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Post by alum on Jan 28, 2021 10:09:11 GMT -5
Is there any reason to believe that the reason they’re committing suicide is because they have to play sports against their biological peers? I suspect it’s far more complicated than that. If you told me it would reduce suicide rates, I’d definitely think that’s a strong benefit of the policy but I don’t think there’s any evidence to date that this would be so. In fact, in the absence of any scientifically valid study, I think one could make a strong argument this would make it worse. I realize that these things are complex. I am certain that most kids want to fit it and I am certain that a kid who tells the other kids she has known since kindergarten that she is now a girl and not a boy probably worries about that more than most. I am willing to let that kid be on the girls track team if she wants. It is high school sports.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 28, 2021 10:25:03 GMT -5
Is there any reason to believe that the reason they’re committing suicide is because they have to play sports against their biological peers? I suspect it’s far more complicated than that. If you told me it would reduce suicide rates, I’d definitely think that’s a strong benefit of the policy but I don’t think there’s any evidence to date that this would be so. In fact, in the absence of any scientifically valid study, I think one could make a strong argument this would make it worse. I realize that these things are complex. I am certain that most kids want to fit it and I am certain that a kid who tells the other kids she has known since kindergarten that she is now a girl and not a boy probably worries about that more than most. I am willing to let that kid be on the girls track team if she wants. It is high school sports. At what age are you okay with a person transitioning?
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Post by Tom on Jan 28, 2021 11:03:24 GMT -5
I don't think there has been a suggestion that kids should not compete in high school sports. I've noticed folks have little issue with a girl joining a boys high school baseball team or even a boys football or wrestling team. The assumption is the girl and her family know the risks and there is no perception her presence is a physical danger to the boys and/or unfairly tips the competitive scales. We've had that in all three sports at my little high school before. (Note: I am using the terms girl and boy in the traditional sense.) I guess I'm with Martina Navratilova and her former coach (Dr. Renee Richards) on this one in my concerns regarding safety in the contact sports and competitive advantages in the noncontact sports in the context of trans (if that is the right word) athletes. When those factors are nonissues (as one imagines they would ordinarily be given the wide selection of sports and the small number of trans athletes we are talking about ) I don't think anyone would want to prevent trans young people compete in sports. Suicide rates or no suicide rates. In my high school the idea of a sports team being awful and never winning a game is essentially a nonissue and (apparently) quite acceptable...but bring up player safety and unfair competitive advantage (whatever the context) you've got an issue. No one has said anything about not letting trans kids play sports. The issue is about which team said kid is assigned to. Girls get to wrestle and or play football because there is no girls team. Girls generally are not allowed to play on the boys soccer or basketball team because a girls team exists. Hockey is a funny one which is changing. Girls used to be allowed to play high school hockey. With the rise of the womens sport many schools offer that. If a girl goes to a school that has a girl's hockey team, she can't play on the boys team. If her school doesn't have a girls team, she can play with the boys. Prior to the executive order this logic applied to trans kids based on their biological gender. A biological boy who identifies as a girl was allowed to play field hockey with the girls because there's no such thing as guys field hockey. Same kid was always allowed to play basketball, but was assigned to the boys team based on biological gender, not the gender the kid identified as.
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Post by alum on Jan 28, 2021 11:09:35 GMT -5
I realize that these things are complex. I am certain that most kids want to fit it and I am certain that a kid who tells the other kids she has known since kindergarten that she is now a girl and not a boy probably worries about that more than most. I am willing to let that kid be on the girls track team if she wants. It is high school sports. At what age are you okay with a person transitioning? I honestly don't have an answer to this but I think that high school kids who have worked through it for a while are certainly able to do it. I would imagine some people know right away and others don't until they are middle aged. I am pretty certain that it is a gradual process for most.
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Post by Tom on Jan 28, 2021 11:16:50 GMT -5
I don't know what all the aspects of transitioning are, but most doctors I know are opposed to transition hormone treatment for teens and pre-teens
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 28, 2021 11:19:45 GMT -5
I once had a boys bowling team with several girls on it (our school and league had no girls' teams). In face, my two "boys" captains were girls (and each averaged over 200 pins/game). At first they were not allowed to get recognition on the Girls' County All-Star Team because as members of a boys team, they were considered "boys." Their averages were not counted because the games were bowled in a boys league (even though there is no difference in the lanes or pins). Eventually they were allowed to be on the girls team since they were, biologically, girls. Three of them were first team girls all-county.
I can't what would have happened with a transgender bowler trying to bowl in a girls tournament. The boys on our team never objected to having girls compete and the team bonded very well. I think transgender athletes would have also been accepted. But, bowling is not a contact sport.
As I said early on...this is a situation that is difficult on many levels.
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Post by longsuffering on Jan 28, 2021 19:43:27 GMT -5
Did the opposing coaches bowl against each other like HS golf coaches golf together at matches? I always thought that was one of the best rackets going.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 28, 2021 19:44:42 GMT -5
I had heard this, but not read about the details. Obviously this would not apply to international competition. Based on your wording it suggests that this does not apply to the WNBA, LPGA, or women's tennis. (or any other relevant women's pro league). Women's professional leagues can handle their internal policies however they want. If the WNBA decided tomorrow to allow each team to roster one retired male NBA player, they could do that.
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 28, 2021 19:48:21 GMT -5
Did the opposing coaches bowl against each other like HS golf coaches golf together at matches? I always thought that was one of the best rackets going. No. First there is coaching to do and the coach needs to watch what is happening to make shot adjustments and possibly to substituter when needed.. Second, my bowling is terrible. Every bowler I coached posted regular scores that were better than my best. (PS: WE coaches did get to bowl from time to time at practice.)
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 28, 2021 19:52:15 GMT -5
Nothing to do with transgender, but in Massachusetts there is no such thing as high school field hockey for guys, so they are allowed to play with the girls. It is rare that any guys take advantage of this opportunity. About 10 years ago, there was a guy from Auburn who decided to play. He was the central MA scoring leader and had twice as many goals as the girl who finished 2nd in scoring This happens in other states too. Because there is no "Boys Field Hockey", this is allowed in NY too. Tends to be immigrants from India or Bangladesh where Men's Field Hockey is a big sport. Hundreds if not thousands of girls also suit up for their high school football teams, and not just to attempt publicity stunt extra points. Former NY Jet Nick Mangold's sister was actually a starting offensive linewoman in high school.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 29, 2021 1:11:54 GMT -5
Are there really thousands of girls playing on boys HS football teams?
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 29, 2021 7:50:03 GMT -5
There are certainly a few (perhaps hundreds across the country - always with publicity it seems), but nowhere near "thousands."
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Post by alum on Jan 29, 2021 8:13:26 GMT -5
Are there really thousands of girls playing on boys HS football teams? With 2 being a plural, there are, in fact, thousands of girls playing high school football, but not a lot of thousands. See this survey below from the NFHS which shows about 2404 at 1908 schools. That's about 2.5% of the total number of kids playing. We also don't know what percentage of the 2404 are on freshman or jayvee teams. www.nfhs.org/media/1020412/2018-19_participation_survey.pdf
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 29, 2021 9:14:32 GMT -5
Right you are, alum. I am both surprised and pleased that the country is moving forward in this way. Thank you for the correction and update.
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