longsuffering on Jan 27, 2021 22:55:29 GMT -5
This issue will probably fade away as medical science allows people to be who they want to be and the rest of us get used to it as we get to know a few trans folks.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 27, 2021 23:49:32 GMT -5
Billy Jean King disagrees with Martina but I doubt that most young people who are competing today care a lot about what either of them have to say. As I have noted above, the number of athletes involved is tiny. That is why I know that this is just a proxy war for those with bigger fish to fry. Those who feel cheated by having to compete against transgender women are represented by lawyers affiliated with groups that oppose all rights for non heterosexual Americans. They are faced off in court not by lawyers paid for by transgender women seeking to compete. Rather, the ACLU and Lambda Legal are involved either directly or as amici. LAMBDA must hope they don't get confused with NAMBLA. I read an interesting book on an FBI agent infiltrating NAMBLA---really, really sick people.
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Post by longsuffering on Jan 28, 2021 0:51:45 GMT -5
LAMBDA must hope they don't get confused with NAMBLA. I read an interesting book on an FBI agent infiltrating NAMBLA---really, really sick people. Paul Shanley, a former Boston Priest who was convicted of child abuse was involved in that which was sickening. But I shouldn't confuse the issue with transgender which is above board, which is why I thought LAMBDA could have come up with a better acronym.
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Post by Tom on Jan 28, 2021 7:52:41 GMT -5
Time for me to show my age and get confused again. I thought lambda was a greek letter frequently used in mathematical functions. Of course I'm also the same guy, the first time I heard the phrase LBGT (which predated LBGTQ) asked what in the hell land based gas turbines had to so with the topic at hand
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Post by HC92 on Jan 28, 2021 8:16:12 GMT -5
1. It has been well understood and agreed that the biological differences between males and females warrant separate sports teams and it doesn’t seem like anyone thinks that should change.
2. Some biological males feel they were born in the wrong body and identify as females. Prior to surgery and hormones, those individuals have the same biological makeup as other biological males and therefore retain the same biological advantages as a group that led us to #1.
3. Prior to the EO and barring some state action, biological males who identify as females were able to play high school sports with other biological males so they have always had the opportunity to compete in the sport they love against those with the same biological makeup.
I struggle to understand the need to allow biological males to compete against biological females in high school sports and put the biological females at a disadvantage.
I am certain that being a transgender female in high school is as difficult a social situation as any of us can imagine. If I thought this action might help these girls socially, I might be in favor of it but I really can’t see this helping that situation in any way.
We have a lot smart and thoughtful people here who I am hoping can help me understand where I’m missing the greater good the EO is serving. Is the belief that this action helps normalize being transgender and will ultimately lead to greater social acceptance of transgender people? Or that it makes it easier for individual transgender people trying to find their place in a difficult world? Something else?
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Post by Tom on Jan 28, 2021 8:51:07 GMT -5
1. It has been well understood and agreed that the biological differences between males and females warrant separate sports teams and it doesn’t seem like anyone thinks that should change. 2. Some biological males feel they were born in the wrong body and identify as females. Prior to surgery and hormones, those individuals have the same biological makeup as other biological males and therefore retain the same biological advantages as a group that led us to #1. 3. Prior to the EO and barring some state action, biological males who identify as females were able to play high school sports with other biological males so they have always had the opportunity to compete in the sport they love against those with the same biological makeup. I struggle to understand the need to allow biological males to compete against biological females in high school sports and put the biological females at a disadvantage. I am certain that being a transgender female in high school is as difficult a social situation as any of us can imagine. If I thought this action might help these girls socially, I might be in favor of it but I really can’t see this helping that situation in any way. We have a lot smart and thoughtful people here who I am hoping can help me understand where I’m missing the greater good the EO is serving. Is the belief that this action helps normalize being transgender and will ultimately lead to greater social acceptance of transgender people? Or that it makes it easier for individual transgender people trying to find their place in a difficult world? Something else? Trying to tread carefully within the scope of the board. Our discussion as been focused on sports because this is a sports board. The executive order as linked above is about broader treatment and rights of people regardless of gender identity or sexual orientation,
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Post by HC92 on Jan 28, 2021 9:06:40 GMT -5
Definitely meant to keep the discussion to the costs and benefits of allowing transgender females to compete against biological females in high school and college sports. Tom is correct that the EO is a much broader document.
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Post by alum on Jan 28, 2021 9:10:15 GMT -5
As sometimes happens, discussions on this board send me down rabbit holes of internet research. Here is an interesting discussion of a corollary issue---what, if anything, should be done about intersex athletes. It also contains a discussion of the gender engineering in track and field in the 70s and 80s. www.iwm.at/publications/5-junior-visiting-fellows-conferences/vol-xxix/maren-behrensen-2/Some of the same fairness issues are at play in these cases as they are in the cases of trasnsgender athletes.
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Post by alum on Jan 28, 2021 9:15:18 GMT -5
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Post by hcpride on Jan 28, 2021 9:42:28 GMT -5
I don't think there has been a suggestion that kids should not compete in high school sports. I've noticed folks have little issue with a girl joining a boys high school baseball team or even a boys football or wrestling team. The assumption is the girl and her family know the risks and there is no perception her presence is a physical danger to the boys and/or unfairly tips the competitive scales. We've had that in all three sports at my little high school before. (Note: I am using the terms girl and boy in the traditional sense.) I guess I'm with Martina Navratilova and her former coach (Dr. Renee Richards) on this one in my concerns regarding safety in the contact sports and competitive advantages in the noncontact sports in the context of trans (if that is the right word) athletes. When those factors are nonissues (as one imagines they would ordinarily be given the wide selection of sports and the small number of trans athletes we are talking about ) I don't think anyone would want to prevent trans young people compete in sports. Suicide rates or no suicide rates. In my high school the idea of a sports team being awful and never winning a game is essentially a nonissue and (apparently) quite acceptable...but bring up player safety and unfair competitive advantage (whatever the context) you've got an issue.
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Post by HC92 on Jan 28, 2021 9:54:09 GMT -5
Is there any reason to believe that the reason they’re committing suicide is because they have to play sports against their biological peers? I suspect it’s far more complicated than that. If you told me it would reduce suicide rates, I’d definitely think that’s a strong benefit of the policy but I don’t think there’s any evidence to date that this would be so. In fact, in the absence of any scientifically valid study, I think one could make a strong argument this would make it worse.
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 28, 2021 9:55:23 GMT -5
One small side note...suicide is an issue for both transgender and gay/lesbian teens. Some communities have done a good job is directly addressing it (in Vermont, for one example) but more needs to be done. And, teens are not the group more at risk of suicide - that is s senior men (over 55 but younger than 80 - as of the early 21st century).
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