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Post by hcpride on Jan 28, 2021 21:00:31 GMT -5
Schilling is not a surprise to me - he's got the numbers and no evidence of steroids but he's said some controversial things that might rub some writers the wrong way to the extent of influencing their votes (but not all writers as he did get over 71% of the votes.) Next year Ortiz will be very very interesting and might open the door up for a few other steroid guys.I've been saying for years that Ortiz will be the one to truly expose the hypocrisy of the writers. 100% he is getting in and HE SHUOLD GET IN. HE'S A HALL OF FAMER. Several years ago Edgar Martinez was inducted -- after years of being snubbed because he spent most of his career as a full-time DH. Because Ortiz faces the same dilemma, I believe the writers voted in Edgar in order to "grease the skids" for Big Papi. Now that the DH glass ceiling has been broken, only the "steroid using (or alleged steroid using) power hitter" glass ceiling remains. Remember Pedro Martinez took steroids and has already been voted in. Clemens unfortunately has been unable to follow his coattails. As ACTP said in the other thread, steroids are just an excuse for the writers to turn the HOF into a popularity contest. If people think you were a prick to the media, you ain't getting into the club. I was not aware Pedro was a steroid guy. When he was voted in the talk I recall was that he was NOT a steroid guy.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 28, 2021 23:11:08 GMT -5
My thoughts on this year's class: I view Schilling like I view Eli Manning in football. If not for his postseason pedigree, he'd be on the outside looking in. But his October performances with Arizona and Boston cement his should-be status in Cooperstown. Another thing that goes against Schilling -- he spent some of his most dominant years in the mid-to-late 1990's on bad Phillies teams. He was striking out 300 guys but going .500. If he spent those handful of seasons on the Mets, Braves or Astros, probably a different story. Vizquel is a Hall of Famer. Maybe best ever at the most important defensive position in the game. And he played until like age 45. As someone who used to hate on compilers, I am now a 32-year old adult softball/hoops player who has a ton of respect for pro athletes a decade older than me playing at the highest level in the world. And Vizquel DID have some productive offensive seasons -- he hit in the 2 hole on one of the best offenses in baseball history, the 1998/1999 Cleveland Indians. Being maybe the best ever with the glove combined with like 2,800 hits = HOF in my opinion. I think you need to take a closer look at Schilling's regular season record. He finished at 216-146 an impressive .597 W-L percentage and his ERA+ of 127 ties him with guys of the caliber of Bob Gibson and Tom Seaver. JAWS has him at #28 among all starting pitchers, ahead of #29 Mike Mussina, #30 Tom Glavine, and #31 Nolan Ryan Vizquel was a mighty fine shortstop, but "maybe best ever" would be tough to defend, in my opinion, with Ozzie Smith as a competitor and Mark Belanger as well. I'm assuming you are speaking strictly about defense.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Jan 28, 2021 23:44:28 GMT -5
Louie Aparicio
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 29, 2021 0:12:30 GMT -5
Okay-- I took a look at these four shortstops-Vizquel, Ozzie, Belanger, and Aparicio and compared them for range and fielding percentage against the average shortstop for their career period. Then I extended to 150 games and here's what I came up with
Compared to the average shortstop over 150 games for the years each of the players was in the league
Vizquel, who had apparently average range, would reach 1 more ball (i.e. he'd have one more fielding chance) but have 11 errors versus the average shortstop's 19 Aparicio, would reach 24 more balls and commit 22 errors versus the average shortstop's 28 Belanger would reach 34 more balls and commit 18 errors versus the average shortstop's 28 Smith would reach 66 more balls and commit 17 errors versus the average shortstop's 24
I saw Ozzie play many times during my years in Saint Louis--truly a magician with the glove
