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Post by flutiewasrejected on Feb 9, 2021 9:57:30 GMT -5
Not taking a view, but found this interesting: www.holycross.edu/admission-aid/meet-our-staffHoly Cross admissions staff now lists gender pronouns on their landing page. Sampling of institutions that do not: admission.providence.edu/contact/www.bc.edu/content/bc-web/admission/visit/contact-admission.html#admissionregionwww.bucknell.edu/admissions-aid/admissions/our-staffLike many of the debates of our time, I am interested in the why: 1) Is this out of genuine respect for applicants / visitors who care about gender pronouns or our own staff who are sensitive to this? 2) Is this seen as a differentiator, an example of Holy Cross as a progressive institution? 3) Is this motivated by fear, by keeping in line with the "thought police"? 4) Is this a top-down mandate from senior staff / other departments? HC marketing? 5) Or is this simply the fact that younger counselors manage the website and this is more of a generational trend? Have no idea on the why of the above, but clearly a decision was made on one of the more visited pages of the website. |
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Post by newfieguy74 on Feb 9, 2021 10:15:12 GMT -5
Many younger people feel free to express their sexual identity. When I was at HC even gay students were afraid to come out. Now, students who are gay, bi, trans, non-binary, etc. feel they can be true to who they really are. Good luck to the college that refuses to keep up. If noting else it is acknowledging reality, and beyond that it is expressing institutional respect for individuals. I'm not saying this is easy. I'm pretty old and I've had to do a bit of catch up. A friend who teaches at a prestigious college was slapped on the wrist for forgetting to refer to a student with their preferred "they/them."
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 9, 2021 11:17:31 GMT -5
This is my "why" explanation: Say you had a nickname with one group of peers at one time in your life that could be considered descriptive or funny by some but it annoys you. There's only a few people you currently interact with that call you that and you ask each to stop because you prefer your name over your old nickname. The ones with class refer to you by your name. Holy Cross has class.
Interesting that all the staff listed use the traditional pronouns, but the college is indicating it respects applicants preferences.
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Post by rgs318 on Feb 9, 2021 12:11:07 GMT -5
Well stated, long-suffering. This post comes from someone who was called "Stymie" for too many years.  |
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 9, 2021 12:13:45 GMT -5
Well stated, long-suffering. This post comes from someone who was called "Stymie" for too many years. If it's any consolation, Stymie was my favorite Little Rascal.🙂 |
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Feb 9, 2021 17:16:20 GMT -5
I would have been surprised if Holy Cross wasn’t already doing this.
I wonder why those listed in the athletic staff directory don’t have pronouns attached to their names?
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Post by WCHC Sports on Feb 10, 2021 11:27:01 GMT -5
This is my "why" explanation: Say you had a nickname with one group of peers at one time in your life that could be considered descriptive or funny by some but it annoys you. There's only a few people you currently interact with that call you that and you ask each to stop because you prefer your name over your old nickname. The ones with class refer to you by your name. Holy Cross has class. Interesting that all the staff listed use the traditional pronouns, but the college is indicating it respects applicants preferences. A nickname like "Brian Bacala" is different than a pronoun, in my opinion.
If you look like a woman and I said "She went to go get something," to a third party, I could be corrected by that person with, "You should have said 'they went to go get something,' or, 'he went to go get something.'" You can identify as whatever you want. But if you can, I can too. And I identify something by what it looks like. If you look like a woman, I'm going to say "her/she," and if you look like a man, I am going to say "he/him," etc. If you look like a I-have-no-idea, that's totally fine and I have no problem... but I am probably going to avoid saying much of anything so as not to hurt somebody's feelings. Much like asking a larger person if they're pregnant... a big no-no. Just keep my mouth shut!
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Post by WCHC Sports on Feb 10, 2021 11:27:57 GMT -5
I would have been surprised if Holy Cross wasn’t already doing this. I wonder why those listed in the athletic staff directory don’t have pronouns attached to their names? I find it more odd because each of those people, by apparent pictures, does not seem to list a pronoun that would be contra to the traditional use. I'm a guy, call me "him." Okay... that's like listing "breathes oxygen." We don't need to know/didn't learn anything new here. |
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Post by WCHC Sports on Feb 10, 2021 11:29:29 GMT -5
I also find it interesting that the person that is the head of admissions has Florida, Puerto Rico, and Hawaii as their territories. I hope AMD gets to visit in person! As a salesperson, I'd love those territories myself!
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 10, 2021 21:25:59 GMT -5
This is my "why" explanation: Say you had a nickname with one group of peers at one time in your life that could be considered descriptive or funny by some but it annoys you. There's only a few people you currently interact with that call you that and you ask each to stop because you prefer your name over your old nickname. The ones with class refer to you by your name. Holy Cross has class. Interesting that all the staff listed use the traditional pronouns, but the college is indicating it respects applicants preferences. A nickname like "Brian Bacala" is different than a pronoun, in my opinion.Â
If you look like a woman and I said "She went to go get something," to a third party, I could be corrected by that person with, "You should have said 'they went to go get something,' or, 'he went to go get something.'" You can identify as whatever you want. But if you can, I can too. And I identify something by what it looks like. If you look like a woman, I'm going to say "her/she," and if you look like a man, I am going to say "he/him," etc. If you look like a I-have-no-idea, that's totally fine and I have no problem... but I am probably going to avoid saying much of anything so as not to hurt somebody's feelings. Much like asking a larger person if they're pregnant... a big no-no. Just keep my mouth shut!