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Post by longsuffering on Jan 29, 2021 1:06:09 GMT -5
Smith, Aparichio and Vizquel were all great base stealers as well as slick fielders. With 167 SB vs 75 CS, opponents were able to Stop the Steal when Belanger occasionally got a hit.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 29, 2021 7:39:42 GMT -5
I've been saying for years that Ortiz will be the one to truly expose the hypocrisy of the writers. 100% he is getting in and HE SHUOLD GET IN. HE'S A HALL OF FAMER. Several years ago Edgar Martinez was inducted -- after years of being snubbed because he spent most of his career as a full-time DH. Because Ortiz faces the same dilemma, I believe the writers voted in Edgar in order to "grease the skids" for Big Papi. Now that the DH glass ceiling has been broken, only the "steroid using (or alleged steroid using) power hitter" glass ceiling remains. Remember Pedro Martinez took steroids and has already been voted in. Clemens unfortunately has been unable to follow his coattails. As ACTP said in the other thread, steroids are just an excuse for the writers to turn the HOF into a popularity contest. If people think you were a prick to the media, you ain't getting into the club. I was not aware Pedro was a steroid guy. When he was voted in the talk I recall was that he was NOT a steroid guy. Pedro Martinez was one of the 104 players who tested positive in 2003, the year test results were supposed to be anonymous. He never violated MLB drug policy after that point.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 29, 2021 7:41:33 GMT -5
Ozzie Smith highlights are absolutely insane. Unfortunately, I was just a little bit too young to appreciate his wizardry. My only memory of watching him play live on TV was the 1996 All Star Game. He retired at the end of that season.
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Post by alum on Jan 29, 2021 8:20:11 GMT -5
I was not aware Pedro was a steroid guy. When he was voted in the talk I recall was that he was NOT a steroid guy. Pedro Martinez was one of the 104 players who tested positive in 2003, the year test results were supposed to be anonymous. He never violated MLB drug policy after that point. I didn't remember that and I just poked around and can't find confirmation of this. Are you sure you aren't thinking of Pedro's Sox teammate, David Ortiz?
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Post by WorcesterGray on Jan 29, 2021 8:20:15 GMT -5
Smith, Aparichio and Vizquel were all great base stealers as well as slick fielders. With 167 SB vs 75 CS, opponents were able to Stop the Steal when Belanger occasionally got a hit. Aparicio led the AL in stolen bases each of his first nine seasons (1956-64), with an excellent 80%+ success rate. He was, unfortunately, also a poor lead-off hitter.
Year. Aparicio OBP (AL OBP)
1956 .311 (.341)
1957 .317 (.326) 1958 .309 (.322) 1959 .316 (.323) 1960 .323 (.328) 1961 .313 (.329) 1962 .280 (.325) 1963 .291 (.312) 1964 .324 (.315)
It was very appealing back then to idealize a speedy base-stealer as a top-of-the-order guy. But you can't steal first, and keystone-mate Nellie Fox (a terrible base-stealer) helped the White Sox significantly more offensively during his prime, out of the #2 spot.
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Post by timholycross on Jan 29, 2021 8:38:02 GMT -5
My memories of Aparicio are tainted by his largely mediocre final 3 years in the majors...with the Red Sox.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 29, 2021 8:48:05 GMT -5
Pedro Martinez was one of the 104 players who tested positive in 2003, the year test results were supposed to be anonymous. He never violated MLB drug policy after that point. I didn't remember that and I just poked around and can't find confirmation of this. Are you sure you aren't thinking of Pedro's Sox teammate, David Ortiz? www.thegazette.com/2009/06/30/heres-the-rumored-2003-mlb-steroid-listBoth Ortiz and Pedro Martinez are on the list. Their teammate Manny Ramirez is there as well. Of course, Manny has a lot of egg on his face as he went on to test positive 2 more times, both of which violated MLB drug policy and resulted in suspension.