It can be a mine field. Even the old "Pat the androgynous one" SNL skit used to make me mildly uncomfortable even though you knew it was a comedy show. |
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Post by WCHC Sports on Feb 11, 2021 9:25:36 GMT -5
Good reference. It was also made into a terrible movie if I remember correctly.
I'm okay with being uncomfortable. I have no right to be comfortable with somebody else's life choices. My only point is that they cannot compel me to agree.
I think back to an email that my brother got a few years ago at his job. It was 100% legitimate as it came signed off on by HR. Each year, they sent a reminder out to existing employees, with an introductory message to new employees that this person (appeared to be a woman for my simple boy/girl dichotomy in my head) was different. This person used a "they" pronoun but also thought of themselves as a fox I think it was. Not a fox like Jimi Hendrix would say, I'm talking about the canid. This person said that they were gender fluid and it would be a thing that sometimes they cared about, sometimes they didn't. If you used "fox" or "they" to refer to them, they would be fine with it 100% of the time. Employees were encouraged to go say hi and ask questions in an effort to make it less weird, put a personal spin on the whole thing, but it ended up being passed around a bit as a "can you believe this?"
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Post by WCHC Sports on Feb 11, 2021 9:28:10 GMT -5
As I rack my brain, there is also a more-famous (if you're in the finance world anyway) example of someone that alternates days, I believe, as well as names, between the male and female version of themselves. At least they used to alternate, I haven't kept up in a few years on the story.
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Post by rgs318 on Feb 11, 2021 9:41:25 GMT -5
One of my students was rejected by his first choice college. A classmate with lower credentials for admission was, in fact, admitted. I called the admissions office to ask why. They listen politely as I ran through all of the young man's credentials. They then explained that both of the applicants wanted on-campus housing and that there where rooms available for women, but no more available for men. I guess now all the young man would have to do is say "I am now identifying as a woman" and he could have been admitted.
Od course that is gross oversimplification, but in this new non-binary world life seems to be more difficult for some folks as we try got accommodate the needs of a few. I hope this can be sorted out soon with greater acceptance for all.
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Post by Tom on Feb 11, 2021 10:03:39 GMT -5
Good reference. It was also made into a terrible movie if I remember correctly. I'm okay with being uncomfortable. I have no right to be comfortable with somebody else's life choices. My only point is that they cannot compel me to agree. I think back to an email that my brother got a few years ago at his job. It was 100% legitimate as it came signed off on by HR. Each year, they sent a reminder out to existing employees, with an introductory message to new employees that this person (appeared to be a woman for my simple boy/girl dichotomy in my head) was different. This person used a "they" pronoun but also thought of themselves as a fox I think it was. Not a fox like Jimi Hendrix would say, I'm talking about the canid. This person said that they were gender fluid and it would be a thing that sometimes they cared about, sometimes they didn't. If you used "fox" or "they" to refer to them, they would be fine with it 100% of the time. Employees were encouraged to go say hi and ask questions in an effort to make it less weird, put a personal spin on the whole thing, but it ended up being passed around a bit as a "can you believe this?" Really? I hope this was not a pet friendly workplace. I would be very angry if one of my co-workers ate my cat. I must lead a sheltered life because this sounds like a joke. I have never heard of people identifying as non-human. This would be a case where it would be wrong to treat a person the way they identify. I believe it is quite legal for a farmer to shoot a fox on his own property. It doesn't seem quite right that a farmer should be legally allowed to shoot the Amazon driver because the driver identifies as a fox |
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Post by WCHC Sports on Feb 11, 2021 10:15:11 GMT -5
Tom, it was outrageous. And I'd bet considering my brother worked with this person and I saw the e-mail that it's real. They wore somewhat business casual clothes, but some more makeup than usual, maybe a few capes or cloaks, headbands with ears, that stuff... Even though they were a "fox," they didn't eat outdoor cats and growl or any of that. Person seemed nice, and I suppose it wasn't distracting them from doing their job, outside of folks taking time to call this out in the open.
The easiest answer? If you can't (logically) beat them, join them. I now identify as The Smartest Person You've Ever Met or Spoken To. At any point if you feel that there's nothing I have said or done to illicit that thought in your mind, please be sensitive to how I identify myself, and not how the world has chosen to label me with their arbitrary and non-biological standards such as "gender," or "moron."
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 11, 2021 11:11:11 GMT -5
elicit
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Post by Chu Chu on Feb 11, 2021 15:02:47 GMT -5
It is a sign of respect for the applicants and the staff.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Feb 11, 2021 15:05:06 GMT -5
How dare you correct TSPYEMOST, aka The Smartest Person You've Ever Met or Spoken To.  |
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