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Post by alum on Jan 29, 2021 9:53:37 GMT -5
I didn't remember that and I just poked around and can't find confirmation of this. Are you sure you aren't thinking of Pedro's Sox teammate, David Ortiz? www.thegazette.com/2009/06/30/heres-the-rumored-2003-mlb-steroid-listBoth Ortiz and Pedro Martinez are on the list. Their teammate Manny Ramirez is there as well. Of course, Manny has a lot of egg on his face as he went on to test positive 2 more times, both of which violated MLB drug policy and resulted in suspension. Fair enough. I had not recalled that Pedro had been idenitifed, perhaps because nobody else seems to have published the list other than the Pittsburgh paper (or no other publication's copy of the list comes up quickly in an internet search.) It looks like he has repeatedly denied ever taking steroids and nobody seems to be challenging him on it. As to other players from the Sox, Manny failed repeatedly. I am sad to say that I am not terribly surprised about Nomar or Damon. As to the others, I don't have strong feelings about them anyway.
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Post by Tom on Jan 29, 2021 10:06:45 GMT -5
Did that 2003 list ever say what they tested positive for? As I recall it was never very specific.
We all know he took steroids, but I actually thought Ramirez did not test positive for steroids. My recollection was that he tested positive for a banned agent that masks steroids. Subtle point, but I think that 2003 report lumped everything together. Yes steroids, but also some not very honorable things that were not banned at the time and maybe not illegal
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 29, 2021 10:20:26 GMT -5
Did that 2003 list ever say what they tested positive for? As I recall it was never very specific. We all know he took steroids, but I actually thought Ramirez did not test positive for steroids. My recollection was that he tested positive for a banned agent that masks steroids. Subtle point, but I think that 2003 report lumped everything together. Yes steroids, but also some not very honorable things that were not banned at the time and maybe not illegal The 2003 list was supposed to be completely anonymous and penalty-free as the MLB Drug Policy officially kicked off in 2004. Therefore, little information is available as to who tested positive for what. The list was leaked in 2009 after an insider squealed on Alex Rodriguez. And yes I believe Manny tested positive for some kind of banned fertility drug that masked steroids.
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 29, 2021 15:11:12 GMT -5
So, did that result in a bunch of extra kids for him? Did multiple eggs of his drop? Just askin'.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 29, 2021 19:18:22 GMT -5
Fair enough. I had not recalled that Pedro had been idenitifed, perhaps because nobody else seems to have published the list other than the Pittsburgh paper (or no other publication's copy of the list comes up quickly in an internet search.) It looks like he has repeatedly denied ever taking steroids and nobody seems to be challenging him on it. As to other players from the Sox, Manny failed repeatedly. I am sad to say that I am not terribly surprised about Nomar or Damon. As to the others, I don't have strong feelings about them anyway. I'm fairly certain either MLB or the union dropped some coin to have the internet scrubbed.
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Post by bfoley82 on Jan 31, 2021 18:32:31 GMT -5
Cal Ripken Jr likely was a PED guy with his streak
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 31, 2021 18:46:50 GMT -5
Cal Ripken Jr likely was a PED guy with his streak Who knows. Innocent before proven guilty -- have to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. Remember that Gehrig managed to suit up 2,130 straight times I'm ASSUMING without PED's. A streak that would've lasted longer without ALS onset. And many guys missed playing time because of injuries likely CAUSED by steroid (mis)use, or "coming off" PED's. Remember Jason Giambi's bout with "internal parasites" in 2004/2005? McGwire missed almost two whole years during the prime of his career -- much of 1993 and 1994 IIRC. 'Roids or no 'roids, you have to be both incredibly durable (mentally and physically) and incredibly lucky to even approach consecutive games streaks like those. Oh, and you have to be so talented that NOT ONCE over the course of 15+ years does your manager decide to bench you because they deem someone else is in position to do a better job than you on any given night. Having followed the tail end of Cal's career, I was someone who would've considered him "overrated". However, as an adult who both plays rec sports and attempts to get up for work 5+ days/week, you grow to appreciate exactly how impressive Cal Ripken's streak really is.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 31, 2021 23:39:11 GMT -5
Cal Ripken Jr likely was a PED guy with his streak Wow--quite the accusation
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Feb 1, 2021 9:36:12 GMT -5
Cal Ripken Jr likely was a PED guy with his streak Wow--quite the accusation Consider the source.
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